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[hoorayforicecream]

Herr Uhl wrote...

We've seen one do that. Hardly enough to warrant a they.

But if it is, in that case I say that mages murder several people to infuse a demon on several corpses that've been stitched together.

It's not comparable though. We have had plenty of exposure to mages from the circle who don't murder several people to infuse a demon on several corpses that have been stitched together. 

All Qunari we've met have followed the Qun. We've never met a single Qunari that does not rigidly adhere to the Qun. Ever. We've met occasional rare Kossith that haven't, but none have identified themselves as Qunari. The only way you'd be able to find a Saarebas that won't kill itself once the Qun demands it is a non-Qunari Saarebas. Can such a creature exist and still be called a Saarebas? I don't know. I kind of thought that a Saarebas was Qunari, and once it ceased to be Qunari, it wouldn't be a Saarebas anymore.

[Scrydragon]

Do the tranquil really have free will if they don't have the emotions to care about anything? If they don't care, they can essentially be told to do anything by anyone.

*shudder*

I think the Tranquil have it worse. I'd much rather be chained up all the time and still be myself rather than being some living zombie slave.

[Torax]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

We've seen one do that. Hardly enough to warrant a they.

But if it is, in that case I say that mages murder several people to infuse a demon on several corpses that've been stitched together.

It's not comparable though. We have had plenty of exposure to mages from the circle who don't murder several people to infuse a demon on several corpses that have been stitched together. 

All Qunari we've met have followed the Qun. We've never met a single Qunari that does not rigidly adhere to the Qun. Ever. We've met occasional rare Kossith that haven't, but none have identified themselves as Qunari. The only way you'd be able to find a Saarebas that won't kill itself once the Qun demands it is a non-Qunari Saarebas. Can such a creature exist and still be called a Saarebas? I don't know. I kind of thought that a Saarebas was Qunari, and once it ceased to be Qunari, it wouldn't be a Saarebas anymore.

Just like a slave such as Fenris so easily stops being a slave right? If you turn him over to Danarius he instantly reverts back to his old state. Saarebas are not much different. Freedom is an ideal but not a rule to many. Especially those that have lived most of their known lives as slaves. Just like children raised in a Cult have trouble getting past everything they were raised to believe. But slaves are not by choice. To assume a Saarebas being offering slavery or death had a choice in the matter? One was about breathing and the other about death.

edited to add.
The Death is forced for being a mage. Meanwhile non mages who refuse to follow the Qun have a far worse fate than even tranquil.

Fenris: The Qunari waste nothing. They would reeducate you into a loyal follower of the Qun.
Isabela: Pfft. Could I refuse?
Fenris: There's always qamek, which turns you into a mindless laborer. Like I said, they waste nothing.

Modifié par Torax, 18 avril 2011 - 10:27 .

[Herr Uhl]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I kind of thought that a Saarebas was Qunari, and once it ceased to be Qunari, it wouldn't be a Saarebas anymore.

Any mage is a Saarebas. And the non-Qunari, or Vashoth as the Qunari call them, are dissenters. If a Qunari mage dissents he'd cease being Qunari. Clearly some do that. Or did you think the Tal'Vashoth just sprouted from nowhere?

Judgin all Saarebas from the actions of one is a shoddy standpoint, you do realize that right?

[Herr Uhl]

Scrydragon wrote...

Do the tranquil really have free will if they don't have the emotions to care about anything? If they don't care, they can essentially be told to do anything by anyone.

*shudder*

I think the Tranquil have it worse. I'd much rather be chained up all the time and still be myself rather than being some living zombie slave.

The main difference here being that Tranquility is the final step of the  punishment scale for the circles, whereas being caged like a dog is the best you can hope for as a Saarebas. If you were up for being tranquil in a circle you'd be dead amongst Qunari.

[Beerfish]

Scrydragon wrote...

Do the tranquil really have free will if they don't have the emotions to care about anything? If they don't care, they can essentially be told to do anything by anyone.

*shudder*

I think the Tranquil have it worse. I'd much rather be chained up all the time and still be myself rather than being some living zombie slave.

We have a lot of very tough people on these forums that i think totally underestimate the physcial discomfort of being chained, masked, have their lips sewn shut and being treated like a dog and being told what to do for most of their life.  I would say that a lot of people would flat out go insane in short order, unless of course they were brought up their whole lives being treated like a chained servant not allowed to do anything for themself.

[Girl on a Rock]

The Angry One wrote...

Girl on a Rock wrote...

To point to what the Jedi said in an earlier post, the question is subjective and is asked from an outside perspective. This is what the situation would seem like to most people who live in the Western world in the 21st  century. To a Qunari Saarebas raised in Par Vollen/Thedas in the different universe where DA takes place, the situation could be quite different. The Saarebas not only likely  take comfort, even feel a sense of honor, achievement, and fulfillment by living the Qun, but as someone else pointed out, just as the Tranquil are spared the "bad" emotions (although I'd argue that no emotion is inherently bad), they're denied the "good" ones. They are not experiencing life. Saarebas do not live an easy life, but it's a life lived wholly.

Tranquil can be fulfilled in their lot too. Owain finds his state "agreeable" and is content with his job, and doesn't need to be collared, have his lips stiched, controlled with a rod and be told he's less than an animal every day of his life to achieve that.

Tranquil can - though Owain did volunteer for it, so maybe a distinction should be made between those who willingly become Tranquil and those who are forced.

Oh yeah, and for a Saarebas to actually tell you they're content with their duty to the Qun with actual words, it subsequently requires their death, yours and possibly their handler's too.
Fantastic system.

Again, you're coming at it from the viewpoint of someone (I assume) who was born and raised in the Western world in the 21st century. I'm not saying I'd want to be a Saarebas, and gratefully, it's highly, highly improbable to ever be the case. However, I am saying that if you asked a Saarebas who had it worse, he'd probably say the Tranquil did. I also bet that if you asked a Tranquil the same question, he'd say the Saarebas did.

From my personal perspective, if I had to pick one, I'd rather be a Saarebas. Or actually, probably a dead Saarebas.

[Girl on a Rock]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

Here's what I don't get. In DA:O being a tranquil wasn't the death sentence it is depicted to be in DA2. I mean, the tranquil you meet in DA:O, while completely devoid of emotion, were alive and they were in no danger of being possessed by demons. They could live their lives safely and without fear. That can be very appealing to some people. I understand the horribleness of having no emotions, but few to none of the characters made a big deal about it in DA:O. What caused the sudden shift?

I think the reason it became a horrid fate in DA2 is because in DA:O, for the most part, it was shown as something voluntary - except in the case of Jowan in the mage origin, who definitely looked at it as a death sentence of a kind. This is a pretty big difference - like the distinction between assisted suicide and the death penalty in the form of lethal injection.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Tranquil has as much free will as the next person. They are just ruled purely by logic, instead of a mixture of emotion and logic. They are similar to an artificial intellegence in this, except their intellegence aren't artificial.

[Torax]

Also keep in mind that some people even in the real world are lost in their emotions. Anxiety about the situations they live in and things of that nature. There are even how many motivational speakers that just talk about ways to feel content with their lives. People may look at the Tranquil as zombies or slaves but imagine not having to worry about things out of your control? Some are so stressed by things they have no effect over that they need therapy to survive it. So imagine as a mage feeling the pressure of demons. Would it be so wrong for some who already wish to not use magic anymore to ask to be made Tranquil. At least once Tranquil they can still choose things like leaving the Circle. The Qunari would make all non mages become mindless laborers. That is a far worse situation all around.

You can tell yourself that emotions make you human. Yes and no. Emotions are only a part of it all. The ability to reason is far more important. Tranquil are still allowed to reason. So I don't think it's as bad as a group of tortured slaves who are not even allowed to reason besides the one time we get to see them decide to die...

edited to add.

For what is the most harsh and to me the worst.

Qamek > Saarebas > Tranquil (Against their will) > Tranquil (Voluntery)

Saarebas choose their station only as a life or death. Qamek is forced by all non mages who refuse to the Qun. Neither get to truly reason for themselves in the situations they are thrust in.

Modifié par Torax, 19 avril 2011 - 01:05 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Scrydragon wrote...

Do the tranquil really have free will if they don't have the emotions to care about anything? If they don't care, they can essentially be told to do anything by anyone.

*shudder*

I think the Tranquil have it worse. I'd much rather be chained up all the time and still be myself rather than being some living zombie slave.

The main difference here being that Tranquility is the final step of the  punishment scale for the circles, whereas being caged like a dog is the best you can hope for as a Saarebas. If you were up for being tranquil in a circle you'd be dead amongst Qunari.

But at least it would be a voluntary death, whereas many tranquil become so against their will.

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Tranquil, because it's effectively the same as being dead.

I agree. The Saarebas might have the opportunity to escape Qunari captivity. The tranquil can never escape what's been done to them.

[TEWR]

Beerfish wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Tranquil. At least Saarebas can still feel emotions.

By seeing what Ketojan did and how he viewed things he was almost equally emotionally fettered.  He was happy and thankful that the hero freed him but still felt he had to kill himself.  To go along with the extreme physical discomfort.  Emotions are over rated. 

lol yes they are.

But if you think about it, Ketojan does display emotions from the limited amount of time we see him:

• He found joy in serving the Qun, even if it meant his death.
• He showed a little anger when you bring up the idea of him becoming a Tal-Vashoth. Or would that have been contempt?
• There was also some anger at Petrice after the Arvaarad battle. That's what it sounded like to me.

Being Tranquil makes someone more susceptible to being used unjustly by the Templars. It begs the question, "Would you rather not be a threat to anyone, yet lose your self? Or would you rather not be a threat to anyone, keep your emotions, but live in one way for the rest of your life?"

The sewing of a Saarebas' mouth can be undone, can't it?

As far as we know, a Tranquil cannot be permanently restored back to their original state of being.

So I'd say Saarebas have it better. They accept their role in society, dutifully live it out, and are honored for living it. And should one day they feel the Qun is not for them, they can try to leave. Whether or not they succeed depends on the scenario and circumstances.

[dgcatanisiri]

Saarebas or tranquil... Hm...

I'll take death, thank you. As a tranquil you have no emotions and a level of logic that Vulcans would either die for or be disturbed by, I don't know which that doesn't allow for even curiosity and desire. As a Saarebas, you can either follow the qun and be kept on a leash, effectively a slave, no matter what they say about 'honoring' these followers of the qun, or be considered a demon's pawn and killed. Neither option appeals.

[Serelir]

Can the Tranquil have sexual relationships?

[Herr Uhl]

Tuilinn Celeborne wrote...

Can the Tranquil have sexual relationships?

Probably, not that I see why they'd want to though.

[Wulfram]

PurebredCorn wrote...

I would imagine they can, but it wouldn't be for pleasure... more for practical baby making purposes.

What's practical about making babies?  It's a lot of hassle for an investment that won't start paying back for 18 years, if ever.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Tranquil, because it's effectively the same as being dead.

I agree. The Saarebas might have the opportunity to escape Qunari captivity. The tranquil can never escape what's been done to them.

Their knowledge of alternatives and the world outside the qun is essentially nothing however, they are raised to be in the mindset that this is what the qun demands, they are doing a great honor for their people and this is how things should be. And with 0 outside influance they fully believe this, not to mention their higher brain functions seem to be locked down from that control rod thingy. Their chances of escape are pretty much 0 and in the extremely rare event they are given the oppotunity  they wont want to as we saw with Katojan

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 19 avril 2011 - 05:53 .

[Icy Magebane]

I doubt the Tranquil would have any interest in procreation. Maybe if there were no other humans alive, but otherwise, they would probably see no need to personally create new life.

[Augustei]

Wulfram wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

I would imagine they can, but it wouldn't be for pleasure... more for practical baby making purposes.

What's practical about making babies?  It's a lot of hassle for an investment that won't start paying back for 18 years, if ever.

The process itself is pretty damn awesome and not something one can easily deny themselves lol.

[Herr Uhl]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

What's practical about making babies?  It's a lot of hassle for an investment that won't start paying back for 18 years, if ever.

The process itself is pretty damn awesome and not something one can easily deny themselves lol.

You forget that they don't feel pleasure or desire.

[The Angry One]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

Tranquil can - though Owain did volunteer for it, so maybe a distinction should be made between those who willingly become Tranquil and those who are forced.

The fact remains people do volunteer for it.
I doubt anyone volunteers to be a Saarebas.
Yes, both are an alternative to death, but I'd say more people would more likely be Tranquilled than die, and rather die than be Saarebas.

Again, you're coming at it from the viewpoint of someone (I assume) who was born and raised in the Western world in the 21st century. I'm not saying I'd want to be a Saarebas, and gratefully, it's highly, highly improbable to ever be the case. However, I am saying that if you asked a Saarebas who had it worse, he'd probably say the Tranquil did. I also bet that if you asked a Tranquil the same question, he'd say the Saarebas did.

From my personal perspective, if I had to pick one, I'd rather be a Saarebas. Or actually, probably a dead Saarebas.

Point is, you could ask a Saarebas all you want. They've never tell you, unless their handler lets them. At which point you both have to die.
A Tranquil at least can communicate. A Saarebas is forbidden even this.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Tranquil, because it's effectively the same as being dead.

I agree. The Saarebas might have the opportunity to escape Qunari captivity. The tranquil can never escape what's been done to them.

Um, I seem to have got that wrong.  I must have read the question as "what's better?".

Because I'd rather be dead than be a Saarebas