16 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

It seems to me there is something rather important left unsaid in DA2: the reason why Cassandra is investigating Hawke.

Replaying the game, it seems to me that it's the case that Cassandra doesn't just think Hawke conspired to create the uprising (one way or another) but that he did it using the idol. Whereas it happens that the Champion of Kirkwall is just someone who by circumstance was caught up in the centre of this storm, and we see who Hawke is despite these unchanging events.

To me, though, this distinction between the legend and the truth is something that never quite came across well, after the initial exaggeration section.

I personally think a "this is what people thought" clip before each Act would have been quite useful in establishing this. Thoughts?

[Rifneno]

I'm still lost on why Cassandra is investigating Hawke.  She grills Varric about how "the champion must've known what was down there!" as though Hawke unleashed some great evil in the Deep Roads.  And he did, of course, the lyrium idol.  But Cassandra clearly had no knowledge of the idol's connection to either Bartrand or Meredith.  So what was she talking about?! 

[Fast Jimmy]

That would have been kinda cool, and could have also reflected the type of choices you made in-game, like if you were a mage sympathizer, the "legend" could have said "he consorted with blood mages and demons in order to overthrow the Chantry" or if you were a templar sympathizer "he brutally treated mages and supported the Templars tyrannical regime."

Or something like that.

[Fast Jimmy]

Rifneno wrote...

I'm still lost on why Cassandra is investigating Hawke.  She grills Varric about how "the champion must've known what was down there!" as though Hawke unleashed some great evil in the Deep Roads.  And he did, of course, the lyrium idol.  But Cassandra clearly had no knowledge of the idol's connection to either Bartrand or Meredith.  So what was she talking about?! 

Nargles.

Clearly... Nargles.

[upsettingshorts]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That would have been kinda cool, and could have also reflected the type of choices you made in-game,

It could have been like Alpha Protocol's framed narrative, you mean?

I still chuckle at the idea that Mike Laidlaw claimed DA2 was the first reactive framed narrative, as if that game didn't exist.

[Plaintiff]

I thought the overall reason was pretty clear: she believes the Champion is the catalyste for the conflict (not entirely false). His name is a rallying cry for the mages or alternately the Templars, and as such, he has influence. He could help end the bloodshed before it gets worse.

As for the idol bit... well I think it's possible that this new type of lyrium or whatever the hell it is has played a role that we're unaware of, and that might be what Cassandra is referring to.

DA2 leaves a lot of questions unanswered, I think and hope that DA3 will clear some of this up. I have no problem with leaving a game open-ended, as long as it looks like they're going somewhere with it.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It could have been like Alpha Protocol's framed narrative, you mean?

I still chuckle at the idea that Mike Laidlaw claimed DA2 was the first reactive framed narrative, as if that game didn't exist.

More ironic based on the fact it, y'know, actually used the narrative as a narrative in a powerful way.

Nothing beat being in a room with that Halbech guy. I think Bioware's first mistake was using Varric and not Hawke.

Rifneno wrote...

I'm still lost on why Cassandra is
investigating Hawke.  She grills Varric about how "the champion must've
known what was down there!" as though Hawke unleashed some great evil in
the Deep Roads.  And he did, of course, the lyrium idol.  But Cassandra
clearly had no knowledge of the idol's connection to either Bartrand or
Meredith.  So what was she talking about?! 

I can't take the ending. Honestly. All those fights even on casual are just a pain now. After beating the game on nigthtmare I'm not replaying Golems Gone Wild. Does Cassandra actually go "wtf, idol?" for Meredith? 

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That would have been kinda cool, and
could have also reflected the type of choices you made in-game, like if
you were a mage sympathizer, the "legend" could have said "he consorted
with blood mages and demons in order to overthrow the Chantry" or if you
were a templar sympathizer "he brutally treated mages and supported the
Templars tyrannical regime."

Or something like that.

Yes. This, and having a 'break out of the Gallows' Act II intro for either Bethany or Hawke (with the Arishok asking for Hawke either way, and the Vicount protecting Hawke/Bethany to ensure stability in Kirkwall) would have let you see the inside of the Gallows to really appreciate the plight of the mages.

The more I think about it, the more my problem with DA2 is that even though it narrowed the scope like I support in general, it didn't actually use the narrowed scope to create a tighether narrative. So you have Hawke who has a family and a background and a potential political thriller leading to a rebelion, but then the game still has that open narrative structure Bioware uses for most of its games.

People say DA2 (from a design, not execution standpoint) changed too much... but I think (aside from it appearing rushed) one problem it had was that it didn't change enough to accomodate the direction of the story.

Man, the more I think about it, the more it's like an Obsidian title in unfulfilled potential.

Modifié par In Exile, 18 avril 2011 - 01:26 .

[_Aine_]

There were two times where the "framed narrative" was used creatively (and somewhat effectively, only once effectively if I am being critical instead of generous <which I am not today lol>). Once at the beginning before you get to choose your appearance with the slightly dramatized opening ogre fight thingie...and the best one was when Varric told the story of what happened that night at Bartrand's estate.

Otherwise, it seemed to be used more to explain away a jumping of time...and yet, there was no real explanation used in these periods, you only know it marked a break, but it didn't explain or hint at things, it was just cassandra confronting Varric usually.

I have to agree that the story was TOO narrow to not have some consequences to story choices. (you need more narrow dictates for a narrow scoped tale perhaps)  If you side with the mages, why would the templars keep asking for your help? Likewise, the reverse. It wanted to tell a particular story, but left you running around pleasing both sides.

Just like it was more of an action game in RPG clothing ( or is that RPG in action-title clothing?hmm) likewise it was a very specific story they left open to give an illusion of choice that was really inconsequential.

It *could* have worked, is the saddest thing. You can almost see it as this great hypothetical idea of, errr, awesome.... but the way it all came together and gelled, didn't get it there. So close you can see it, you just can't get there.

EDIT:  And not once did I ever consider myself the Champion of anything in this game to be honest.  Why, because I got a title?  I got a title fighting a battle I would rather not have been forced to fight for a companion who did something i didn't even know about.  There is no champion in that.  I didn't save Kirkwall from crap.  

Modifié par shantisands, 18 avril 2011 - 02:08 .

[AlexXIV]

What really is wrong with the story is all the handwaving and lack of explaination. I mean it is supposed to show how a normal guy/girl becomes a hero. The only real reason I can make out is Hawke being the nosey type. As in running around and asking everyone if they have quest or something. That's so boring MMO like that I really have a hard time figuring out what Bioware was trying to accomplish. They could have had Hawke's family or friends/comrades be a tie in. Or maybe things of some political value, if Hawke for example actually tried to 'rise to power' and had to make political choices. But basically the game is about missed chances from writer's side. They seem to have thought making Hawke running around killing stuff is a good tie in into the big main events. Which I really wouldn't expect of a good writer, or writer team. Seems to me they were just not up for the challenge.The more I think about it the less do I have the feeling that actually giving them more time to develop it would have helped much. The whole story is just a series of disconnected events that happen because Hawke is very busy running around in the street day and night and sticking his/her nose into other people problems.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[88mphSlayer]

i think the problem with the varric narration as a story progression is players have no idea what the story is of the true modern timeperiod when the interrogation is actually taking place

you look at the Assassins Creed franchise and there's a modern-day story going on in the background with a secret war between abstergo (templars) and modern assassins as everybody is traversing the world looking for the piece of eden that desmond's ancestors know the location of

what is there going on in Dragon Age 2 during the narration's true timepoint? nobody really knows, we know after the very end that a mage vs. templar war is going on and that the chantry is in trouble, we know at the very very ending that hawke and the warden have disappeared... there's nothing else to go on and most of said information isn't provided until the very ending - if they had established that the chantry was at war and hawke had disappeared at the very beginning of the game we might've been more interested in what's going on in this future/modern plot, and perhaps felt more forward progression due to wanting to know why hawke can't be found (tho that might've led to disappointment anyways without any resolution on the idol)

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 18 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[The Morrigan]

The framed narrative was pointless. Cassandra talks about things that mean nothing to the player until they play the following act. There wasn't one moment during those scenes where it raised interesting questions for me, or made me wonder about what was to come. Well, besides the foreshadowing of the Big Bad in the Deep Roads, which was a let down.

In Exile wrote...
Yes. This, and having a 'break out of the Gallows' Act II intro for either Bethany or Hawke (with the Arishok asking for Hawke either way, and the Vicount protecting Hawke/Bethany to ensure stability in Kirkwall) would have let you see the inside of the Gallows to really appreciate the plight of the mages.

I kept hoping something like this would happen throughout the game and was sorely disappointed when it didn't. The narrative kind of failed to make me feel part of the mage/templar conflict, particularly as I was playing a mage and Carver died in the Deep Roads. All I had was crazy Anders telling me how nasty the Gallows was in place of pillow talk.

The more I think about it, the more my problem with DA2 is that even though it narrowed the scope like I support in general, it didn't actually use the narrowed scope to create a tighether narrative. So you have Hawke who has a family and a background and a potential political thriller leading to a rebelion, but then the game still has that open narrative structure Bioware uses for most of its games.

People say DA2 (from a design, not execution standpoint) changed too much... but I think (aside from it appearing rushed) one problem it had was that it didn't change enough to accomodate the direction of the story.

Man, the more I think about it, the more it's like an Obsidian title in unfulfilled potential.

Yep, it makes me sadface just thinking about it. DA2 was an experiment, a sadly failed experiment (in terms of reaction, at least). The worst part about it is it means they may not try it again. I'd rather they took DA2 and worked on making it its own beast; just give it a subtitle so no one can complain.

shantisands wrote...
And not once did I ever
consider myself the Champion of anything in this game to be honest.
 Why, because I got a title?  I got a title fighting a battle I
would rather not have been forced to fight for a companion who did
something i didn't even know about.  There is no champion in that.  I didn't save Kirkwall from crap.  

Agreed. I got the idea that Hawke became personally more powerful and (for some reason) every one and his Arishok decided to poke and prod her into helping them, but she was a Champion in name only. She did one awesome thing for the city basically because no one wanted to deal with the Qunari and Hawke was the last person to say "shotgun not it". So the populace gives her a shiny title... and for some reason that makes her a Hero (capital H).

Would've been better if Bioware had focused more on the idea that Hawke's legend is blown way out of proportion... because it is. Mostly by the marketing team. [/snark] The framed narrative implies that the stories about Hawke are exaggerated, but this doesn't ever really get developed or looked at in detail. I guess we can but hope that DA3 (or whatever) will have plenty of references to Hawke's non-existant epic adventures and give Hawke the option to say "Uh, I did what now?"

[88mphSlayer]

The Morrigan wrote...

Yep, it makes me sadface just thinking about it. DA2 was an experiment, a sadly failed experiment (in terms of reaction, at least). The worst part about it is it means they may not try it again. I'd rather they took DA2 and worked on making it its own beast; just give it a subtitle so no one can complain.

there's always story-based dlc, and being stuck in the hawke estate might be an advantage to that as well (being able to radically change kirkwall or introduce new mini-campaigns or whatnot)

even though ME2 scored well critically and with gamers at first, the DLC's were still used to fulfill the wishes of gamers who were disappointed with aspects of ME2 like the lack of vehicle exploration or the shadow broker plot or etc.

[Vicious]

The reason Hawke is 'the most important person in Thedas' is because his name is used as a rallying cry by the Mages. Either for the cruelty of the Templars, or that the Templars can be stood up to. Problem is, nobody really knows exactly what the hell he really did.

And that's why Cassandra was looking for him. People are saying 'hawke this hawke that' and nobody knows what the hell he did. She is looking for him because if everyone's using his name, obviously the Chantry completely losing it's power was probably his fault. Notice in the game she has her facts mixed up and believes all his companions came from Ferelden with him. [lol wat?]



So in DA3, Mages are going to be using Hawke's legend as a rallying cry, good or bad. Hawke himself is not important, but what he came to represent [through a series of unfortunate events and a comedy of errors] changed the world.


Which is why he is much more important to the world than the Warden of DA:O. If you played DA2, you notice some people commenting that they believe the whole blight was just fabricated, being that it started and ended so quickly. I'd imagine that is probably a line of thought that will get more and more common with time.

[haroldhardluck]

In Exile wrote...

It seems to me there is something rather important left unsaid in DA2: the reason why Cassandra is investigating Hawke.

Replaying the game, it seems to me that it's the case that Cassandra doesn't just think Hawke conspired to create the uprising (one way or another) but that he did it using the idol. Whereas it happens that the Champion of Kirkwall is just someone who by circumstance was caught up in the centre of this storm, and we see who Hawke is despite these unchanging events.

My sense based on all the cut scenes with Cassandra was she thought that Hawke deliberately came to Kirkwall with his companions to start the civil war. In one scene she was surprised to find that they all came to Kirkwall separately and met by chance there. I do not think she even knew the idol existed beforehand.

IOW she assumed that there was a conspiracy and wanted to find the details, only to find that it was all happenstance, including the finding of the idol. Which is why Varric is always saying in the cutscenes that events did not happened as she thinks.

Harold

[darrylzero]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That would have been kinda cool, and
could have also reflected the type of choices you made in-game, like if
you were a mage sympathizer, the "legend" could have said "he consorted
with blood mages and demons in order to overthrow the Chantry" or if you
were a templar sympathizer "he brutally treated mages and supported the
Templars tyrannical regime."

Or something like that.

Yes. This, and having a 'break out of the Gallows' Act II intro for either Bethany or Hawke (with the Arishok asking for Hawke either way, and the Vicount protecting Hawke/Bethany to ensure stability in Kirkwall) would have let you see the inside of the Gallows to really appreciate the plight of the mages.

The more I think about it, the more my problem with DA2 is that even though it narrowed the scope like I support in general, it didn't actually use the narrowed scope to create a tighter narrative. So you have Hawke who has a family and a background and a potential political thriller leading to a rebelion, but then the game still has that open narrative structure Bioware uses for most of its games...

Co-sign. 

I think they could have even done it without altering the amount of choice available to the player, which is not really all that high as it is.  What's more important, the ability to choose what order to do the random, mostly disconnected side-quests in, or to choose whether or not to try to break your sister out the Gallows?  There were only two things I really wanted to be able to do in this game:

1)  Attempt to build a criminal empire, preferably based on lyrium smuggling.

2)  Break into the circle to try to rescue Bethany (or at least assassinate some awful Templar that was threatening her or something).  Ideally, I could actually use stealth in the process (which, sadly, would not really be feasible with the current stealth mechanics), rather than just blundering through fight after fight.  If they really didn't think that breaking her out would work, plot-wise, she could refuse to leave.  That could be an interesting argument to have with her, and her reasons for refusing could provide an opportunity to develop more of a character for her. 

I think that the open structure would work best if each chapter began by dropping you directly into the action.  Act 1 could begin with a final assignment for either Athenril or Meeran going south, perhaps resulting in imprisonment.  Who doesn't love a good prison break?  That would provide a reason that both apostate and non-apostate Hawkes are invested in staying anonymous throughout Act 1, which would in turn enable them to create a greater sense of danger about using magic in public without creating two drastically different paths for mage and non-mage Hawkes (and maybe a chance to make non-altruistic rationales for all of the mandatory quests of Act 1 make sense).  Under those circumstances, making the money for the expedition seems urgent, since a successful expedition could provide the kind of wealth and status necessary to solve the problems that being a smuggler or mercenary created for you.

[Foolsfolly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That would have been kinda cool, and could have also reflected the type of choices you made in-game,

It could have been like Alpha Protocol's framed narrative, you mean?

I still chuckle at the idea that Mike Laidlaw claimed DA2 was the first reactive framed narrative, as if that game didn't exist.

Laidlaw says these things. Like how the game is different and innovative. It's not. Anything DA2 does another game did, except for the evolving personality...unless I'm forgetting an old game. That was new, but that's not what they bring up.

But yeah, Alpha Protocol did the framed narrative better. And there were video and pictures to back up the story, it was not Varric possibly lying or exagerating. The player knows exactly what they did happened.

Yes. This, and having a 'break out of the Gallows' Act II intro for
either Bethany or Hawke (with the Arishok asking for Hawke either way,
and the Vicount protecting Hawke/Bethany to ensure stability
in Kirkwall) would have let you see the inside of the Gallows to really appreciate the plight of
the mages.

The more I think about it, the more my problem with
DA2 is that even though it narrowed the scope like I support in general,
it didn't actually use the
narrowed scope to create a tighether narrative. So you have Hawke who
has a family and a background and a potential political thriller leading
to a rebelion, but then the game still has that open narrative
structure Bioware uses for most of its games.

Total agreement.

Since the acts have nothing but Hawke in common, Hawke should have had a stronger storyline. Or a storyline, as the case is.

BioWare tried to get away from their formula but they didn't know that they'd need a tigher more focused story when they take away the whole "You're the last of the/member of the elite X go to multiple places and then fight Y" storyline.

There were two times where the "framed narrative" was used creatively
(and somewhat effectively, only once effectively if I am being critical
instead of generous <which I am not today lol>). Once at the
beginning before you get to choose your appearance with the slightly
dramatized opening ogre fight thingie...and the best one was when Varric
told the story of what happened that night at Bartrand's estate.

Also true. Most break aways to Varric and Cassandra are to up-the-stakes and give the game a feeling of foreboding. Like when you go to the Deep Roads or about to fight the Qunari he says something ominous. That's like 80% of the flash forwards. It doesn't show or tell consquences so much because there's not that many consquences to your actions in this game. There's whole posters who will tell you a hundred times how useless Hawke is in this game, I'll leave it to them.

It *could* have worked, is the saddest thing. You can almost see it as
this great hypothetical idea of, errr, awesome.... but the way it all
came together and gelled, didn't get it there. So close you can see
it, you just can't get there.

Of course it could have worked. The ideas and concepts are far from bad it's just the execution of those ideas that failed.

If DA2's supposed to be a more personal narrow story about Hawke, then there should have been some kind of Hawke storyline in the game. There should have been personal goals Hawke needed, instead of just doing quests for other groups and people for no reason.

What really is wrong with the story is all the handwaving and lack of
explaination. I mean it is supposed to show how a normal guy/girl
becomes a hero

I saw that in one of the recent interviews. The point's supposed to be how heroes are borne. It fails the moment you do a basic attack and Hawke flies in the air and attacks like a Jedi on crack. Nothing about Hawke's abilities or attacks tells us that they're normal people who aren't heroes yet.

Hawke's a capable video game protagonist who can slay High Dragons, dive down Deeper into the Deep Roads than even the Legion or the Wardens, and can single-handedly defeat the Arishok. Nothing about Hawke's abilities or capabilities tell us Hawke's a normal person who becomes a hero. Hawke's already half-superhero before reaching level 5.

That's one of the disconnects in the game. Had Hawke's combat style changed throughout the game (and we get rid of the cartoony RTS gore-splosions) then we'd see an evolution of the character's ability.

We'd also need to have story reasoning as well, of course, Hawke's a refugee and yet Varric just assumes Hawke's capable enough to both raise a fortune and fight against swarms of darkspawn.

For no reason other than the plot told Varric to.

Or maybe things of some political value, if Hawke for example actually
tried to 'rise to power' and had to make political choices.

Yep. Hawke needs a story and motivation. If they didn't want to do an epic story then they needed to do a more personal and driven story about a refugee who rises to Champion. Instead Hawke becomes Champion without meaning to, becomes nobility off-screen, and can become Viscount for one Varric sentence. There's nothing interesting about Hawke's rise to power because it's not treated as a story, merely a side-effect for talking to NPCs with Quest icons over their heads.

The whole story is just a series of disconnected events that happen
because Hawke is very busy running around in the street day and night
and sticking his/her nose into other people problems.

Game needs a central plot to tie everything together. It should be either the Mage/Templar story or the game should focus more on Hawke's growth as a character with the act stories being backdrops. Either way, you'd have had a central plot that would tie things together and give the player a feeling of satisfaction upon beating the game.

That ending is not satisfying. It felt like....nothing. Just nothing.

The reason Hawke is 'the most important person in Thedas' is because his
name is used as a rallying cry by the Mages. Either for the cruelty of
the Templars, or that the Templars can be stood up to. Problem is,
nobody really knows exactly what the hell he really did.

And no one cares because they know that information before they even take their first step. And then you see no consquences about what Hawke did. We see nothing of the 10 years later period with Varric and Cassandra other than one dark room.

Related to this problem is the unchanging and stale setting of Kirkwall which should have adapted and changed due to the story and Hawke's influence.