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[Zulu_DFA]

Eber wrote...

We don't need advanced theories to explain Anderson's behavior. Anderson being a temperamental and impulsive hothead is probably it. Reading the first book it seems he was always set up for this role. Quotes below.

Anderson and his lawyer
The man was a good attorny; his prices were reasonable and he'd been fair and unbiased thoughout the divorce. In fact he'd been nothing but the model of effeciency and professionalism. And if he was standing in the apparment right now, Anderson would have punched him in the face.

Anderson and some random turians
He turned and headed towards the door. Two turians glared at him as he passed their table, and one of them muttered somthing under his breath. Anderson didn't need to understand the words to know he was being insulted. He hesitated. His fists involuntarily clenching as he felt his temper rise.

Anderson and a young tech specialist
Kahlee nodded in appreciation, and the man gave her a wink and a leering smile that made Anderson's fist involuntarily clench. He had to be careful not to overreact. Fortunatly nobody had noticed; they were all focused on the young man and his work. [...] Anderson had to restrain himelf from punching the slimeball right in the face.

Anderson and Saren
"You son of a ***!" Anderson shouted, leaping across the table to grab him by the throat. But the turian was too quick for him. He jumped back before Anderson's grasp and, then leaped in and seized Anderson's outstretched arms by the wrist, yanking him off balance. [...] Anderson struggled for a few seconds, but he couldn't break free.

"I get it," Anderson said, trying to keep his voice calm. [...] fighting with Saren in this bar didn't accomplish anything [...] he had to be smart instead of impulsive.

--------

Too bad that last part wasn't really true. He didn't get it.

Quoted for emphasis.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[AdmiralCheez]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I doubt such an incident did not become public knowledge. And in any case, it would embolden the Turian hawks and make them think humanity is weak. And it would enrage Alliance hawks. The political context, even in a paragon council situation, is too fragile for us to afford such things at this moment.

I doubt the Turians didn't publically boast about their little victory. I know I would.

But nonetheless it's never outright mentioned that this was made public, right?  So we're gonna have to hold out for ME3 to know for sure.

I am not sure of the facility itself, but the Turians attacked several bases and front companies, and I assume some if not many of them were in Alliance space. And they attacked some in the Citadel itself. Reminder, the Alliance is part of the council here.

I had no idea the attack was that large-scale.  Thanks for clarifying that much for me.

If Cerbers wasn't in Alliance space, then in the Terminus system. So now the Turians send military forces there, but when it comes to human colonies being threatened, like by their own traitours specter in the traverse, they think it's dagnerous? ha.

Technically, that was the Council refusing to help.  Anderson went directly to the turian ambassador (right?), who is apparently much bolder.

And, knowing the writers, this could all be swept under a rug later and only briefly mentioned.

May or may not. I'd argue that in either case, now was not the time for it, if the Alliance can't (or mosty likely wouldn't) deal with it. He should have just swallowed his pride and not act the hero in front of his girl.

Well, he did stop Greyson (correct?), so it's better he did than didn't.  His plan and motivation were pretty high on the derp scale, though.

If he had to deal with it, at least brign  in some Alliance involkvement. But if he doesn't know a single high ranking Alliance officer who isn't sympathetic to Cerberus, then maybe he shoudl reconsider and just retire.

Maybe he was worried about moles?  Even if he knew that Hackett, for example, wasn't with Cerberus, does that mean Hackett's secretary was clean?  With an attack of that scale, I can understand his paranoia of tipping them off.  Whether the attack was necessary or not...  Eh.  Not enough data.  Need ME3.  Hindsight, my darling, where are you?

[ddv.rsa]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

On a hostile being that tried to kill me.

The Rachni are hostile beings that tried to destroy galactic civilization. 

[GreenDragon37]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...
Than their souls will rot I hope. If there is corruption, I'll stop it. And if people are willing to go to such lengths to win, than what are we fighting for? Certainly not Humanity.

And what is "humanity" other than a sentient species of highly evolved primate mammals and political animals?

Survival, dominance and power. When it comes to the Reapers (and I'd argue, ultimately everything else) war with them revolves around only this. Everything else is moral white wash in an attempt to demonize the "evil" other and sanctify "our" cause.

Well, your morals are not the same as my morals. Unlike Cerberus I'm not fighting the Reapers because of power, glory, and domination of all races in the future. I'm doing it to make the galaxy safe for everyone to live in. If that's bad to you, than it's bad to you. But not for me. Cerberus stands in the way as an obstacle to Shephard (ME3) and the entire galaxy. If they aren't taken out, everyone falls.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Actually, aggressively putting out fires can result in much larger fires in the future. This evident in the management of forests and is also applicable to Anderson's situation. In attacking Cerberus he emboldened humanity's xenophobes and hawks at a time when cooperation with the other races may be key to our survival. He weakened the Alliance and hurt its relations with the turians, nearly causing a war in the process.

He utterly failed in his objective as well. Cerberus survived and will likely come out of this stronger and smarter in the end.

Anderson put out a relatively small and harmless fire and has set the kindling for a much larger one in the future.

Ever hear of a controlled burn? That's what was needed with Cerberus. Once Anderson had that data he shouldn't have run off to use it so soon. Forget about Paul Grayson, he doesn't matter. Instead Anderson should have sat on the data for a period of weeks, months, or even years. He could have examined the intel himself and used it to find trustworthy people in the Alliance. Over time the intel could have been used to much greater effect by acting on it without tipping Cerberus off. It would have taken longer, but the result would have been better (for the Alliance anyway).

Attacking Cerberus in the way that Anderson did may have done a lot more harm than good.

Very good points, and this is what I would have preferred, but we'll have to wait and see.

The books make me wonder what the hell is up with the Cult of Drew, though...

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 19 avril 2011 - 10:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
But nonetheless it's never outright mentioned that this was made public, right?  So we're gonna have to hold out for ME3 to know for sure.

I do not recall, but I doubt such a large scale attack would go unnoticed.

Technically, that was the Council refusing to help.  Anderson went directly to the turian ambassador (right?), who is apparently much bolder.

The Turian councillor represents the Hierarchy. If he said no, then the Turian Hierharchy said no, they don't care about human colonies in the traverse, even if it's one of their own specters who's gone rogue.

But if it's Cerberus, especially in a political context where the alliance is either in the council or is leading it (both controversial), well the political message that would entail would certainly be much mroe valuable than the lives of "a few human colonies" as the Turian councilor would say. 

Well, he did stop Greyson (correct?), so it's better he did than didn't.  His plan and motivation were pretty high on the derp scale, though.

TIM would have probably handled it.

Maybe he was worried about moles?  Even if he knew that Hackett, for example, wasn't with Cerberus, does that mean Hackett's secretary was clean?  With an attack of that scale, I can understand his paranoia of tipping them off.  Whether the attack was necessary or not...  Eh.  Not enough data.  Need ME3.  Hindsight, my darling, where are you?

If his priority was that Cerberus facility only, then a small tip off would not have been disastrous.

I agree though, if Anderson is so single mindedely focusing on Cerberus and if weakening them is the ultimate objective everything else be damned, then asking the Turians for help is in fact smart and caught them by surprise.

What we are arguing however is the prudence of such an act in the big picture. I assume even the most ardent haters of cerberus can admit that there are larger things at stake in the immediate future.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 10:19 .

[GreenDragon37]

ddv.rsa wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

On a hostile being that tried to kill me.

The Rachni are hostile beings that tried to destroy galactic civilization. 

Because of Reaper Indoctrination. Heck, going by your thinking, we should get rid of Humans if you seize control of the Citadel and murdered the Council. You overturned the galactic civilization and just made other races inferior. Humanity just became a threat to all.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 19 avril 2011 - 10:18 .

[AdmiralCheez]

mrsph wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

The books make me wonder what the hell is up with the Cult of Drew, though...

Believe it or not. People used to bash the hell out of Drew before they all jumped on the "MAC SUCKS!" bandwagon.

Ah, so they both suck.  At least sometimes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

GreenDragon37 wrote...
Well, your morals are not the same as my morals. Unlike Cerberus I'm not fighting the Reapers because of power, glory, and domination of all races in the future. I'm doing it to make the galaxy safe for everyone to live in. If that's bad to you, than it's bad to you. But not for me. Cerberus stands in the way as an obstacle to Shephard (ME3) and the entire galaxy. If they aren't taken out, everyone falls.

Good for you.
It's not a question of it being bad. But rather unfeasible and naive, but that's another topic that I do not wish to get into. Too touchy. 

[GreenDragon37]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...
Well, your morals are not the same as my morals. Unlike Cerberus I'm not fighting the Reapers because of power, glory, and domination of all races in the future. I'm doing it to make the galaxy safe for everyone to live in. If that's bad to you, than it's bad to you. But not for me. Cerberus stands in the way as an obstacle to Shephard (ME3) and the entire galaxy. If they aren't taken out, everyone falls.

Good for you.
It's not a question of it being bad. But rather unfeasible and naive, but that's another topic that I do not wish to get into. Too touchy. 

What you call unfeasible and Naieve, I call "cleaning house". But that's a topic for another day.

[ddv.rsa]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

The Rachni are hostile beings that tried to destroy galactic civilization. 

Because of Reaper Indoctrination. Heck, going by your thinking, we should get rid of Humans if you seize control of the Citadel and murdered the Council. You overturned the galactic civilization and just made other races inferior. Humanity just became a threat to all.

Humanity never declared open season on every other race. The Rachni went on a killing spree that lasted for years and years. Not comparable. And when you decide the fate of the Rachni Queen you've got no real information about Reapers yet. When you let her go, you're gambling with millions of lives.  

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 19 avril 2011 - 10:27 .

[AdmiralCheez]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not recall, but I doubt such a large scale attack would go unnoticed.

Three words:

Ah yes, "Reapers."

The Turian councillor represents the Hierarchy. If he said no, then the Turian Hierharchy said no, they don't care about human colonies in the traverse, even if it's one of their own specters who's gone rogue.

If there's a turian councilor, why do they need an ambassador?  I always figured the Council was more like the UN, where your representative isn't the same as your political leaders at home.

But if it's Cerberus, especially in a political context where the alliance is either in the council or is leading it (both controversial), well the political message that would entail would certainly be much mroe valuable than the lives of "a few human colonies" as the Turian councilor would say.

Well yeah, I'd say active human terrorists are a bigger threat than "random pirate attacks."  I'm not ruling out self-interest here.

TIM would have probably handled it.

Maybe, maybe not.  Regardless, it was taken care of, and not by TIM.

If his priority was that Cerberus facility only, then a small tip off would not have been disastrous.

It may have been enough that the facility would be empty and shut down by the time they got there.

I agree though, if yAnderson is so single mindedely focusing on Cerberus and if weakening them is the ultimate objective everythign else be damned, then askign the Turians for help is in fact smart and caught them by surprise.

What we are arguing however is the prudence of such an act in the big picture. I assume even the most ardent haters of cerberus can admit that there are larger things at stake in the immediate future.

Yeah, I don't know what the hell Anderson was thinking, either.  But really, what are we supposed to do, sit on our hands and wait for the Reapers to show up?

[AdmiralCheez]

mrsph wrote...

At books and comics anyway. But hey, they write videogames.

Apparently, literary talent does not translate well from medium to medium.

Oh well.  Not their fault.

[didymos1120]

mrsph wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

The books make me wonder what the hell is up with the Cult of Drew, though...

Believe it or not. People used to bash the hell out of Drew before they all jumped on the "MAC SUCKS!" bandwagon.

I always find it fun to point out this post by Patrick Weeks on the old forums:

Travis: Drew, I believe, wrote Liara in ME1. It was Drew, with both Mac and me doing some touching up after Drew left for warmer climates, in ME2.

IOW, are you among those who hated and raged over Liara in ME2 pre-Lair? That was mostly Drew's doing. 

[AdmiralCheez]

didymos1120 wrote...

IOW, are you among those who hated and raged over Liara in ME2 pre-Lair? That was mostly Drew's doing.

I disliked Liara strongly in ME1 and was confused as hell by her personality change in ME2.

Dammit, Drew.

[jbblue05]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

That's no excuse.

It is the Alliance was getting along just fine with the races or good enough and now Anderson made a mess of it

More political pull/territory =/= TOTAL DOMINATION.  Durr.  Those are two different shades of gray. Additionally, like any political body, the Alliance can change policies later.  In fact, their current policies should probably stop anyway, since it's what pissed off the batarians in the first place.

Durr.  Alliance=good guys  Cerberus=bad guys   you seem black and white to me
So the Alliance should bend over and take it in the rear from the other races.

Too late for that now, eh?  Should have covered your tracks faster.

TIM should've killed Grayson a long time ago

Not when they're exposed as terrorist supporters.

I'm sure the Alliance will do anything to get their leaders out of Turian custody

Mercy of the tur...?  Uh, dude, I'm pretty sure the turians attacked a Cerberus facility.  They didn't exactly park a cruiser in a CEO's front lawn... did they?

Anyway, your argument is this: We can't take the corrupt people out of power because they're in power.  Yes we can, and we can easily fill the power vacuum with far more moderate candidates.  You know, ones that aren't funding terrorists.  And I don't think you have to worry about the CEOs--they can cut ties with Cerberus and use the extra money to hire a good lawyer.

Who says these people are corrupt. Their rivals or enemies for all we know the Turians are corrupt and are looking for an excuse to get access to classified Alliance data

The only reason Cerberus seems corrupt is because Bioware has put them front and center.  In CDN their is a report about Turian rebels, rebelling against the hiearchy killing thousands of fellow Turians.

Their were multiple Turian teams that attacked Cerberus simultaneously

Yeah because Cerberus is totally gonna be integral to the Reapers' defeat... </sarcasm>

Entire civilizations > TIM and Co.

Don't count all your chips yet until you played ME3.

Okay, I didn't read the book, so could you please type up the specific passage and/or link it for me?

Multiple Chapters like 10 and 12 the Turian ambassador Orinia wanted to keep this evidece in-house.
Orinia meets with Alliance reps but they are still pissed off especially Udina.

No.  I'm saying that this isn't going to screw us all over as much as you think.

Its not going to screw us over at all the Reapers invasion will make sure of that

[KnightofPhoenix]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Three words:

Ah yes, "Reapers."

Different scenario. The Geth attack with a flagship called Sovereign remains noticed. They do not believe Sovereign to be a reaper. They know fully well what Cerberus is.

If there's a turian councilor, why do they need an ambassador?  I always figured the Council was more like the UN, where your representative isn't the same as your political leaders at home.

The UN representative is just that. A representative and he / she follows directive from the polity he / she is representating.

Anderson contacted a Turian military officer IIRC. Since the turians are very big of discipline, observance of rank and hierarchy (their entire polity is called the hierarchy!) then that officer got the clearance from the Turian government.

Well yeah, I'd say active human terrorists are a bigger threat than "random pirate attacks."  I'm not ruling out self-interest here.

Except the Skyllian blitz for example was much more than random pirate attacks. It was a massive Batarian financed terror pirate campaign, to scare humans off their "zone of interests". Furthermore, the exampe I was referring to was Saren's geth. Time and time again, the council refused to act to protect them.

And I contest the notion that Cerberus is a terrorist organization. It does not even target the Turians, Asari and Salarians.

Maybe, maybe not.  Regardless, it was taken care of, and not by TIM.

Yea, at what cost?

Yeah, I don't know what the hell Anderson was thinking, either.  But really, what are we supposed to do, sit on our hands and wait for the Reapers to show up?

I don't know, maybe try to communicate and coordinate with the only organization that knows and did something about the Reapers rather than kill them?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 10:45 .

[88mphSlayer]

mrsph wrote...

I'm starting to see an abusive relationship fostering here with Cerberus.

"If I do good they'll love me again!"

and now I feel bad.

eh, i'm not loyal to any organization in the mass effect universe, doing so is naive

Cerberus is just the best tool for Shepard for defeating the reapers, like it or not

why some people want to burn all of their tools so they can go back to getting trapped in a dock and being ordered to ignore the reaper threat is beyond me

i mean do people REALLY think the Alliance and the Council is going to be all "oh shepard we wuv you! please come back! we'll do anything for you! <3<3<3 :crying:"

yeah... by the time they realize you're right and not a genocidal rogue spectre they'll be so tied up or drained of manpower & resources that they won't be a factor in winning the war anyways

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 19 avril 2011 - 10:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

88mphSlayer wrote...
yeah... by the time they realize you're right and not a genocidal rogue spectre they'll be so tied up or drained of manpower & resources that they won't be a factor in winning the war anyways

Screw them all, go for Wrex.

[Dave666]

88mphSlayer wrote...

mrsph wrote...

I'm starting to see an abusive relationship fostering here with Cerberus.

"If I do good they'll love me again!"

and now I feel bad.

eh, i'm not loyal to any organization in the mass effect universe, doing so is naive

Cerberus is just the best tool for Shepard for defeating the reapers, like it or not

why some people want to burn all of their tools so they can go back to getting trapped in a dock and being ordered to ignore the reaper threat is beyond me

i mean do people REALLY think the Alliance and the Council is going to be all "oh shepard we wuv you! please come back! we'll do anything for you! <3<3<3 :crying:"

yeah... by the time they realize you're right and not a genocidal rogue spectre they'll be so tied up or drained of manpower & resources that they won't be a factor in winning the war anyways

I have to ask.

How much 'manpower and resources' do you believe that a small organisation like Cerberus can provide?

Lets take the scenario that the Reapers have arrived and the Council now fully supports you, whatever you need they'll provide.  Even if the Council could only access 10% of its usual manpower and resources its still several orders of magnitude beyond what Cerberus could provide at 100%.

Modifié par Dave666, 19 avril 2011 - 10:52 .

[didymos1120]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It does not even target the Turians, Asari and Salarians.

Sometimes it does:

2168 - Assassination of 22 salarian crime syndicate members on Trident leads to takeover of narcotics trade. Reprisals bloody but tolerable.

2169 - TRAPDOOR experiments on asari captives with omega-enkaphalin to measure disruption of biotic powers. Estimate 2.5 mg active ingredient for each 25 kg of body weight; under 7.5 mg dose optimal to avoid detection by taste or smell; 3-5 Citadel standard days onset period; powers return in 2-5 Cit-stan days after last dose taken; permanent damage possible.

2181 - Matriarch Tilia Eraza targeted with omega-enkaphalin. Claims of biotic superiority to non-biotics deflated once her powers fail. Voice in citizen legislature considerably diminished.

2182 - MSV Anixara sabotaged. Catalyst added to metastable metallic hydrogen fuel by timer injection. Ship breaks apart during FTL, all hands aboard lost, turian Hierarchy hawk Raherix Ursivus killed in the process. Explosion attributed to faulty engineering.

and:

Skye Turnick, the sole surviving member of the Cerberus cell responsible for the now-infamous “torture den” of captive aliens on the Terminus Systems planet Trident, escaped from custody at 9:37 local time this morning.

Modifié par didymos1120, 19 avril 2011 - 10:53 .

[88mphSlayer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...
yeah... by the time they realize you're right and not a genocidal rogue spectre they'll be so tied up or drained of manpower & resources that they won't be a factor in winning the war anyways

Screw them all, go for Wrex.

sounds good to me