742 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Anyway, it's no more bad for the turians than it would be bad for the French if they caught a terrorist from the UK.  Only hyper-nationalists would be upset.  The rest of the UK would be mildly embarassed at worst and happy a dangerous criminal is locked up at best.

Eh no. Not at all.

If the French military, unilaterally and without any authorization or knowledge of the British government,  sends out its army in British territory to destroy an organization which had not targetted them and is primarily a British concern, that would not be a "mild embarrassement". That would be a violation and breach of sovereignity, a violation of international law and a national humiliation. And almost declaration of war if the two countries happen to be in bad relations.

If the French thnk it is a national threat, they still have to get the approval of the British government to act. And to reference your example, French counter-terrorist agencies would still need the authorization of the British government to operate in British territory. It doesn't work like Gozilla.

You may dismiss that as "hypernationalist paranoia", but that's how international politics works.

EDIT: heck, the Eichmann case, which is nothing compared to what Anderson did, sparked more international controversy than "mild embarrasement".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 09:30 .

[GreenDragon37]

thurmanator692 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Kahoku's goons were sticking their noses where they weren't supposed to and Cerberus did what had to be done for humanity to be biotically competitive.

*facepalm*

Kidnapping children, torturing babies, killing alliance admirals and the men they lead, Cerberus does a  lot in the name of furthering human biotics, and we should all give them our unquestioning support and gratitude

This is the one thing I never understood. People love Cerberus even after all of the horrible things they've done. I guess it's because liking sick experimentation and racial domination has become the "cool thing" to do. <_<

I had no idea we were back in the 1930s!

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 19 avril 2011 - 09:28 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wait, that would imply that Zulu's judgement is clear the rest of the time.

Not really. His love for Cerberus clouds his judgement.

If my judgement was clouded, I'd be propagating a real crackpot theory about how Anderson and Kahlee Sanders have actually been advancing the Reaper goals, ever since Revelation, and that's the main reason Anderson digs under Cerberus all the time.

But... you do propogate a crackpot theory about how Anderson and Kahlee Sanders have actually been advancing the Reaper goals, ever since Revelation, and that's the main reason Anderson digs under Cerberus all the time.

[Seboist]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

Care to elaborate?

If flying around in a Cerberus ship using Cerberus personnel, intel and strategic planning doesn't count as working for them then I don't know what does. Oh and all alternate costumes for everyone besides Jacob and Miranda are Cerberus uniforms.

The fact that i'm not a member of cerberus, nor am i following the Illusive Man's order makes me not an agent

So it's just a big coincidence that your Shepard used Cerberus assets and followed through with what TIM tasked him to do? Oh Okay.

Its not membership so much as uneasy alliance, as i said earlier is needed to combat a larger threat. once the reapers are gone, Cerberus is screwed

Shepard is not some independant contractor in ME2 doing his own thing with the occasional Cerberus tip off helping him. Everything he has and does is due to Cerberus. That's hardly an "Alliance".

[AdmiralCheez]

Seboist wrote...

So it's just a big coincidence that your Shepard used Cerberus assets and followed through with what TIM tasked him to do? Oh Okay.

Hell, if TIMmy boy is dumb enough to hand over billions of credits and resources to the guy that made his life hell two years ago, it's his own damn fault. 

I think most of us can agree that the human race being wiped out is a bad thing, so if Cerberus really was the only option, it's foolish to not take it.  However, just because it was an alliance of necessity doesn't mean it was a permanent one.

You may argue that it's unwise to cut ties with Cerberus due to the imminent Reaper invasion, but clearly TIM doesn't think that way.

[GreenDragon37]

Seboist wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

Care to elaborate?

If flying around in a Cerberus ship using Cerberus personnel, intel and strategic planning doesn't count as working for them then I don't know what does. Oh and all alternate costumes for everyone besides Jacob and Miranda are Cerberus uniforms.

The fact that i'm not a member of cerberus, nor am i following the Illusive Man's order makes me not an agent

So it's just a big coincidence that your Shepard used Cerberus assets and followed through with what TIM tasked him to do? Oh Okay.

Its not membership so much as uneasy alliance, as i said earlier is needed to combat a larger threat. once the reapers are gone, Cerberus is screwed

Shepard is not some independant contractor in ME2 doing his own thing with the occasional Cerberus tip off helping him. Everything he has and does is due to Cerberus. That's hardly an "Alliance".

It is an uneasy Alliance. My Shephard hates Cerberus, but seeing as that no other options are open, they're the only one left to run to. Honestly, I would have just prefered that BioWare didn't railroad us into joining Cerberus.

[Zulu_DFA]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wait, that would imply that Zulu's judgement is clear the rest of the time.

Not really. His love for Cerberus clouds his judgement.

If my judgement was clouded, I'd be propagating a real crackpot theory about how Anderson and Kahlee Sanders have actually been advancing the Reaper goals, ever since Revelation, and that's the main reason Anderson digs under Cerberus all the time.

I can already tell that's what's coming, Zulu... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

That's only because your judgement is clouded. It is not coming.

[VendettaI154]

Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah.

There are Anderson haters?

[GreenDragon37]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wait, that would imply that Zulu's judgement is clear the rest of the time.

Not really. His love for Cerberus clouds his judgement.

If my judgement was clouded, I'd be propagating a real crackpot theory about how Anderson and Kahlee Sanders have actually been advancing the Reaper goals, ever since Revelation, and that's the main reason Anderson digs under Cerberus all the time.

I can already tell that's what's coming, Zulu... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

That's only because your judgement is clouded. It is not coming.

Oh, it is. I can tell you have it forming in your head right now. I'm magic like that. 

[The BS Police]

VendettaI154 wrote...

Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah.

There are Anderson haters?

Yeah, they are all not surprisingly Cerberus supporters.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wait, that would imply that Zulu's judgement is clear the rest of the time.

Not really. His love for Cerberus clouds his judgement.

If my judgement was clouded, I'd be propagating a real crackpot theory about how Anderson and Kahlee Sanders have actually been advancing the Reaper goals, ever since Revelation, and that's the main reason Anderson digs under Cerberus all the time.

I can already tell that's what's coming, Zulu... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

That's only because your judgement is clouded. It is not coming.

In fact, it already came.

See that? On the screen? That's it.

Zing!

[KnightofPhoenix]

GreenDragon37 wrote...
I had no idea we were back in the 1930s!

You don't think "sick experimentation" happens every day? Ha.

Are people forgetting that the Turians secretly stole and reverse engineered Reaper / Sovereign technology? Why do you think, because it's cool? No, to increase their relative power. 

You may dismiss that competition as petty, but the nations in our own history who did, ended up being devoured and humiliated. And their moral high horse proved rather useless. 

[Sylvianus]

There is no situation like Cerberus today in reality. Cerberus has completely infiltrated the Alliance, everywhere, no country has ever experienced this. They have ears everywhere, and all branches are infiltrated, unable to act.

The only comparison is russia. Who has seen some of its intelligence services to turn against him with Gorbachev. America and its intelligence services have provided important information to combat them, yes the old enemy.

[GreenDragon37]

VendettaI154 wrote...

Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah.

There are Anderson haters?

Anderson just delivered a swift kick to Cerberus's balls. What did you expect the reaction would be?

[Dean_the_Young]

GreenDragon37 wrote...


This is the one thing I never understood. People love Cerberus even after all of the horrible things they've done. I guess it's because liking sick experimentation and racial domination has become the "cool thing" to do. <_<

I had no idea we were back in the 1930s!

Well, compared to the genocide Shepard deals out...

[jbblue05]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Well, it's exposed, so it's a little too late, isn't it?  Better get rid of it before it starts to smell.

The Alliance has enough cclean laundry that it can wait to clean their dirty laundry

Cerberus wants dominance.  The Alliance wants expansion and stability.  There is a difference between setting up new colonies and trying to make yourself King of the Galaxy.

I believe your being black and white.
The Alliance wanted more power in ME1 that was made perfectly clear to you from Anderson.
You seem to forget that the Alliance siezed domination of the Council if you llet the Council die. 

And this track-covering/PR is precisely why going to the turians wasn't the dumbest idea ever.  Go through the Alliance, and Cerberus knows you're coming.  Go through the turians, and you get to make nice with the guys with the dreadnoughts.

This is exactly why you cover your tracks you don't want the guys with dreadnoughts deeming you untrustworthy and gaining more power

That's because only a very few people control the wealth.  And you can lay as low as you want--it's over once you get caught.

Thos few people are the voices that lead the Alliance

And the corrupt people within the Alliance will be forced from power.  This is a good thing.

Furthermore, please stop acting like the whole Alliance is in bed with Cerberus.  That's like saying, "Congressman Whatever gave money to terrorists under the table, so America supports terrorists!"  No.  Congressman Whatever supports terrorists and America won't be re-electing his ass next term.

No they won't those few people chart the Alliance's path, the Alliance will not let their leaders be at the mercy of the Turians.

Cerberus aren't terrorists. Shepard is.  Anderson is hurting our chaces against the Reapers while Cerberus has been helping us

Because Terra Firma will totally gain public favor once it's out that they've been funding terrorists. </sarcasm>

You forget that the Turiams are withholding evidence form the Alliance.  They are arresting Alliance officials in droves without any proof just suspicion

This is bad solely for Cerberus and the people who support it.  Cerberus is not the same as the Alliance and sure as hell isn't humanity, despite what TIM might have told you.  Sorry for repeating myself here.

Anyway, it's no more bad for the turians than it would be bad for the French if they caught a terrorist from the UK.  Only hyper-nationalists would be upset.  The rest of the UK would be mildly embarassed at worst and happy a dangerous criminal is locked up at best.

And no, I don't see in black and white.  I just see Cerberus as ultimately dangerous and a black mark on the Alliance.  It's definitely not going to be sunshine and sugarplums now that they've been exposed--obviously they're going to be a helluva thorn in Shepard's side later--but their fate is pretty much sealed.  Cerberus is screwed.

So you're saying "I don't care what happens,in the aftermath as long as Cerberus is attacked I'm happy"

[AdmiralCheez]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eh no. Not at all.

If the French military, unilaterally and without any authorization or knowledge of the British government,  sends out its army in British territory to destroy an organization which had not targetted them and is primarily a British concern, that would not be a "mild embarrassement". That would be a violation and breach of sovereignity, a violation of international law and a national humiliation. And almost declaration of war if the two countries happen to be in bad relations.

If the French thnk it is a national threat, they still have to get the approval of the British government to act. And to reference your example, French counter-terrorist agencies would still need the authorization of the British government to operate in British territory. It doens't work like Gozilla.

You may dismiss that as "hypernationalist paranoia", but that's how international politics works.

EDIT: heck, the Eichmann case, which is nothing compared to what Anderson did, sparked more international controversy than "mild embarrasement".

Sorry, never read the books, so I wasn't clear on the details.  How many people knew about the whole turian/Cerberus shenanigans again?  Was it all over the news or did it stay fairly hush-hush?

Anyway, was the Cerberus facility technically in Alliance space?  If it was, oh snap, bad move.

Also, since Cerberus has infiltrated the Alliance, was going through normal channels ever an option?

I'd ask why Anderson didn't just hire out mercs and make it look like a pirate attack, but then I remembered he's Heroic Stupid.

[Seboist]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Seboist wrote...

So it's just a big coincidence that your Shepard used Cerberus assets and followed through with what TIM tasked him to do? Oh Okay.

Hell, if TIMmy boy is dumb enough to hand over billions of credits and resources to the guy that made his life hell two years ago, it's his own damn fault. 

I think most of us can agree that the human race being wiped out is a bad thing, so if Cerberus really was the only option, it's foolish to not take it.  However, just because it was an alliance of necessity doesn't mean it was a permanent one.

You may argue that it's unwise to cut ties with Cerberus due to the imminent Reaper invasion, but clearly TIM doesn't think that way.

Nah, it's just the writers making sure we have as much "choice" as in a JRPG. A guy doesn't go from shedding tears if Shepard dies regardless of what happens to CB to hunting him out of nowhere.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sylvianus wrote...

There is no situation like Cerberus today in reality. Cerberus has completely infiltrated the Alliance, everywhere, no country has ever experienced this. They have ears everywhere, and all branches are infiltrated, unable to act.

They are perfectly able to act to further human itnerests. That's is the purpose of the Alliance.
And your theory that cerberus controls and completely paralyzes the alliance is as unsubstantiated as the Alliance and Cerberus being one and the same, imo.

I'd say that Cerberus has sympathizers in the higher echelons of the Alliance, and are connected via TIM's front corporations and business connections. And as a result, many in the Alliance see Cerberus as convenient and would turn a blind eye to their actions.

The Alliance is not some kind of poor victim that Anderson just saved.

[GreenDragon37]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...
I had no idea we were back in the 1930s!

You don't think "sick experimentation" happens every day? Ha.

Are people forgetting that the Turians secretly stole and reverse engineered Reaper / Sovereign technology? Why do you think, because it's cool? No, to increase their relative power. 

You may dismiss that competition as petty, but the nations in our own history who did, ended up being devoured and humiliated. And their moral high horse proved rather useless. 

Of course sick experimentation happens. But I'm not a monster who apparently accepts it like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread (you apparently do).

I'm all for competition and staying ahead of the other races, but won't sell my soul and betray my values. Also, the National Socialists were devoured and humiliated for what they did. Experiments for the "betterment of Humanity". Hiding behind that old card.

[Eber]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wait, that would imply that Zulu's judgement is clear the rest of the time.

Not really. His love for Cerberus clouds his judgement.

If my judgement was clouded, I'd be propagating a real crackpot theory about how Anderson and Kahlee Sanders have actually been advancing the Reaper goals, ever since Revelation, and that's the main reason Anderson digs under Cerberus all the time.

But... you do propogate a crackpot theory about how Anderson and Kahlee Sanders have actually been advancing the Reaper goals, ever since Revelation, and that's the main reason Anderson digs under Cerberus all the time.

We don't need advanced theories to explain Anderson's behavior. Anderson being a temperamental and impulsive hothead is probably it. Reading the first book it seems he was always set up for this role. Quotes below.

Anderson and his lawyer
The man was a good attorny; his prices were reasonable and he'd been fair and unbiased thoughout the divorce. In fact he'd been nothing but the model of effeciency and professionalism. And if he was standing in the apparment right now, Anderson would have punched him in the face.

Anderson and some random turians
He turned and headed towards the door. Two turians glared at him as he passed their table, and one of them muttered somthing under his breath. Anderson didn't need to understand the words to know he was being insulted. He hesitated. His fists involuntarily clenching as he felt his temper rise.

Anderson and a young tech specialist
Kahlee nodded in appreciation, and the man gave her a wink and a leering smile that made Anderson's fist involuntarily clench. He had to be careful not to overreact. Fortunatly nobody had noticed; they were all focused on the young man and his work. [...] Anderson had to restrain himelf from punching the slimeball right in the face.

Anderson and Saren
"You son of a ***!" Anderson shouted, leaping across the table to grab him by the throat. But the turian was too quick for him. He jumped back before Anderson's grasp and, then leaped in and seized Anderson's outstretched arms by the wrist, yanking him off balance. [...] Anderson struggled for a few seconds, but he couldn't break free.

"I get it," Anderson said, trying to keep his voice calm. [...] fighting with Saren in this bar didn't accomplish anything [...] he had to be smart instead of impulsive.

--------

Too bad that last part wasn't really true. He didn't get it.

Modifié par Eber, 19 avril 2011 - 09:47 .