144 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I agree. The Saarebas might have the opportunity to escape Qunari captivity. The tranquil can never escape what's been done to them.

Their knowledge of alternatives and the world outside the qun is essentially nothing however, they are raised to be in the mindset that this is what the qun demands, they are doing a great honor for their people and this is how things should be. And with 0 outside influance they fully believe this, not to mention their higher brain functions seem to be locked down from that control rod thingy. Their chances of escape are pretty much 0 and in the extremely rare event they are given the oppotunity  they wont want to as we saw with Katojan

They still have a chance to make something of their lives outside the Qun, while the tranquil have no possibility to regain their humanity. The Saarebas could escape the Qunari, since we encounter them among the Tal-Vashoth.

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

They still have a chance to make something of their lives outside the Qun, while the tranquil have no possibility to regain their humanity. The Saarebas could escape the Qunari, since we encounter them among the Tal-Vashoth.

And since they're still collared and masked, how do we know they're not just being controlled by a Tal-Vashoth.
Most Tal-Vashoth seem to follow some ideals of the Qun in the most hypocritical way possible ("The Qun is great and knows all! ... it just doesn't apply to me or my friends. Yeah.") so they probably still view Saarebas as things to be used.

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They still have a chance to make something of their lives outside the Qun, while the tranquil have no possibility to regain their humanity. The Saarebas could escape the Qunari, since we encounter them among the Tal-Vashoth.

And since they're still collared and masked, how do we know they're not just being controlled by a Tal-Vashoth.
Most Tal-Vashoth seem to follow some ideals of the Qun in the most hypocritical way possible ("The Qun is great and knows all! ... it just doesn't apply to me or my friends. Yeah.") so they probably still view Saarebas as things to be used.

Mary Kirby wrote...

Mages are tolerated by other Tal'Vashoth, but they're not really popular. Without anyone to train them, how likely do you think it really is that Vashoth mages live to old age without becoming abominations or accidentally murdering people?

Link.

As they're not an organization, your mileage may wary though.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They still have a chance to make something of their lives outside the Qun, while the tranquil have no possibility to regain their humanity. The Saarebas could escape the Qunari, since we encounter them among the Tal-Vashoth.

And since they're still collared and masked, how do we know they're not just being controlled by a Tal-Vashoth.
Most Tal-Vashoth seem to follow some ideals of the Qun in the most hypocritical way possible ("The Qun is great and knows all! ... it just doesn't apply to me or my friends. Yeah.") so they probably still view Saarebas as things to be used.

I wasn't discussing the lifestyle of the Tal-Vashoth, but the fact that the Saarebas were outside of Qunari control. Sister Petrice asking Hawke to to help with Ketojan is an example that the Saarebas have a chance at freedom, no matter how slim it might be. The same can't be said for the tranquil; they can never escape what's been done to them in any circumstance.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They still have a chance to make something of their lives outside the Qun, while the tranquil have no possibility to regain their humanity. The Saarebas could escape the Qunari, since we encounter them among the Tal-Vashoth.

And since they're still collared and masked, how do we know they're not just being controlled by a Tal-Vashoth.
Most Tal-Vashoth seem to follow some ideals of the Qun in the most hypocritical way possible ("The Qun is great and knows all! ... it just doesn't apply to me or my friends. Yeah.") so they probably still view Saarebas as things to be used.

I wasn't discussing the lifestyle of the Tal-Vashoth, but the fact that the Saarebas were outside of Qunari control. Sister Petrice asking Hawke to to help with Ketojan is an example that the Saarebas have a chance at freedom, no matter how slim it might be. The same can't be said for the tranquil; they can never escape what's been done to them in any circumstance.

But what about all the Mages who don't want the power to wield magic. It's something they were born with and a burden some may wish to be gone for good. It's easy to think it is death. But I doubt most are by force besides select places. Especially if we are using someone like Anders as a knowledge base. He can't even be consistant with what was going in his own head let alone the entire World. I'd rather be Tranquil than have my mouth tied shut. My eyes being dug in by spikes on a heavy metal plate tied to my head and a huge collor and wrist bands all to hinder my very existence. The act of feeling is overated if it means being in constant pain for every waking moment for just being a mage.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

But what about all the Mages who don't want the power to wield magic. It's something they were born with and a burden some may wish to be gone for good.

What about the people who don't want to be forced into a life of servitude?
 

Torax wrote...

It's easy to think it is death.

Because it strips them of their humanity, so IMHO, it's worse than death.

Torax wrote...

But I doubt most are by force besides select places. Especially if we are using someone like Anders as a knowledge base. He can't even be consistant with what was going in his own head let alone the entire World.

Karl said he'd rather die than live his life as a templar puppet, so Anders has nothing to do with it.
 

Torax wrote...

I'd rather be Tranquil than have my mouth tied shut. My eyes being dug in by spikes on a heavy metal plate tied to my head and a huge collor and wrist bands all to hinder my very existence. The act of feeling is overated if it means being in constant pain for every waking moment for just being a mage.

I'm addressing the difference between being forced into servitude and being given a lobotomy. The person forced into servitude has a chance at escape, no matter how limited that opportunity might be. The person who is given a lobotomy can't get their humanity back.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If they don't want a life of servitude, they should have thought about that, before they commited the crime which caused them to be tranquilized.

And the Tranquil aren't slaves. They are free to go whereever they want. They are not mages anymore, so the Templars have no jurisdiction over them. Likewise, a Saarebas is no slave. He is Qunari. He has a role in society which is to be Saarebas, he is just as restricted as any other role within the Qun.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If they don't want a life of servitude, they should have thought about that, before they commited the crime which caused them to be tranquilized.

Like Karl, who was made tranquil despite passing his Harrowing in Ferelden and not wanting to be made tranquil?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And the Tranquil aren't slaves.

When I mentioned servitude, I was talking about the Qunari mages being kept on leashes and having no agency of their own.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are free to go whereever they want. They are not mages anymore, so the Templars have no jurisdiction over them.

The tranquil have been given a lobotomy, let's not pretend it's not a factor in how the tranquil mages behave.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Likewise, a Saarebas is no slave. He is Qunari. He has a role in society which is to be Saarebas, he is just as restricted as any other role within the Qun.

The Saarebas are kept on leashes and denied any agency to their actions. They're forced into the servitude of another, let's not pretend otherwise.

[Torax]

Again Lob you are using Kirkwall for your basis. You are taking instances of the WORST CASE SCENARIO to judge the entire concept. That is attempting to judge the case for every other case out there when it did not appear that way in Origins. Only Jowan and his girlfriend seemed to dislike the Tranquil thing. Turns out the reason he was being made Tranquil was cause they suspected him of being a Blood Magic. They were right after all. Selective memory is what you are using to judge all tranquil. Try to use Karl as a shield of against his will. This something that only verified past that by Anders who is so Bias I figure he is making crap up as he goes to justify his hatred. He can't even be straight about what is going on his head. I can't use his opinion on the Chantry or Circle as a valid case. He like so many on the forums only look for the dark and evil. Anders says how he never knew a mage who was seeking power. I bet he just tells that to himself to justify his deep hatred of Templars.

Don't sit at your computer and try to use the few bad cases that we even get confirmed as your basis for Tranquils. If you want to use that weak argument for why it's worse than Saarebas which are basically tortured slaves? Then argue about Saarebas versus Qamek. That is the only one that is confirmed against their will via Frenris' conversation with Isabela. Or is your selective memory turning every last Tranquil into a Mindless Laborer. The only Mindless Laborers ever mentioned in is the ones who refuse the Qun. It's what they do to all who refuse the Qun.

Modifié par Torax, 19 avril 2011 - 10:14 .

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Again Lob you are using Kirkwall for your basis. You are taking instances of the WORST CASE SCENARIO to judge the entire concept.

Considering even First Enchanter Irving didn't get to see the evidence Jowan or have a say in the Rite of Tranquility against Jowan, I disagree.

Torax wrote...

That is attempting to judge the case for every other case out there when it did not appear that way in Origins. Only Jowan and his girlfriend seemed to dislike the Tranquil thing. Turns out the reason he was being made Tranquil was cause they suspected him of being a Blood Magic. They were right after all. Selective memory is what you are using to judge all tranquil.

You're blatantly ignoring the fact that there are mages who are made tranquil against their will, and we only need to look to Aneirin to see that not all accusations made by the templars against mages are accurate.

Torax wrote...

Try to use Karl as a shield of against his will. This something that only verified past that by Anders who is so Bias I figure he is making crap up as he goes to justify his hatred. He can't even be straight about what is going on his head.

Or we can take Karl at his word when he begs for death instead of living the rest of his life as a tranquil mage.

Torax wrote...

I can't use his opinion on the Chantry or Circle as a valid case. He like so many on the forums only look for the dark and evil. Anders says how he never knew a mage who was seeking power. I bet he just tells that to himself to justify his deep hatred of Templars.

Or he's accurate since he probably knows mages who would rather live free through the underground railroad.

Torax wrote...

Don't sit at your computer and try to use the few bad cases that we even get confirmed as your basis for Tranquils. If you want to use that weak argument for why it's worse than Saarebas which are basically tortured slaves?

The only weak argument is yours when you blatantly ignore what I said to turn this into another debate about the Chantry and the mages. Didn't you get tired of that when you did it at the Merrill thread when I asked about Merrill and the Dalish? Try to keep this on-topic.

Torax wrote...

Then argue about Saarebas versus Qamek. That is the only one that is confirmed against their will via Frenris' conversation with Isabela. Or is your selective memory turning every last Tranquil into a Mindless Laborer. The only Mindless Laborers ever mentioned in is the ones who refuse the Qun. It's what they do to all who refuse the Qun.

Being forced into servitude doesn't sound as bad as being given a lobotomy, since the chance at being free is present in the former and never in the latter.

[Torax]

Qamek makes people mindless laborers that they make work in mines and other physical tasks. They are actually worse than what Tranquil are. They aren't even allowed reason. It's why Fenris suggests Isabela to thank Hawke...

Modifié par Torax, 19 avril 2011 - 11:09 .

[Torax]

btw let me list all the ones who were against being made trainquil.

Jowan (A blood mage)
Karl (Mage conspiring w/ the underground to free mages)
Anders (An abomination)

Who is this source who doesn't really deserve to be a Tranquil for doing something wrong and or breaking the rules of the circle? That other mage that was probably trying to escape that Alrik catches? Lets not pretend they are all innocent...

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If they don't want a life of servitude, they should have thought about that, before they commited the crime which caused them to be tranquilized.

Like Karl, who was made tranquil despite passing his Harrowing in Ferelden and not wanting to be made tranquil?

What does it matter it is against his will? The rite of tranquility has been used as punished for a long time. What Anders says about its illegality is complete and utter bullsh*t. Karl was a rebellious mage who planned to escape the Circle. That is why he was made tranquil.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And the Tranquil aren't slaves.

When I mentioned servitude, I was talking about the Qunari mages being kept on leashes and having no agency of their own.

Which Qunari have an agency? All the Qunari serve the Qun, it is a Saarebas' role to be just that. They are no more restricted in their role than any other Qunari.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are free to go whereever they want. They are not mages anymore, so the Templars have no jurisdiction over them.

The tranquil have been given a lobotomy, let's not pretend it's not a factor in how the tranquil mages behave.

The only factor for a tranquil is logic. They are not forced to obey the Templars in anyway, many of the tranquil simply logically deduce, that it would be the most satisfying existance to stay within the Circle, since the rest of the world would still fear them.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Likewise, a Saarebas is no slave. He is Qunari. He has a role in society which is to be Saarebas, he is just as restricted as any other role within the Qun.

The Saarebas are kept on leashes and denied any agency to their actions. They're forced into the servitude of another, let's not pretend otherwise.

They are just as forced to be Saarebas as the Arvaarad is forced to be Arvaarad. It is the way of the Qun.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Qamek makes people mindless laborers that they make work in mines and other physical tasks. They are actually worse than what Tranquil are. They aren't even allowed reason. It's why Fenris suggests Isabela to thank Hawke...

Having the capacity to choose and having no ability to make a choice are two very different things, Torax. The Qunari mages might be brainwashed, but they can ultimately have the possibility (no matter how slim that may be) to live outside of the Qun, as Ketojan did. They are not worse than the tranquil are, who have no chance at all for the opportunity to regain their lost humanity.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

btw let me list all the ones who were against being made trainquil.

Jowan (A blood mage)
Karl (Mage conspiring w/ the underground to free mages)
Anders (An abomination)

Who is this source who doesn't really deserve to be a Tranquil for doing something wrong and or breaking the rules of the circle? That other mage that was probably trying to escape that Alrik catches? Lets not pretend they are all innocent...

You are putting forth your speculation on Karl as fact. There's no in-game evidence that says Karl was part of the mage underground. He's a Harrowed mage, and writing letters to Anders by descrbing what's going on in the Gallows shouldn't condemn him to the Rite of Tranquility. And you're putting forth Ella as a criminal? She's only wanted to see her mother. She's one of the children who Bethany mentions in her letter, which makes Ser Alrik not only a man who threatens rape, but rape against a child...

[Torax]

A Qunari mage who refuses their role is likely killed. All non mages however that refuse their role are treated by what Fernis calls Qamek making them mindless laborers. That part you gloss over which is the ONLY one that truly fits your definition of Tranquility to the letter.

[The Angry One]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are just as forced to be Saarebas as the Arvaarad is forced to be Arvaarad. It is the way of the Qun.

The whole way of the Qun is crap and basically breeds automatons, but even so, the Arvaraad can speak. He can communicate with others without forfeiting his life and theirs. He can participate in state-sanctioned celebrations and parties (I'm certain Sarebaas cannot). He can have time to himself and possibly engage in hobbies (Sten plays with kittens don't you know).
A Sarebaas has none of that, they are controlled not only by the Qun, but by a freaking control rod.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Like Karl, who was made tranquil despite passing his Harrowing in Ferelden and not wanting to be made tranquil?

What does it matter it is against his will? The rite of tranquility has been used as punished for a long time. What Anders says about its illegality is complete and utter bullsh*t. Karl was a rebellious mage who planned to escape the Circle. That is why he was made tranquil.

It matters because Karl is a Harrowed mage, and the Rite of Tranquility is illegal against Harrowed mages unless they specifically ask to be made tranquil. Anders escaped the Circle several times, and he wasn't made tranquil.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

When I mentioned servitude, I was talking about the Qunari mages being kept on leashes and having no agency of their own.

Which Qunari have an agency? All the Qunari serve the Qun, it is a Saarebas' role to be just that. They are no more restricted in their role than any other Qunari.

There's a difference between choosing to follow the Qun and getting a lobotomy. I honestly shouldn't have to explain the difference to you.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The tranquil have been given a lobotomy, let's not pretend it's not a factor in how the tranquil mages behave.

The only factor for a tranquil is logic. They are not forced to obey the Templars in anyway, many of the tranquil simply logically deduce, that it would be the most satisfying existance to stay within the Circle, since the rest of the world would still fear them.

The tranquil mages have a lobotomy because they are cut off from the Fade, and they have no emotions.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Saarebas are kept on leashes and denied any agency to their actions. They're forced into the servitude of another, let's not pretend otherwise.

They are just as forced to be Saarebas as the Arvaarad is forced to be Arvaarad. It is the way of the Qun.

It doesn't change that the Saarebas are forced into servitude when the choice is between submission and death.

[Torax]

Ah so Tranquility is only for non Harrowed Mages. What happens if you catch one doing blood magic, trying to leave the tower without permission, trying to conspire to get many mages out at the same time? You as in breaking rules that are in place for good reason. Should they just slap them on the wrist making it hardly a punishment? Or maybe they should just kill them all instead of making them Tranquil so they can still live?

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Ah so Tranquility is only for non Harrowed Mages. What happens if you catch one doing blood magic, trying to leave the tower without permission, trying to conspire to get many mages out at the same time? You as in breaking rules that are in place for good reason. Should they just slap them on the wrist making it hardly a punishment? Or maybe they should just kill them all instead of making them Tranquil so they can still live?

Look at Aneirin the Healer; they claimed the fourteen year old was a maleficar and hunted him down to kill him. Anders said they would probably label him a maleficar and kill him eventually because he kept running way from the Circle of Ferelden. Blood magic is supposed to be a death sentence, which is why the Warden is threatened with death in the disbaled blood mage scene at the end of "A Broken Circle." You can see the scene here.

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

Ah so Tranquility is only for non Harrowed Mages. What happens if you catch one doing blood magic, trying to leave the tower without permission, trying to conspire to get many mages out at the same time? You as in breaking rules that are in place for good reason. Should they just slap them on the wrist making it hardly a punishment? Or maybe they should just kill them all instead of making them Tranquil so they can still live?

Didn't David Gaider say it was illegal to use the Rite (or is it Right? **** I don't know) of Tranquility on a Harrowed mage unless there was good provocation/reason to do so?

[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torax wrote...

Ah so Tranquility is only for non Harrowed Mages. What happens if you catch one doing blood magic, trying to leave the tower without permission, trying to conspire to get many mages out at the same time? You as in breaking rules that are in place for good reason. Should they just slap them on the wrist making it hardly a punishment? Or maybe they should just kill them all instead of making them Tranquil so they can still live?

Didn't David Gaider say it was illegal to use the Rite (or is it Right? **** I don't know) of Tranquility on a Harrowed mage unless there was good provocation/reason to do so?

And I'm pretty sure the things I listed that harrowed mages could do would probably warrant death but could also depending on the Templar just be made Tranquil instead.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Like Karl, who was made tranquil despite passing his Harrowing in Ferelden and not wanting to be made tranquil?

What does it matter it is against his will? The rite of tranquility has been used as punished for a long time. What Anders says about its illegality is complete and utter bullsh*t. Karl was a rebellious mage who planned to escape the Circle. That is why he was made tranquil.

It matters because Karl is a Harrowed mage, and the Rite of Tranquility is illegal against Harrowed mages unless they specifically ask to be made tranquil. Anders escaped the Circle several times, and he wasn't made tranquil.

That speaks more of the First Enchanter of Ferelden than of the law. The matter of fact is that it is NOT illegal to tranquilize a harrowed mage. Tranquilization is used as a punishment for mages who show no desire to control their magic, or to follow the Circle's rules. Karl was insubordinate and plotted with the mage underground. Thus he was made tranquil. Fully legal.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The tranquil have been given a lobotomy, let's not pretend it's not a factor in how the tranquil mages behave.

The only factor for a tranquil is logic. They are not forced to obey the Templars in anyway, many of the tranquil simply logically deduce, that it would be the most satisfying existance to stay within the Circle, since the rest of the world would still fear them.

The tranquil mages have a lobotomy because they are cut off from the Fade, and they have no emotions.

Uhm... Yes. And? Just because they have no emotion does not mean they have no preference. It means they can't feal love, annoyance, friendship, all that kind of stuff. It has no influence on wether or not they do as the Templars say.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Saarebas are kept on leashes and denied any agency to their actions. They're forced into the servitude of another, let's not pretend otherwise.

They are just as forced to be Saarebas as the Arvaarad is forced to be Arvaarad. It is the way of the Qun.

It doesn't change that the Saarebas are forced into servitude when the choice is between submission and death.

They are not forced. They do so willingly.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are just as forced to be Saarebas as the Arvaarad is forced to be Arvaarad. It is the way of the Qun.

The whole way of the Qun is crap and basically breeds automatons, but even so, the Arvaraad can speak. He can communicate with others without forfeiting his life and theirs. He can participate in state-sanctioned celebrations and parties (I'm certain Sarebaas cannot). He can have time to himself and possibly engage in hobbies (Sten plays with kittens don't you know).
A Sarebaas has none of that, they are controlled not only by the Qun, but by a freaking control rod.

I am very certain that an Arvaarad have no downtime at all. His job is to be on constant watch for "evil". His job is to hunt down Tal-Vasoth and to take care of the Saarebas. Since a mage require constant vigilance, so does an Arvaarad have to be constantly vigilant.