742 réponses à ce sujet

[The BS Police]

didymos1120 wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

The STG did the Genophage, the Turians tried to destroy us, the Quarians unwittingly released an AI race and are planning engaging them in war, the SPECTREs have done god knows what, etc etc. Its an ugly ugly galaxy with other races willing to do whatever it takes.

"But they did it too!" isn't typically considered a valid excuse.

Snip!

Modifié par The BS Police, 21 avril 2011 - 09:32 .

[didymos1120]

The BS Police wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

The STG did the Genophage, the Turians tried to destroy us, the Quarians unwittingly released an AI race and are planning engaging them in war, the SPECTREs have done god knows what, etc etc. Its an ugly ugly galaxy with other races willing to do whatever it takes.

"But they did it too!" isn't typically considered a valid excuse.

There is a big diffirence though, Anderson (Who is human) kicked a Human Terrorist Organization in the balls, that is a huge diffirence than the above listed and is morally commendable as far as I'm concerned.

That isn't what the person I responded to was commenting on.  They were commenting on Cerberus' activities.

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

"But they did it too!" isn't typically considered a valid excuse.

Yeah, but "they do it too" is.

No, the shift in tense doesn't magically change things.

[The BS Police]

didymos1120 wrote...

The BS Police wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

The STG did the Genophage, the Turians tried to destroy us, the Quarians unwittingly released an AI race and are planning engaging them in war, the SPECTREs have done god knows what, etc etc. Its an ugly ugly galaxy with other races willing to do whatever it takes.

"But they did it too!" isn't typically considered a valid excuse.

There is a big diffirence though, Anderson (Who is human) kicked a Human Terrorist Organization in the balls, that is a huge diffirence than the above listed and is morally commendable as far as I'm concerned.

That isn't what the person I responded to was commenting on.  They were commenting on Cerberus' activities.

Ah I see, my mistake, carry on then!

[Tennessee88]

ExtremeOne wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

The STG did the Genophage, the Turians tried to destroy us, the Quarians unwittingly released an AI race and are planning engaging them in war, the SPECTREs have done god knows what, etc etc. Its an ugly ugly galaxy with other races willing to do whatever it takes.

 


Thats because no one wants to listen to it  



"But they did it too!" isn't typically considered a valid excuse.

I know it isn't, especially on these forums. I just find it interesting that Cerberus has become the banner of evil in these games. I am guessing its because people did not have the choice when it came to working with them. Regardless, this singular focus on Cerberus is interesting simply because there are so many forces which are morally questionable in Mass Effect.

I do enjoy watching how Bioware keeps taking what players have formed to be the truth in their minds only to slam a challenge in their face.

[Tennessee88]

Mesina2 wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

I understand what he is saying. Udina is predictable and entirely focussed on his job. I think Bioware went a little overboard with the power hungry politician theme, but in the end most diplomats have to act like Udina whether they like it or not. Honestly I can understand why he keeps his distance, and especially why he refuses to give Shepard SPECTRE status. Shepard has come back mysteriously from the dead after two years absence and is rumored to be associated with a terrorist organization. What responsible leader would be willing to do anything with Shepard even if he did believe him.

Backstabbing me in ME1 is enough for me to hate him.

Fair enough, and I am by no means saying I like the guy. I really wish Bioware had been more imaginative with Udina's character. How someone that billigerent and unlikable got that post is beyond me. But when it comes to politics, diplomacy, and understanding the game... he is by far the most qualified and effective.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

"But they did it too!" isn't typically considered a valid excuse.

Yeah, but "they do it too" is.

No, the shift in tense doesn't magically change things.

But it does change the excusability of things.

[Zulu_DFA]

The BS Police wrote...

There is a big diffirence though, Anderson (Who is human) kicked a Human Terrorist Organization in the balls, that is a huge diffirence than the above listed and is morally commendable as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, only it wasn't Anderson at all who did the kicking. It were the Turians (who are not Humans), and the pain of it was somehow suffered by a not-so-terrorist Human organization, which Anderson was a part of. Hence, he's a traitor.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 avril 2011 - 09:45 .

[Zeratul20]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

"But they did it too!" isn't typically considered a valid excuse.

Yeah, but "they do it too" is.

No, the shift in tense doesn't magically change things.

But it does change the excusability of things.

Not necessarily. For example, would torture be permissible just because the other side is doing it? Would the use of biological and chemical weapons, cluster bombs, etc. be alright, if the other side is using them?

(Though variations of the quote exist:) "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Start skimping on human rights, and the other side will have already won.

[Zulu_DFA]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Not necessarily. For example, would torture be permissible just because the other side is doing it? Would the use of biological and chemical weapons, cluster bombs, etc. be alright, if the other side is using them?

Absolutely.

Moreover, only the readiness to use such methods can prevent the other side from using them (if it has them at its disposal, of course).

[Fiery Phoenix]

I applaud Zulu for noticing that the Cerberus guys aren't armed with lethal weapons. Certainly a good catch.

[Tennessee88]

My question to everyone is why was it necessary to strike Cerberus right then and there? Would it not have been more beneficial to work with people he trusted in the Alliance to clean up there ranks from the inside? It would have taken longer yes, but certainly avoiding damage to the Alliance's image right before the Reaper invasion would have been the more prudent choice.

[Tennessee88]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

"But they did it too!" isn't typically considered a valid excuse.

Yeah, but "they do it too" is.

No, the shift in tense doesn't magically change things.

But it does change the excusability of things.

Not necessarily. For example, would torture be permissible just because the other side is doing it? Would the use of biological and chemical weapons, cluster bombs, etc. be alright, if the other side is using them?

(Though variations of the quote exist:) "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Start skimping on human rights, and the other side will have already won.

I apologize for taking the thread in this direction. I should have made my point clear up front instead of waiting for a response. Why is it that Cerberus is focussed upon more so than others. The very alien force which Anderson used tried to destroy humanity simply because we were curious about technology we just discovered... does that not deserve the same level of debate?

[Zulu_DFA]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I applaud Zulu for noticing that the Cerberus guys aren't armed with lethal weapons. Certainly a good catch.

Well, they are, but the fact that they do have non-lethals too (that four-eyed ninja chick also looks like she is more into sado-maso, than murdering anybody) is certainly worth noting, and is certainly adding up to the mystery of TIM's about-turn.

[didymos1120]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I applaud Zulu for noticing that the Cerberus guys aren't armed with lethal weapons. Certainly a good catch.

Once again, please note the man on the left:

[Fiery Phoenix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I applaud Zulu for noticing that the Cerberus guys aren't armed with lethal weapons. Certainly a good catch.

Well, they are, but the fact that they do have non-lethals too (that four-eyed ninja chick also looks like she is more into sado-maso, than murdering anybody) is certainly worth noting, and is certainly adding up to the mystery of TIM's about-turn.

What I find especially funny about this is TIM's hunt for Shepard at such a critical time. With the Reapers blowing up the galaxy, you'd think capturing Shepard is the last thing TIM wants to think about. I like the deniablity theory, but something tells me this is directly related to the Reaper issue.

[Zulu_DFA]

Tennessee88 wrote...

My question to everyone is why was it necessary to strike Cerberus right then and there? Would it not have been more beneficial to work with people he trusted in the Alliance to clean up there ranks from the inside? It would have taken longer yes, but certainly avoiding damage to the Alliance's image right before the Reaper invasion would have been the more prudent choice.

It is stated in the book (and expanded a bit in the LotSB) that Anderson couldn't trust anyone right away. But he had no option to take his time either due to the nature of Kahlee's request: raid Cerberus ASAP in hopes of rescuing an ex-Cerberus ex- drug addict and active scumbag called Paul Grayson.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[didymos1120]

Tennessee88 wrote...
The very alien force which Anderson used tried to destroy humanity simply because we were curious about technology we just discovered... does that not deserve the same level of debate?

No, they didn't attempt to wipe us out.  They wiped out most of a fleet, and occupied a colony, and they were mobilizing for war after Shanxi was liberated, but it stopped there, and how far it might have gone is speculation.  The actual casualty numbers: 623 humans killed.  If they were trying, they weren't trying very hard.  More turians actually died than humans, though Revelation doesn't give an exact figure.

[Zulu_DFA]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I applaud Zulu for noticing that the Cerberus guys aren't armed with lethal weapons. Certainly a good catch.

Well, they are, but the fact that they do have non-lethals too (that four-eyed ninja chick also looks like she is more into sado-maso, than murdering anybody) is certainly worth noting, and is certainly adding up to the mystery of TIM's about-turn.

What I find especially funny about this is TIM's hunt for Shepard at such a critical time. With the Reapers blowing up the galaxy, you'd think capturing Shepard is the last thing TIM wants to think about. I like the deniablity theory, but something tells me this is directly related to the Reaper issue.

I can't myself fully rule it out too. Harbinger wanted Shepard alive, after all.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 avril 2011 - 10:19 .

[Tennessee88]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

"But they did it too!" isn't typically considered a valid excuse.

Yeah, but "they do it too" is.

No, the shift in tense doesn't magically change things.

But it does change the excusability of things.

Not necessarily. For example, would torture be permissible just because the other side is doing it? Would the use of biological and chemical weapons, cluster bombs, etc. be alright, if the other side is using them?

(Though variations of the quote exist:) "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Start skimping on human rights, and the other side will have already won.

Well I will do my best to avoid current day politics in challenging your Franklin quote (of which I am a big fan). My question to you is does that hold up in a galaxy where many of the governments being interacted with are alien. That quote was written for human governments which would only interact with other humans. You specifically said "human rights."


Also it is specifically meant for situations where your own government is infringing on your rights, not the tactics used against enemy forces. So it can be applied to situations such as Akuze and the Element Zero dump...

Finally if thats your stance, is that not a damnation of the SPECTRE program and our very interaction with the Citadel. Humanity allows for alien governments to have a force which does not answer to the law, that attacked us because we ignorantly explored (with no explanation), etc. 

It certainly would condemn the Turians and Salarians for the deployment of the Genophage.

Just curious on how you reconcile that quote with the SPECTREs and the Genophage...

[Tennessee88]

didymos1120 wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...
The very alien force which Anderson used tried to destroy humanity simply because we were curious about technology we just discovered... does that not deserve the same level of debate?

No, they didn't attempt to wipe us out.  They wiped out most of a fleet, and occupied a colony, and they were mobilizing for war after Shanxi was liberated, but it stopped there, and how far it might have gone is speculation.  The actual casualty numbers: 623 humans killed.  If they were trying, they weren't trying very hard.  More turians actually died than humans, though Revelation doesn't give an exact figure.

Your point is valid, "wipe out" was too extreme. However it is important to note that when they took Shanxi they thought they had won because they had no idea how large the Alliance was. They sought to subjugate us militarily and believed they had achieved that goal. So allow me to rephrase, was the Turian actions after First Contact an appropriate response?

I would argue absolutely not, there were plenty of ways to go about that situation. The Turians have shown they are capable of pragmatic diplomacy.

[Tennessee88]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

My question to everyone is why was it necessary to strike Cerberus right then and there? Would it not have been more beneficial to work with people he trusted in the Alliance to clean up there ranks from the inside? It would have taken longer yes, but certainly avoiding damage to the Alliance's image right before the Reaper invasion would have been the more prudent choice.

It is stated in the book (and expanded a bit in the LotSB) that Anderson couldn't trust anyone right away. But he had no option to take his time either due to the nature of Kahlee's request: raid Cerberus ASAP in hopes of rescuing an ex-Cerberus ex- drug addict and active scumbag called Paul Grayson.

The key point in this is "right away." Anderson broke rank (something any officer would stand trail for) and took it upon himself to act immediately in order to save a kidnap victim. I would find it impossible to believe that Anderson had no one he could trust. I am guessing since the arrest of Cerberus members in Alliance ranks happened in concert with the raid that he had the information. (If they got the information from the Cerberus bases let me know, its been awhile since I read the book.) Anderson valued to rescue of a single man over the well being and strength of the Alliance. If the Reaper threat didn't exist I could somewhat understand his logic, but the fact is that it does.

[didymos1120]

Tennessee88 wrote...

So allow me to rephrase, was the Turian actions after First Contact an appropriate response?

I agree that they overreacted quite a bit, but another thing to keep in mind is that the relay the humans were fiddling with was actually within the territory of the Turian Empire, so it's at least somewhat understandable why they freaked out. At least at first.  The way they treated Shanxi....no. Leveling city blocks to get a single fire team is taking it way too far.  When it comes to the mobilization later on....I can kinda understand that too: humanity basically pasted them when the turians were sure they were no longer a significant threat, which had to kinda freak them out all over again. Still, I don't agree with the decision to just immediately "go on the march" rather than simply prepare to and then at least attempt to open talks. And I'm pretty sure that whatever they would have done after that, I'd also find it as excessive as their actions on Shanxi.

Modifié par didymos1120, 21 avril 2011 - 10:48 .

[Zeratul20]

Tennessee88 wrote...

Zeratul20 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

"But they did it too!" isn't typically considered a valid excuse.

Yeah, but "they do it too" is.

No, the shift in tense doesn't magically change things.

But it does change the excusability of things.

Not necessarily. For example, would torture be permissible just because the other side is doing it? Would the use of biological and chemical weapons, cluster bombs, etc. be alright, if the other side is using them?

(Though variations of the quote exist:) "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Start skimping on human rights, and the other side will have already won.

Well I will do my best to avoid current day politics in challenging your Franklin quote (of which I am a big fan). My question to you is does that hold up in a galaxy where many of the governments being interacted with are alien. That quote was written for human governments which would only interact with other humans. You specifically said "human rights."

True, because we do not have a similar, contemporary scenario. Hence, there has been no need for something broader than "human rights." I would assume that, in the ME universe, this concept would have been expanded to the rights of sentient, self-aware species, especially in Council space. (Read: they oppose slavery, for example.) For example, national basic rights documents have been expandend into (and are generally superceded by) international human rights texts. I must admit, though, that this is idle speculation, so heck, who knows. Nevertheless, the initial point still stands.

Also it is specifically meant for situations where your own government
is infringing on your rights, not the tactics used against enemy forces.
So it can be applied to situations such as Akuze and the Element Zero
dump...

Also true. Nevertheless, the principle of the quote can be applied to the current situation. Combine this with the slippery slope-metaphor: where do you stop? What's keeping you from torturing or experimenting upon your own citizens. (E.g.: Akuze...)
Tactics used against enemy forces might not've been meant, when that quote was uttered. Nevertheless, in our contemporary time we generally do accept that we simply can't do certain things, because of international treaties, basic human rights, etc... Giving that up, means you're already destroying a fundamental part of your own civilization. Again: slippery slope principle, etc.
Sadly, as shown in contemporary examples (which I won't mention either), even "human rights" tends to be a mallable concept, depending on who you're facing. That's not how it should be, however.

Finally if thats your stance, is that not a damnation of the SPECTRE
program and our very interaction with the Citadel. Humanity allows for
alien governments to have a force which does not answer to the law, that
attacked us because we ignorantly explored (with no explanation), etc.

It certainly would condemn the Turians and Salarians for the deployment of the Genophage.

Just curious on how you reconcile that quote with the SPECTREs and the Genophage...

Indeed. Which is exactly why I always play my Shep as a "just because we can break the rules, doesn't mean we should" bloke. Even so, Spectres still answer to the council. They can't go -too- far without having their status rescinded.
So, I don't see how any of those examples would be acceptable. What they did was wrong, and the whole SPECTRE program would be stretching it. I tend to ignore that, though, because it's a game and, as long as it doesn't have any real-world-implications, I don't mind. I usually don't try to apply real-world-interpretations to games or flicks, unless if they're actually trying to be incredibly realistic.

EDIT: ... And by posting this I've done what I really don't like to do, i.e. apply real-world logic to fiction. Shootmenow.

Modifié par Zeratul20, 21 avril 2011 - 11:03 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Ah, yes, "human rights"... We have confirmed that claim.