742 réponses à ce sujet

[armass]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

There is no situation like Cerberus today in reality. Cerberus has completely infiltrated the Alliance, everywhere, no country has ever experienced this. They have ears everywhere, and all branches are infiltrated, unable to act.

They are perfectly able to act to further human itnerests. That's is the purpose of the Alliance.
And your theory that cerberus controls and completely paralyzes the alliance is as unsubstantiated as the Alliance and Cerberus being one and the same, imo.

I'd say that Cerberus has sympathizers in the higher echelons of the Alliance, and are connected via TIM's front corporations and business connections. And as a result, many in the Alliance see Cerberus as convenient and would turn a blind eye to their actions.

The Alliance is not some kind of poor victim that Anderson just saved.

Yeah but it's all controlled by one guy, basically, whos a powerhungry xenophobe. In his organization he answers to no one. If this guys organization gains upper hand on humanity, can you say dictator?

Modifié par armass, 19 avril 2011 - 10:53 .

[AdmiralCheez]

jbblue05 wrote...

It is the Alliance was getting along just fine with the races or good enough and now Anderson made a mess of it

Stuff like this never stays hidden for long anyway.  Not in the age of the extranet and the Shadow Broker.

Durr.  Alliance=good guys  Cerberus=bad guys   you seem black and white to me
So the Alliance should bend over and take it in the rear from the other races.

Did I say the Alliance were "good guys?"  Hell no!  They're a political entity, man!  Stop putting words in my mouth that don't belong there.  Sheesh.

And no, I don't expect the Alliance to spead its buttcheeks for the aliens; I simply think that such aggressive policies are uncalled for.  I am an advocate of slow, stable, and steady growth, the kind that doesn't start wars over whose planet it is.

TIM should've killed Grayson a long time ago

But he didn't, did he?  Good job, TIMmy.  Good job.

Who says these people are corrupt. Their rivals or enemies for all we know the Turians are corrupt and are looking for an excuse to get access to classified Alliance data

Only Cerberus facilities were attacked, and only active members of Cerberus were arrested (I think).

The only reason Cerberus seems corrupt is because Bioware has put them front and center.  In CDN their is a report about Turian rebels, rebelling against the hiearchy killing thousands of fellow Turians

DID YOU PLAY ME1?!

Ahem.  Anyway, saying the Taetrus conflict makes all turians corrupt bastards is like saying the French Revolution makes all humans corrupt bastards.  While the war was indeed brutal (and I kind of want to meet that Partinax guy--what a BAMF), that does not mean that either side was inherently evil.

Hell, I don't think Cerberus is even evil.  They're far too extreme in their methods and their ultimate goal makes them dangerous, but it's not like TIM is Satan or anything.

Their were multiple Turian teams that attacked Cerberus simultaneously

Them's my boys!

Don't count all your chips yet until you played ME3.

Well, it's pretty clear Cerberus isn't even in the chip pile anymore and that you have to seek help of the other races, soooooo....  Yeah.  Safer to bet on the Hierarchy.

Multiple Chapters like 10 and 12 the Turian ambassador Orinia wanted to keep this evidece in-house.
Orinia meets with Alliance reps but they are still pissed off especially Udina.

I don't have the book, man.  Help me out here.

Its not going to screw us over at all the Reapers invasion will make sure of that

Like Cerberus would actually be helpful in the un-screwing..

Yep.  Those mooks with katanas and rocketboots are totally here to help you.  Don't mind them as they chop your head off.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 19 avril 2011 - 10:53 .

[88mphSlayer]

Dave666 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

mrsph wrote...

I'm starting to see an abusive relationship fostering here with Cerberus.

"If I do good they'll love me again!"

and now I feel bad.

eh, i'm not loyal to any organization in the mass effect universe, doing so is naive

Cerberus is just the best tool for Shepard for defeating the reapers, like it or not

why some people want to burn all of their tools so they can go back to getting trapped in a dock and being ordered to ignore the reaper threat is beyond me

i mean do people REALLY think the Alliance and the Council is going to be all "oh shepard we wuv you! please come back! we'll do anything for you! <3<3<3 :crying:"

yeah... by the time they realize you're right and not a genocidal rogue spectre they'll be so tied up or drained of manpower & resources that they won't be a factor in winning the war anyways

I have to ask.

How much 'manpower and resources' do you believe that a small organisation like Cerberus can provide?

Lets take the scenario that the Reapers have arrived and the Council now fully supports you, whatever you need they'll provide.  Even if the Council could only access 10% of its usual manpower and resources its still several orders of magnitude beyond what Cerberus could provide at 100%.

that's like asking gps to bomb a building... now if you use gps to guide a bomb to a building - that'll destroy a building

[Dave666]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

mrsph wrote...

I'm starting to see an abusive relationship fostering here with Cerberus.

"If I do good they'll love me again!"

and now I feel bad.

eh, i'm not loyal to any organization in the mass effect universe, doing so is naive

Cerberus is just the best tool for Shepard for defeating the reapers, like it or not

why some people want to burn all of their tools so they can go back to getting trapped in a dock and being ordered to ignore the reaper threat is beyond me

i mean do people REALLY think the Alliance and the Council is going to be all "oh shepard we wuv you! please come back! we'll do anything for you! <3<3<3 :crying:"

yeah... by the time they realize you're right and not a genocidal rogue spectre they'll be so tied up or drained of manpower & resources that they won't be a factor in winning the war anyways

I have to ask.

How much 'manpower and resources' do you believe that a small organisation like Cerberus can provide?

Lets take the scenario that the Reapers have arrived and the Council now fully supports you, whatever you need they'll provide.  Even if the Council could only access 10% of its usual manpower and resources its still several orders of magnitude beyond what Cerberus could provide at 100%.

that's like asking gps to bomb a building... now if you use gps to guide a bomb to a building - that'll destroy a building

Eh? GPS=The Council? What?

[Seboist]

armass wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

There is no situation like Cerberus today in reality. Cerberus has completely infiltrated the Alliance, everywhere, no country has ever experienced this. They have ears everywhere, and all branches are infiltrated, unable to act.

They are perfectly able to act to further human itnerests. That's is the purpose of the Alliance.
And your theory that cerberus controls and completely paralyzes the alliance is as unsubstantiated as the Alliance and Cerberus being one and the same, imo.

I'd say that Cerberus has sympathizers in the higher echelons of the Alliance, and are connected via TIM's front corporations and business connections. And as a result, many in the Alliance see Cerberus as convenient and would turn a blind eye to their actions.

The Alliance is not some kind of poor victim that Anderson just saved.

Yeah but it's all controlled by one guy, basically, whos a powerhungry xenophobe. In his organization he answers to no one. If this guys organization gains upper hand on humanity, can you say dictator?

Xenophobe? Hardly, he boned an Asari Matriach........TWICE..........in ONE WEEK!!!

[KnightofPhoenix]

didymos1120 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It does not even target the Turians, Asari and Salarians.

Sometimes it does:

2168 - Assassination of 22 salarian crime syndicate members on Trident leads to takeover of narcotics trade. Reprisals bloody but tolerable.

2169 - TRAPDOOR experiments on asari captives with omega-enkaphalin to measure disruption of biotic powers. Estimate 2.5 mg active ingredient for each 25 kg of body weight; under 7.5 mg dose optimal to avoid detection by taste or smell; 3-5 Citadel standard days onset period; powers return in 2-5 Cit-stan days after last dose taken; permanent damage possible.

2181 - Matriarch Tilia Eraza targeted with omega-enkaphalin. Claims of biotic superiority to non-biotics deflated once her powers fail. Voice in citizen legislature considerably diminished.

2182 - MSV Anixara sabotaged. Catalyst added to metastable metallic hydrogen fuel by timer injection. Ship breaks apart during FTL, all hands aboard lost, turian Hierarchy hawk Raherix Ursivus killed in the process. Explosion attributed to faulty engineering.

and:

Skye Turnick, the sole surviving member of the Cerberus cell responsible for the now-infamous “torture den” of captive aliens on the Terminus Systems planet Trident, escaped from custody at 9:37 local time this morning.

I meant civilians.

Those are secretive calculated attacks. They are not designed to instill terror. A terrorist organization, by it's very nature, is public and reveals its acts and proudly assumes responsability publically.

[Sylvianus]

What  DID Cerberus for humanity ? All these years, what that Cerberus has DONE  for humanity ? Nothing.

Batarians, attacked our colonies, took tens of thousands of human slavery, launched the Skyllian blitz, have intensified their terrorist activities against us.

Killed a million humans on Terra Nova if we don't have buy the DLC. What has done Cerberus ? nothing. It's always the Alliance that has moved its ****ing ass.

Cerberus just made monstrous experiments without ever offering to humanity, attempted to build a private army.

All this, It is for their interests, ambitions, their selfish powers.

The desire to help the Alliance to make a normandy with Turians is not AT ALL altruistic. They encouraged the alliance because they wanted her to get Turian's wonderful level to the design of ships for themselves when the'll steal informations, since the alliance has learned. That's how Normandy 2 was born.

They killed politicians, just to see their fictitious companies, not be affected by a tax, killed a politician in favour of a weaker candidate they could manipulated to their ideas, killed the pope because he threatened their thoughts of human hegemony, limit their influence over the people.

Everything that done Cerberus it is for ITSELF

And I do not forgive this entity to have conducted experiments on humans, it is not protecting humans, it's madness.

Collectors, is the only thing that could get their attention. But even all this is wasted because Cerberus has not yet been able to resist this will to power, to sacrifice everything at any price. We do not win with this strategy.

Cerberus has committed more murder than brings a real contribution to humanity. They are more destabilized the Alliance instead of join them for a better fate.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 avril 2011 - 11:06 .

[AdmiralCheez]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Different scenario. The Geth attack with a flagship called Sovereign remains noticed. They do not believe Sovereign to be a reaper. They know fully well what Cerberus is.

I was not implying that Cerberus' existence would be denied.  I was implying that the whole messy ordeal could be swept under the rug to avoid conflict.

The UN representative is just that. A representative and he / she follows directive from the polity he / she is representating.

Anderson contacted a Turian military officer IIRC. Since the turians are very big of discipline, observance of rank and hierarchy (their entire polity is called the hierarchy!) then that officer got the clearance from the Turian government.

Ooh.  So the ambassador's a naughty girl.

Except the Skyllian blitz for example was much more than random pirate attacks. It was a massive Batarian financed terror pirate campaign, to scare humans off their "zone of interests". Furthermore, the exampe I was referring to was Saren's geth. Time and time again, the council refused to act to protect them.

The Council did let us know in advance that we'd get no help from them if we went all planet-grabby there.

And seriously, the Council wouldn't know the right time to act if it danced naked in front of them.

Yea, at what cost?

Too many lives and resources.  Dammit, Anderson, do it cleaner next time!

I don't know, maybe try to communicate and coordinate with the only organization that knows and did something about the Reapers rather than kill them?

Too bad they're not too keen on helping.  Isn't that right, May issue of GI?

[armass]

Seboist wrote...

armass wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

There is no situation like Cerberus today in reality. Cerberus has completely infiltrated the Alliance, everywhere, no country has ever experienced this. They have ears everywhere, and all branches are infiltrated, unable to act.

They are perfectly able to act to further human itnerests. That's is the purpose of the Alliance.
And your theory that cerberus controls and completely paralyzes the alliance is as unsubstantiated as the Alliance and Cerberus being one and the same, imo.

I'd say that Cerberus has sympathizers in the higher echelons of the Alliance, and are connected via TIM's front corporations and business connections. And as a result, many in the Alliance see Cerberus as convenient and would turn a blind eye to their actions.

The Alliance is not some kind of poor victim that Anderson just saved.

Yeah but it's all controlled by one guy, basically, whos a powerhungry xenophobe. In his organization he answers to no one. If this guys organization gains upper hand on humanity, can you say dictator?

Xenophobe? Hardly, he boned an Asari Matriach........TWICE..........in ONE WEEK!!!

Okay well his organization is xenophobic, i think jingoist is more the term for him. Still the guy clearly doesnt like aliens or even act neutral towards them. Xenophobia clearly isnt a problem to him or his organization,, just look at the people he surrounds himself with (Kai Leng, Pel). Still, unlike spectres or any special intelligence group, the guy is not kept in leash, he is dangerous!

You can try sugarcoating this with any way you can, Miranda and Kelly have tried, and Kelly clearly didn't know that much about the organization to begin with, Miranda saw the truth in the end.

Modifié par armass, 19 avril 2011 - 11:10 .

[AdmiralCheez]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I meant civilians.

Those are secretive calculated attacks. They are not designed to instill terror. A terrorist organization, by it's very nature, is public and reveals its acts and proudly assumes responsability publically.

Calling Cerberus terrorists is indeed a misnomer.  However, that does not make them paladins of justice.

[Someone With Mass]

Terrorists aren't announcing when and where they're going to attack. Most of the times. It helps them inflict fear in their victims.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 19 avril 2011 - 11:05 .

[jbblue05]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Stuff like this never stays hidden for long anyway.  Not in the age of the extranet and the Shadow Broker.

It would be more wiser for Anderson to do this post-reaper war

Did I say the Alliance were "good guys?"  Hell no!  They're a political entity, man!  Stop putting words in my mouth that don't belong there.  Sheesh.

Alliance= cooperation and unity  Cerberus= domination alien oppression

And no, I don't expect the Alliance to spead its buttcheeks for the aliens; I simply think that such aggressive policies are uncalled for.  I am an advocate of slow, stable, and steady growth, the kind that doesn't start wars over whose planet it is.

So why would the Alliance be OK with the Turians sticking their talos in the the Alliance pie

Only Cerberus facilities were attacked, and only active members of Cerberus were arrested (I think).

According to the Turians  Were some of these Alliance officials really with Cerberus or were they political obstacles that he Turians wanted to get out of the way

DID YOU PLAY ME1?

Ahem.  Anyway, saying the Taetrus conflict makes all turians corrupt bastards is like saying the French Revolution makes all humans corrupt bastards.  While the war was indeed brutal (and I kind of want to meet that Partinax guy--what a BAMF), that does not mean that either side was inherently evil.

look at the similarities that's how the Alliance branded Cerberus terrotists/
I did play ME1 I just don't believe the first thing I hear.

Hell, I don't think Cerberus is even evil.  They're far too extreme in their methods and their ultimate goal makes them dangerous, but it's not like TIM is Satan or anything.

Do you think the Turians and Anderson were extreme in their actions against Cerberus.?

Well, it's pretty clear Cerberus isn't even in the chip pile anymore and that you have to seek help of the other races, soooooo....  Yeah.  Safer to bet on the Hierarchy.

Cerberus still has that MAC  that one-shotted a reaper.
If TIM lost that weapon I'm sure the book would mention it.
Cerberus could be fighting the Reapers and trying to kill SHepard

I don't have the book, man.  Help me out here.

Just by the book and I don't feellike writing 4-5 paragraphs

Like Cerberus would actually be helpful in the un-screwing..

Yep.  Those mooks with katanas and rocketboots are totally here to help you.  Don't mind them as they chop your head off.

Lets focus on the events preceding and during Retribution.  Not the future 

Modifié par jbblue05, 19 avril 2011 - 11:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
I was not implying that Cerberus' existence would be denied.  I was implying that the whole messy ordeal could be swept under the rug to avoid conflict.

I doubt Turian hawks would think that way. It may be a stereotype, but Turians are not known for diplomacy, that's handled by the Asari. Turians generally shoot problems on sight and proudly boast about it.

The Council did let us know in advance that we'd get no help from them if we went all planet-grabby there.

Yea I know. The point is, they think destroying Cerberus is more valuable than human lives.

If Illium, which is on the borders of the Terminus systems, got attacked. Do you seriously think the Turians are going to say no to the Asari?

And seriously, the Council wouldn't know the right time to act if it danced naked in front of them.

I am starting to think the same of the Alliance.

Too bad they're not too keen on helping.  Isn't that right, May issue of GI?

We still don't know the details. They also said Shepard died and that Legion is trying to kill Shepard in ME2.

It could be the writers fell on their heads and decided to make Cerberus as idiotic as the rest. would be a shame. Oh well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Terrorists aren't announcing when and where they're going to attack. Most of the times. It helps them inflict fear in their victims.

But they announce it after.

[Dean_the_Young]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard has multiple counts of genocide under his belt by ME3. Cerberus has, arguably, one: the Collectors.

Um, my Shep didn't kill the Rachni, so no genocide for me.

What about the Thorian?

Oh yeah, but that thing needed to be taken down!

And as long as we're channeling Godwin, I'm sure the H-man felt the Jews needed to be taken down as well.


How about the Geth Heretics, both those on Virmire (millions) and the station?

How about the Collectors?

How about the many parts of the Gestalt AI that was Sovereign?

What do you aim to do about the Reapers?

[88mphSlayer]

Dave666 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

mrsph wrote...

I'm starting to see an abusive relationship fostering here with Cerberus.

"If I do good they'll love me again!"

and now I feel bad.

eh, i'm not loyal to any organization in the mass effect universe, doing so is naive

Cerberus is just the best tool for Shepard for defeating the reapers, like it or not

why some people want to burn all of their tools so they can go back to getting trapped in a dock and being ordered to ignore the reaper threat is beyond me

i mean do people REALLY think the Alliance and the Council is going to be all "oh shepard we wuv you! please come back! we'll do anything for you! <3<3<3 :crying:"

yeah... by the time they realize you're right and not a genocidal rogue spectre they'll be so tied up or drained of manpower & resources that they won't be a factor in winning the war anyways

I have to ask.

How much 'manpower and resources' do you believe that a small organisation like Cerberus can provide?

Lets take the scenario that the Reapers have arrived and the Council now fully supports you, whatever you need they'll provide.  Even if the Council could only access 10% of its usual manpower and resources its still several orders of magnitude beyond what Cerberus could provide at 100%.

that's like asking gps to bomb a building... now if you use gps to guide a bomb to a building - that'll destroy a building

Eh? GPS=The Council? What?

no...

GPS = a tool

Cerberus = a very secretive/technologically powerful tool that revived shepard, gave you the power to destroy the collectors, gave you the info needed to take down the Shadow Broker, has the ties and information and resources needed for Shepard to do anything on his/her own

The Council = a bunch of idiotic figureheads who are more concerned with maintaining power than being leaders

The Alliance = a huge tool that would be too occupied defending earth to help you recruit/organize reinforcements

[Someone With Mass]

thurmanator692 wrote...

So, How reliable is that issue of GI? Did they confirm specifically that base-keepers are going to be attacked by Cerberus?

Also, why are people trying to say that what Cerberus does is the 'good thing'? They know what they do is horrible, but they do it anyways. saying that they're the good guys actually goes against what they themselves say.

I think Cerberus will put Shepard in a position where they'll attack him either way.

[Dean_the_Young]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Than their souls will rot I hope. If there is corruption, I'll stop it. And if people are willing to go to such lengths to win, than what are we fighting for? Certainly not Humanity.

I'm always both bemused and perplexed by the number of people who, when showed countless historic examples of barbarity, ruthlessness, hypocrisy, and subterfuge, proceed on to claim that these are not intrensic and timeless characteristics of 'Humanity', as if they were added vices to an otherwise pure and noble idea.

[Dave666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

What  DID Cerberus for humanity ? All these years, what that Cerberus has DONE  for humanity ? Nothing.

Eliminated troubling politicians and leaders who were a burden/threat to human interests like a certain Pope and a turian hawk.(Which helped Cerberus not Humanity in general)

They conducted risky research on biotics, research which paid off. (which killed countless biotics which might have helped us against the Reapers and produced one unstable super biotic who's dying.)

They expanded human influence on Trident. (missed this reference so no comment).

They got the Alliance to build the Normandy, the most advanced and radical ship in the galaxy, and in the process enabled us to witness turian ship building practices.(Again for their own interests, so they could gain Turian Tech, the fact that it helped Humanity was a byproduct, not the goal itself).

They prevented batarian terrorists from killing the Council.(I'll grant you this one)

They developed a weapon to use against the geth in the event of war.(Which backfired in a splendid fashion and nearly crippled all of civilization).

They located several Prothean and geth technologies useful in furthering our understanding of biotics and communications.(And kept them to themselves rather than passing on these benefits to Humanity).

They saved humanity from the Collectors. (They helped Shepard do that, they didn't do it themselves).

Modifié par Dave666, 19 avril 2011 - 11:13 .

[armass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

What  DID Cerberus for humanity ? All these years, what that Cerberus has DONE  for humanity ? Nothing.

Eliminated troubling politicians and leaders who were a burden/threat to human interests like a certain Pope and a turian hawk.

They conducted risky research on biotics, research which paid off.

They expanded human influence on Trident.

They got the Alliance to build the Normandy, the most advanced and radical ship in the galaxy, and in the process enabled us to witness turian ship building practices.

They prevented batarian terrorists from killing the Council.

They developed a weapon to use against the geth in the event of war.

They located several Prothean and geth technologies useful in furthering our understanding of biotics and communications.

They saved humanity from the Collectors.

*Mimicking Shatner* But... at...what...cost?

[Seboist]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

mrsph wrote...

I'm starting to see an abusive relationship fostering here with Cerberus.

"If I do good they'll love me again!"

and now I feel bad.

eh, i'm not loyal to any organization in the mass effect universe, doing so is naive

Cerberus is just the best tool for Shepard for defeating the reapers, like it or not

why some people want to burn all of their tools so they can go back to getting trapped in a dock and being ordered to ignore the reaper threat is beyond me

i mean do people REALLY think the Alliance and the Council is going to be all "oh shepard we wuv you! please come back! we'll do anything for you! <3<3<3 :crying:"

yeah... by the time they realize you're right and not a genocidal rogue spectre they'll be so tied up or drained of manpower & resources that they won't be a factor in winning the war anyways

I have to ask.

How much 'manpower and resources' do you believe that a small organisation like Cerberus can provide?

Lets take the scenario that the Reapers have arrived and the Council now fully supports you, whatever you need they'll provide.  Even if the Council could only access 10% of its usual manpower and resources its still several orders of magnitude beyond what Cerberus could provide at 100%.

that's like asking gps to bomb a building... now if you use gps to guide a bomb to a building - that'll destroy a building

Eh? GPS=The Council? What?

no...

GPS = a tool

Cerberus = a very secretive/technologically powerful tool that revived shepard, gave you the power to destroy the collectors, gave you the info needed to take down the Shadow Broker, has the ties and information and resources needed for Shepard to do anything on his/her own

The Council = a bunch of idiotic figureheads who are more concerned with maintaining power than being leaders

The Alliance = a huge tool that would be too occupied defending earth to help you recruit/organize reinforcements

True indeed. My paragade colonist and ruthless Shep would even side with the same Batarian slavers who attacked her colony in exchange for their support.

When it comes to fighting a machine race that has been exterminating species for millions of years you don't let petty grudges and idealism get in the way of success.

[armass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Than their souls will rot I hope. If there is corruption, I'll stop it. And if people are willing to go to such lengths to win, than what are we fighting for? Certainly not Humanity.

I'm always both bemused and perplexed by the number of people who, when showed countless historic examples of barbarity, ruthlessness, hypocrisy, and subterfuge, proceed on to claim that these are not intrensic and timeless characteristics of 'Humanity', as if they were added vices to an otherwise pure and noble idea.

We have a potential to get better, we are still after all in our infancy as species.