742 réponses à ce sujet

[NKKKK]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

armass wrote...

Gotta wonder what goes on in the head of TIM supporters, especially now. How is he a saviour of humanity if he tries to kill Shepard who clearly is our best hope in ME3 in uniting the galaxy? He's undermining everything Shepards doing while the earth burns.

This doesn't look like a lethal weapon to me...

It's lethality depends on the user, no really, Tonfas ****ing hurt .

[Sylvianus]

I am 100% pro-human. Between humanity and the council, I always choose humanity, therefore we do not doubt my membership.

However, I do not consider the gesture of Anderson as a betrayal.

He's a soldier facing a hopeless situation, and almost impossible. The alliance is too stacked, to save itself, the Alliance is doomed if nobody acts.

And to act, it necessarily implies to do outside because the Cerberus 's spies are everywhere,  it is impossible to predict action without they are preventable.

So yes, the human sovereignty was violated and that his pride too, but that's the price to pay, they will involve only good things.

Anderson serves as Shepard, events forced him to use unconventional means to eliminate a threat.

And I'm sorry but Cerberus is a threat to the Alliance, he had completely infiltrated with a capacity of nearly lethal nuisance to that organization.

Shepard with terrorists to save humanity.
Anderson with Turians to Save Alliance.

This is not a betrayal, it's pragmatism. In the end, yes it has weakened Cerberus, and perhaps a bit the Alliance, but now that weakness can become a force without the damage of a faction working actively within it.

I respect even more Anderson, who had the courage to turn against her specie for its good, it is also the patriotism in an impossible situation .

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 avril 2011 - 03:38 .

[AdmiralCheez]

NKKKK wrote...

It's lethality depends on the user, no really, Tonfas ****ing hurt .

Not to mention how many volts are potentially running through that thing.

[Nashiktal]

Sylvianus wrote...

I am 100% pro-human. Between humanity and the council, I always choose humanity, therefore we do not doubt my membership.

However, I do not consider the gesture of Anderson as a betrayal.

He's a soldier facing a hopeless situation, and almost impossible. The alliance is too stacked, to save itself, the Alliance is doomed if nobody acts.

And to act, it necessarily implies to do outside because the Cerberus 's spies are everywhere,  it is impossible to predict action without they are preventable.

So yes, the human sovereignty was violated and that his pride too, but that's the price to pay, they will involve only good things.

Anderson serves as Shepard, events forced him to use unconventional means to eliminate a threat.

And I'm sorry but Cerberus is a threat to the Alliance, he had completely infiltrated with a capacity of nearly lethal nuisance to that organization.

Shepard with terrorists to save humanity.
Anderson with Turians to Save Alliance.

This is not the betrayal, it's pragmatism. In the end, yes it has weakened Cerberus, and perhaps a bit the Alliance, but now that weakness can become a force without the damage of a faction working actively within it.

I respect even more Anderson, who had the courage to turn against her specie for its good, it is also the patriotism in an impossible situation .

What are you talking about? Anderson did more harm than good, most of the harm not even having ANYTHING to do with cerberus. And you know what? Any good he did... HE DID ACCIDENTALY.

Remember, he went in to help his girlfriend save a friend, not stop a reaper construct. He weakened the Alliance politically, hurt the only organization that has had any progress fighting reapers, and threw away his councilor/ambassador position that humanity and shep fought so hard to achieve.

He ****ed up.

[AdmiralCheez]

Nashiktal wrote...

What are you talking about? Anderson did more harm than good, most of the harm not even having ANYTHING to do with cerberus. And you know what? Any good he did... HE DID ACCIDENTALY.

Remember, he went in to help his girlfriend save a friend, not stop a reaper construct. He weakened the Alliance politically, hurt the only organization that has had any progress fighting reapers, and threw away his councilor/ambassador position that humanity and shep fought so hard to achieve.

He ****ed up.

1. The books are stupid and do not exist.

2. Just because a character seriously herps the derp doesn't mean I can't like him.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sylvianus wrote...

So yes, the human sovereignty was violated and that his pride too, but that's the price to pay

The price to pay was to tell Kahlee to forget about one ex-Cerberus ex- drug addict and come up with a plan that did not involve jeopardizing the Alliance sovereignty. Anderson was not ready to pay that price. Therefore he is a traitor.

Nashiktal wrote...

Any good he did... HE DID ACCIDENTALY.

You mean: by accidentally failing to screw up all TIM's contingency efforts, right?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 avril 2011 - 03:48 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Asking the turians for help in shutting down terrorists is treason?

[Sylvianus]

The thing to understand is that Cerberus is not working for mankind within the Alliance.

Cerberus inside, working for him, his ambitions, to spy on and disrupt this organization, he does not consider able of representing humanity I remind you.

Yes Anderson helps her girfriend, but it's not just for how he uses the Turians. He sees this as just an opportunity to help his girlfriend while getting rid of a threat to the Alliance, impossible to eradicate.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 avril 2011 - 03:53 .

[Nashiktal]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

What are you talking about? Anderson did more harm than good, most of the harm not even having ANYTHING to do with cerberus. And you know what? Any good he did... HE DID ACCIDENTALY.

Remember, he went in to help his girlfriend save a friend, not stop a reaper construct. He weakened the Alliance politically, hurt the only organization that has had any progress fighting reapers, and threw away his councilor/ambassador position that humanity and shep fought so hard to achieve.

He ****ed up.

1. The books are stupid and do not exist.

2. Just because a character seriously herps the derp doesn't mean I can't like him.

Of course you can still like him. I like him, in fact that is why I feel so betrayed by him.

Anderson is as close to a father as Shep can get in the games, and he just tosses aside his responsibilities, and trust shep gave him for a little tail.

[AdmiralCheez]

Nashiktal wrote...

Of course you can still like him. I like him, in fact that is why I feel so betrayed by him.

Anderson is as close to a father as Shep can get in the games, and he just tosses aside his responsibilities, and trust shep gave him for a little tail.

Hence why the books don't exist.  That was completely out of character for him.

Kahlee's a bit of a "Black Hole Sue": the universe seems to bend to her will.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sylvianus wrote...
The alliance is too stacked, to save itself, the Alliance is doomed if nobody acts.

How is Cerberus a threat to the Alliance in the immediate future? Especially considering how Cerberus is one of the few organizatons that knows about the reapers and are preparing for them.

Cerberus was the one who helped the Normandy project. Cerberus helps fund the alliance with allied and front corporations. There is a lot Cerberus is doing for the Alliance's benefit, whether it knows it or not (we know that many in the higher echelons are Cerberus sympathizers). And if Cerberus is a long term threat to the Alliance, then there is a time and place for it to be delt with. Later.

So yes, the human sovereignty was violated and that his pride too, but that's the price to pay, they will involve only good things.

No, violation of sovereignity in a delicate political context is not a good thing. Nor is it a good thing to weaken the one human group who gives a damn about Reapers.

It is rather a brash short sighted act intoxicated by over-sentimentality.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[Merchant2006]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Hence why the books don't exist.  That was completely out of character for him.

But it happened. Just because things don't conform to some of our perceived images of characters and their behavour doesn't mean it didn't happen. Oh shi- *Serious Business stamp pressed onto forehead*

Goddamit. Now I remember why I don't go to deep into conversations,.

Modifié par Merchant2006, 19 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[ZeroDotZero]

If it comes down to saving Anderson or TIM, Anderson is so dead. Shepard would kill him personally.

[darknoon5]

Zulu_DFA wrote...






This doesn't look like a lethal weapon to me...

Yeah, but the assault rifle in his hand does.

[Sylvianus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
The alliance is too stacked, to save itself, the Alliance is doomed if nobody acts.

How is Cerberus a threat to the Alliance in the immediate future? Especially considering how Cerberus is one of the few organizatons that knows about the reapers and are preparing for them.

Cerberus was the one who helped the Normandy project. Cerberus helps fund the alliance with allied and front corporations. There is a lot Cerberus is doing for the Alliance's benefit, whether it knows it or not (we know that many in the higher echelons are Cerberus sympathizers). And if Cerberus is a long term threat to the Alliance, then there is a time and place for it to be delt with. Later.

So yes, the human sovereignty was violated and that his pride too, but that's the price to pay, they will involve only good things.

No, violation of sovereignity in a delicate political context is not a good thing. Nor is it a good thing to weaken the one human group who gives a damn about Reapers.

It is rather a brash short sighted act intoxicated by over-sentimentality.

1 - Cerberus has killed an admiral of the Alliance, politicians, Cerberus has made monstrous experiments on humans, on Alliance 's soldiers on Akuzei, experiments on biotics. Cerberus more than once demonstrated that he was uncontrollable and that he acted often according to his interests.  Not that of humanity and especially not the Alliance. And if its interests were threatened, he killed. If the alliance is seen as a threat to its interests, it would down  the Alliance by any means. Alliance is completely infiltrated, if Cerberus wanted to destabilize this organization, he would have completely capabilities. And if its interests were threatened, he killed.And Anderson knows that very well.

Cerberus spy  the Alliance to develop itself, any project has a long-term goal, making it more powerful to threaten the superiority of the first organization representing humanity,  which is regarded aggressively as subject to aliens. How not think they will ever hostile to the Alliance? For me it is clear that Cerberus seeks the destruction of the Alliance. Just look at the thoughts of TIM in mass effect evolution. Eventually this organization, which is recognized as a threat far greater than Terra Firma by the council, will become the greatest threat to the Alliance for its resources, and especially his aggressiveness.
　
2 - This is's true. But after the storm comes the sun, once rid of all this threat within the Alliance can proceed without worry of a front that it can't anticipate and combat, as it faces other enemies. Then the policy quickly loses its interest when there is a greater threat.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 avril 2011 - 04:19 .

[Zulu_DFA]

darknoon5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...





This doesn't look like a lethal weapon to me...

Yeah, but the assault rifle in his hand does.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

Yeah, and it is pointed at the deck.

Besides, why would the Cerberus goons carry non-lethal weapons at all, if their task was to kill Shepard?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sylvianus wrote...
1 - Cerberus has killed an admiral of the Alliance, politicians, Cerberus has made monstrous experiments on humans, on Alliance 's soldiers on Akuzei, experiments on biotics. Cerberus more than once demonstrated that he was uncontrollable and that he acted often according to his interests.  Not that of humanity and especially not the Alliance. And if its interests were threatened, he killed. If the alliance is seen as a threat to its interests, it would take to the Alliance by any means. Alliance is completely infiltrated, if Cerberus wanted to destabilize this organization, he would have completely capabilities. And if its interests were threatened, he killed..And Anderson knows that very well.

That does not constitute an immediate threat (and is a long term benefit) and the best way to prevent such a thing, is to show that the Alliance is not an enemy of Cerberus for now. The time called for patience and prudence and sometimes, not engaging an enemy is more prudent than engaging, or rather have someone else engage it.

And maybe the Alliance is not completely inflitrated but is willfully turning a blind eye to Cerberus because they think it's useful. Did Anderson think of that?

Cerberus spy for the Alliance to develop itself, any project has a long-term goal, making it more powerful to threaten the superiority of the first organization representing humanity,  which is regarded aggressively as subject to aliens. How not think they will ever hostile to the Alliance? For me it is clear that Cerberus seeks the destruction of the Alliance. Just look at the thoughts of TIM in mass effect evolution. Eventually this organization, which is recognized as a threat far greater than Terra Firma by the council, will become the greatest threat to the Alliance for its resources, and especially his aggressiveness.

Now the greatest threat to the Alliance are the Reapers. Even if Cerberus, by some miracle manages to become an existential threat to the Alliance with its 100+ members, the time was not appropriate to do such things.

And if anyone had to deal with it, it has to be the Alliance. Can they call for outside help? Sure. But to have aliens fix the problem unilaterally without the Alliance even knowing? If I was a Turian, I'd laugh my ass off and spit on humanity for being that weak. Not only that, I'd probably accuse the Alliance of secretly supporting Cerberus. 
All of that is political ammunition in a political context that is fragile. And humanity's position is fragile. Half of power is image.

2 - This is's true. But after the storm comes the sun, once rid of all this threat within the Alliance can proceed without worry of a front that it can anticipate and combat, as she faces other enemies. Then the policy quickly loses its interest when there is a greater threat.

Except the Alliance does not want to recognize the Reaper threat (until it's maybe too late). If it did, your argument might have some validity. Right now, Anderson weakened a powerful ally.

And no, with the Reapers, the risk is that the sun will never come out after the storm. I do nto share such optimism.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 04:24 .

[jbblue05]

Anderson must die.
Bioware doon't force me to be buddy-buddy with him I will nerd-rage so hard in ME3

Bioware I like Udina. I want to be bros with him not at each others throat all the time.

If you guys really read Retribution you will read how a lot of Alliance officials are pissed off at what Anderson did.
What Anderson did was selfish and supporting him is selfish, because you think your personal hatred of Cerberus represents everybody, when in fact you're selfishly self-centered views and actions are more harmful than good..

I'm more pissed off at what Anderson did to the Alliance and galactic unity than what he did to Cerberus

[Dean_the_Young]

NKKKK wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

armass wrote...

Gotta wonder what goes on in the head of TIM supporters, especially now. How is he a saviour of humanity if he tries to kill Shepard who clearly is our best hope in ME3 in uniting the galaxy? He's undermining everything Shepards doing while the earth burns.

This doesn't look like a lethal weapon to me...

It's lethality depends on the user, no really, Tonfas ****ing hurt .

I agree: Tonfas are ****ing badass.

Everyone looks good with tonfas. Police. Superheros. Superhero policemen. Fascist policemen. Giant robots. Giant robots piloted by fascist policemen with tonfas.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sylvianus wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
The alliance is too stacked, to save itself, the Alliance is doomed if nobody acts.

How is Cerberus a threat to the Alliance in the immediate future? Especially considering how Cerberus is one of the few organizatons that knows about the reapers and are preparing for them.

Cerberus was the one who helped the Normandy project. Cerberus helps fund the alliance with allied and front corporations. There is a lot Cerberus is doing for the Alliance's benefit, whether it knows it or not (we know that many in the higher echelons are Cerberus sympathizers). And if Cerberus is a long term threat to the Alliance, then there is a time and place for it to be delt with. Later.

So yes, the human sovereignty was violated and that his pride too, but that's the price to pay, they will involve only good things.

No, violation of sovereignity in a delicate political context is not a good thing. Nor is it a good thing to weaken the one human group who gives a damn about Reapers.

It is rather a brash short sighted act intoxicated by over-sentimentality.

1 - Cerberus has killed an admiral of the Alliance, politicians, Cerberus has made monstrous experiments on humans, on Alliance 's soldiers on Akuzei, experiments on biotics.

Let me remind you just one thing. That admiral was killed because he uncovered that all the other stuff, including the Akuze, had been carried out on the Alliance's behalf.

Sylvianus wrote...

Cerberus more than once demonstrated that he was uncontrollable and that he acted often according to his interests.  Not that of humanity and especially not the Alliance. And if its interests were threatened, he killed. If the alliance is seen as a threat to its interests, it would down  the Alliance by any means. Alliance is completely infiltrated, if Cerberus wanted to destabilize this organization, he would have completely capabilities. And if its interests were threatened, he killed.And Anderson knows that very well.

Cerberus spy  the Alliance to develop itself, any project has a long-term goal, making it more powerful to threaten the superiority of the first organization representing humanity,  which is regarded aggressively as subject to aliens. How not think they will ever hostile to the Alliance? For me it is clear that Cerberus seeks the destruction of the Alliance. Just look at the thoughts of TIM in mass effect evolution. Eventually this organization, which is recognized as a threat far greater than Terra Firma by the council, will become the greatest threat to the Alliance for its resources, and especially his aggressiveness.

And all of this is utterly irrelevant when the Reapers are on their way, which Anderson claims to believe in, and Cerberus is actively and successfully cooperating with Commander Shepard towards countering the threat.

Funny thing, Anderson has become way more of a Shepard-backstabber than Udina could ever be.

Sylvianus wrote...
　
2 - This is's true. But after the storm comes the sun, once rid of all this threat within the Alliance can proceed without worry of a front that it can anticipate and combat, as she faces other enemies. Then the policy quickly loses its interest when there is a greater threat.

This isn't even wishful thinking, this is inanity.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I agree: Tonfas are ****ing badass.

Everyone looks good with tonfas. Police. Superheros. Superhero policemen. Fascist policemen. Giant robots. Giant robots piloted by fascist policemen with tonfas.

Even Sun Ce

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
The alliance is too stacked, to save itself, the Alliance is doomed if nobody acts.

How is Cerberus a threat to the Alliance in the immediate future? Especially considering how Cerberus is one of the few organizatons that knows about the reapers and are preparing for them.

Cerberus was the one who helped the Normandy project. Cerberus helps fund the alliance with allied and front corporations. There is a lot Cerberus is doing for the Alliance's benefit, whether it knows it or not (we know that many in the higher echelons are Cerberus sympathizers). And if Cerberus is a long term threat to the Alliance, then there is a time and place for it to be delt with. Later.

So yes, the human sovereignty was violated and that his pride too, but that's the price to pay, they will involve only good things.

No, violation of sovereignity in a delicate political context is not a good thing. Nor is it a good thing to weaken the one human group who gives a damn about Reapers.

It is rather a brash short sighted act intoxicated by over-sentimentality.

It's even better when you consider Retribution is just as valid not only in a Paragon Council setting, but even in a Renegade's Human Council setting. Anderson's motivations ascend past time and space, apparently.

In a Renegade Council setting, where Humanity and the Turians are in an open arms race, possibly on the brink of war, and in which galactic stability depends on Humanity's continued grip on galactic governance... Turian task forces making sudden attacks into Alliance space without provocation or forewarning isn't just reckless, it's a war scare.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I agree: Tonfas are ****ing badass.

Everyone looks good with tonfas. Police. Superheros. Superhero policemen. Fascist policemen. Giant robots. Giant robots piloted by fascist policemen with tonfas.

Even Sun Ce

You're wrong, KoP.

Especially Sun Ce.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's even better when you consider Retribution is just as valid not only in a Paragon Council setting, but even in a Renegade's Human Council setting. Anderson's motivations ascend past time and space, apparently.

In a Renegade Council setting, where Humanity and the Turians are in an open arms race, possibly on the brink of war, and in which galactic stability depends on Humanity's continued grip on galactic governance... Turian task forces making sudden attacks into Alliance space without provocation or forewarning isn't just reckless, it's a war scare.

Indeed. Even in a paragon "happy council" (not so happy) setting, such an act is probably going to embolden the Turian hawks (and from the other alien races) and enrage the human ones. The political situation is very fragile.

The Council is stable with the "trinity", with the 3 races that are almost perfectly complementary. But when you have the new comer that is humanity, which does not fit a specific niche and encroaches on the Turian's, at best fragility would be the result. At worse, inevitable confrontation.

So now was really not the time for such recklessness.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 04:36 .

[Sylvianus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
The alliance is too stacked, to save itself, the Alliance is doomed if nobody acts.

How is Cerberus a threat to the Alliance in the immediate future? Especially considering how Cerberus is one of the few organizatons that knows about the reapers and are preparing for them.

Cerberus was the one who helped the Normandy project. Cerberus helps fund the alliance with allied and front corporations. There is a lot Cerberus is doing for the Alliance's benefit, whether it knows it or not (we know that many in the higher echelons are Cerberus sympathizers). And if Cerberus is a long term threat to the Alliance, then there is a time and place for it to be delt with. Later.

So yes, the human sovereignty was violated and that his pride too, but that's the price to pay, they will involve only good things.

No, violation of sovereignity in a delicate political context is not a good thing. Nor is it a good thing to weaken the one human group who gives a damn about Reapers.

It is rather a brash short sighted act intoxicated by over-sentimentality.

1 - Cerberus has killed an admiral of the Alliance, politicians, Cerberus has made monstrous experiments on humans, on Alliance 's soldiers on Akuzei, experiments on biotics.

Let me remind you just one thing. That admiral was killed because he uncovered that all the other stuff, including the Akuze, had been carried out on the Alliance's behalf.

Sylvianus wrote...

Cerberus more than once demonstrated that he was uncontrollable and that he acted often according to his interests.  Not that of humanity and especially not the Alliance. And if its interests were threatened, he killed. If the alliance is seen as a threat to its interests, it would down  the Alliance by any means. Alliance is completely infiltrated, if Cerberus wanted to destabilize this organization, he would have completely capabilities. And if its interests were threatened, he killed.And Anderson knows that very well.

Cerberus spy  the Alliance to develop itself, any project has a long-term goal, making it more powerful to threaten the superiority of the first organization representing humanity,  which is regarded aggressively as subject to aliens. How not think they will ever hostile to the Alliance? For me it is clear that Cerberus seeks the destruction of the Alliance. Just look at the thoughts of TIM in mass effect evolution. Eventually this organization, which is recognized as a threat far greater than Terra Firma by the council, will become the greatest threat to the Alliance for its resources, and especially his aggressiveness.

And all of this is utterly irrelevant when the Reapers are on their way, which Anderson claims to believe in, and Cerberus is actively and successfully cooperating with Commander Shepard towards countering the threat.

Funny thing, Anderson has become way more of a Shepard-backstabber than Udina could ever be.

Sylvianus wrote...
　
2 - This is's true. But after the storm comes the sun, once rid of all this threat within the Alliance can proceed without worry of a front that it can anticipate and combat, as she faces other enemies. Then the policy quickly loses its interest when there is a greater threat.

This isn't even wishful thinking, this is inanity.

1 -This admiral was killed because he knew too much,. Cerberus does not want to be known with his agents in the Alliance. It's enought

2 -The reapers are a distant threat, Cerberus an immediate threat. It has the possibility of a strike one or the other, what he should do?

Anderson thinks like a soldier, not like a politician as Udina.

And clearly he does not consider Cerberus as an ally but a threath, wrongly or rightly. He's not a traitor, you consider it as such, because there was a factual consequence of weakening as a result of the success of this mission. But the gesture is still consistent.

3-  that' your opinion, not mine.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 avril 2011 - 04:44 .