32 réponses à ce sujet

[VanTesla]

In Dragon Age 2 your companions have little to no character development over ten years of chance to influence them.

Example: Fenris in a romance or friendship with a Mage Hawke never lessens his view on Mages, Hawke can't change Merrill's views on blood magic or Demons, Merrill never matures even a bit unless you have her as a rival, Hawke's brother is always a ****** until the final confrontation with Meredith (if a Templar), nothing can change Anders, and Sebastian...

In DAO you could have a major impact on characters like Alistair, Leliana (lesser extent), Shales opinion on fleshy things (wanting to become one again in the end), Morrigans opinion of love, Sten's opinion on Gray Wardens and you, Oghren becoming more responsible (Awakening Felsi and baby), and some minor characters. All in one years time...

Am I the only one that notice this and felt disappointed by the lack of story development?

Modifié par VanTesla, 18 avril 2011 - 08:13 .

[Torax]

If you are a Rival with Fenris he will eventually lessen his opinion on mages if I recall. Most games don't truly have a huge character shift. The characters in DA2 have about as much change as they do in Origins. Basically means they tolerate you more. Wynne just runs out of things to lecture the Warden about. In the end they are their own people as characters. You may influence little things at most. Merrill's friendship has her continuation of the research into the mirror and blood magic. While her rivalry path has her destroy the mirror and moving on with her life. Fenris in a friendship path has no reason to change at all. If you Rivalry with him he will change a bit over time. As for Anders and Sebastian. They are counter points of each other. You shouldn't be surprised that neither of them truly change.

[Deanooo]

Romancing isabella changed her opinions on love i would say

[Foolsfolly]

Shall I bring out the 'It was rushed' card, sir?

I think there was some character development. Not every character had it but most of the companions did. Merrill did, especially if you Rival her. Sebastian did.

[hoorayforicecream]

Isabela changes a good amount over the course of the game. While her flirty, joking, fun-loving approach doesn't change THAT much, her main attitude does. She's got three possible paths she can take:

- Inherently selfish (i.e. how you find her), where she takes the relic and runs, never to return.
- Friendship path, where she decides to overcome her selfishness out of love/respect for Hawke and help for Hawke's sake.
- Rivalry path, where she is inspired by love/respect for Hawke to actually do the right thing.

There's plenty of examples of events of the game changing Aveline (she's very different depending on friend or rival, and even moreso if she doesn't marry Donnic) too. I'd say that the character development is definitely there, but you just need to look harder for it.

[Wulfram]

Try sarcastic options on Act 1 and Act 3 Merrill. She reacts quite differently.
Isabela and Aveline become friends
Anders becomes considerably more crazy

Varric is always Varric, admittedly. But who would want him to be anyone else?

[VanTesla]

Torax wrote...

If you are a Rival with Fenris he will eventually lessen his opinion on mages if I recall. Most games don't truly have a huge character shift. The characters in DA2 have about as much change as they do in Origins. Basically means they tolerate you more. Wynne just runs out of things to lecture the Warden about. In the end they are their own people as characters. You may influence little things at most. Merrill's friendship has her continuation of the research into the mirror and blood magic. While her rivalry path has her destroy the mirror and moving on with her life. Fenris in a friendship path has no reason to change at all. If you Rivalry with him he will change a bit over time. As for Anders and Sebastian. They are counter points of each other. You shouldn't be surprised that neither of them truly change.

But the problem is that this is ten years of time to have some bigger change in character development than 1 year in DAO. I don't count Wynne since she is old and understandable, but since the other characters are in their 20s to mid 30s they are still growing in how their perspectives can change. Problem also is with the Rivalry system, having you meta game instead of roleplay if you want to change their views is not the best way to implement.

[Auridesion]

Well, I don't think it's a LACK of character development, I think it's just that the circumstances are totally different -- especially with the integration of the "rivalry" option in DA2. In Origins, the characters either like you or they don't. If you get them to like you enough, you can have a serious impact on them. If you don't bother, you never get to see any growth from those characters. But as for the examples you mentioned: Alistair and Leliana are really the only two "changeable" characters in the game -- which is based on their experiences on their personal quests. But nothing really CHANGES in the other characters. If you manage to get them to like you, they feel a strong bond of loyalty to you, but that's about it. It's relatively linear regarding most of the companions -- you either take the time to open them up and see what's beyond the superficial surface, or you don't bother.

DA2 has the noble intent of allowing us to explore a different kind of strong bond with the "rivalry" option. However, except for a few lines of dialogue being switched around, it's always pretty much the same relationship. I feel like the characters are pretty fully developed, but what I feel is missing is a lack of depth in the relationships we have with them over such a long time span.

[hoorayforicecream]

VanTesla wrote...

But the problem is that this is ten years of time to have some bigger change in character development than 1 year in DAO. I don't count Wynne since she is old and understandable, but since the other characters are in their 20s to mid 30s they are still growing in how their perspectives can change. Problem also is with the Rivalry system, having you meta game instead of roleplay if you want to change their views is not the best way to implement.

I found the rivalry system less immersion-breaking than the metagamey "I hate you!" > *Shovel down gifts* > "We're best friends now!" approach of DA:O. And if you look carefully, their perspectives *do* change. That's really what character development is.

[VanTesla]

Wulfram wrote...

Try sarcastic options on Act 1 and Act 3 Merrill. She reacts quite differently.
Isabela and Aveline become friends
Anders becomes considerably more crazy

Varric is always Varric, admittedly. But who would want him to be anyone else?

Varric is good the way he is because he has a open view on things and does not a have a single view on how things should be. He is open to suggestion and does develop in some ways by taking up Bartrands job as head.

[Foolsfolly]

Companion banter does have growth as well. Characters become friends, drift apart, or remain hostile.

Varric and Anders drift apart. Isabela and Aveline become friends. Merrill and Isabela become friends. Stuff like that.

[Foolsfolly]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

VanTesla wrote...

But the problem is that this is ten years of time to have some bigger change in character development than 1 year in DAO. I don't count Wynne since she is old and understandable, but since the other characters are in their 20s to mid 30s they are still growing in how their perspectives can change. Problem also is with the Rivalry system, having you meta game instead of roleplay if you want to change their views is not the best way to implement.

I found the rivalry system less immersion-breaking than the metagamey "I hate you!" > *Shovel down gifts* > "We're best friends now!" approach of DA:O. And if you look carefully, their perspectives *do* change. That's really what character development is.

Exactly. Friendship/Rivalry is one of the best things about the game. The characters have different arcs depending on their opinion on Hawke. There's no one path that's better (although I like Rivalry Merrill storyline better). It's cool and it adds replayablity to a game where largely your influence has no affect.

Here it does. Characters change depending on you act. And it's not nearly as metagaming as playing the first game and bending over backwards to get everyone to like you.

[caridounette]

the simple fact there are friendship and rivalery paths is character development in itself, for Hawke and for the companions. Its your choice to bring certain character to events you know will make them tick and actively develop one path or the other.

There isnt too many opportunities to chat with the character but they do evolve on certain points and remain the same on others (would be crazy to change them all around).

[Danjaru]

Actually you do get to influence them to a degree.

But for some reason all the influence and interesting dialogue with your companions comes with the Rival maxed and not friendship.

Merrill will bust her mirror and give up on that if you have her at full rival. Aveline can lash out at you and you see a different side of her if she's rival. You see Anders much more in depth as a rival. Isabela will do a Morrigan (change her views on love) if romanced. But I haven't tried the rest as Rival, with friendship they don't really change.

It's not as visible as Origins nor to the same extent. But it's there to some degree. I think it's more about not allowing us to have long conversations with our companions instead of poor character development.

Modifié par Danjaru, 18 avril 2011 - 10:37 .

[Deified Data]

OP: I disagree.

[Aluvious]

Danjaru wrote...

Actually you do get to influence them to a degree.

But for some reason all the influence and interesting dialogue with your companions comes with the Rival maxed and not friendship.

Merrill will bust her mirror and give up on that if you have her at full rival. Aveline can lash out at you and you see a different side of her if she's rival. You see Anders much more in depth as a rival. Isabela will do a Morrigan (change her views on love) if romanced. But I haven't tried the rest as Rival, with friendship they don't really change.

It's not as visible as Origins nor to the same extent. But it's there to some degree. I think it's more about not allowing us to have long conversations with our companions instead of poor character development.

Doesn't Aveline beat the crap out of Hawke in one conversation if you're still  her rival in Act 3? That was pretty unexpected.

[Danjaru]

Aluvious wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

Actually you do get to influence them to a degree.

But for some reason all the influence and interesting dialogue with your companions comes with the Rival maxed and not friendship.

Merrill will bust her mirror and give up on that if you have her at full rival. Aveline can lash out at you and you see a different side of her if she's rival. You see Anders much more in depth as a rival. Isabela will do a Morrigan (change her views on love) if romanced. But I haven't tried the rest as Rival, with friendship they don't really change.

It's not as visible as Origins nor to the same extent. But it's there to some degree. I think it's more about not allowing us to have long conversations with our companions instead of poor character development.

Doesn't Aveline beat the crap out of Hawke in one conversation if you're still  her rival in Act 3? That was pretty unexpected.

Yes.. Yes she does.. And it's kind of awesome.

[Shamajotsi]

Actually Sebastian changes quite a lot:
-We don't see him quite a lot during Act I, but then he is thinking only of revenge for his family.
-In Act II he is repentant and at the same time torn between his duty to the Chantry and his right to the throne of Starkhaven.
-In Act III he could finally decide on which path he will take. If you are at 100 friendship with him, he will be content with devoting himself to spreading the Chant, whereas if you have 100 rivalry with him, he will be determined to become a Prince (or so I've read).
-If you spare Anders' life, he will be very determined to reclaim his right over Starkhaven and to level Kirkwall with the ground, which could be quite the 180 degree turn if you were a friend with him.

[Ollymandias]

VanTesla wrote...

Hawke's brother is always a ****** until the final confrontation with Meredith (if a Templar), nothing can change Anders, and Sebastian...

Actually, I think Anders changes immensely over his time in Kirkwall.  He changes a lot... but sadly nothing Hawke does can alter the path he is on.

As someone else stated, Isabela does change too.

Fenris doesn't change over the game, but that's because he is intentionally clinging on to his past and his 'angst' that he can't let himself let go of until Danarius is dead.

Rather than change within the characters, I would have liked to see the companions have a little more depth.  In DAO the Warden's friends were pretty much none of them what they seemed on the surface.  Leliana's Chantry Sister mask hid a bard from Val Royeaux, although Morrigan seemed to have been neatly programmed by Flemeth she started showing her own desires and even questioning her mother's wisdom (it's easy to make her want to arrange a hit on her mum, takes more work to get Morrigan to say Flemeth wasn't right 100% of the time) and showing her hidden vulnerability, Zevran pretends he is shallow and sex-obsessed bimbo but underneath it he's loyal and quite perceptive, Sten seems boring as drying paint but if you take him on the walking tour of Ferelden he has a lot to say etc.

The DA2 characters seemed for the most part to be exactly what they say on the tin.  "I am a jolly pirate with a heart of gold, meet the brooding ex-slave over here and the foolhardy but cutesy Blood Mage..."

[txgoldrush]

Ollymandias wrote...

VanTesla wrote...

Hawke's brother is always a ****** until the final confrontation with Meredith (if a Templar), nothing can change Anders, and Sebastian...

Actually, I think Anders changes immensely over his time in Kirkwall.  He changes a lot... but sadly nothing Hawke does can alter the path he is on.

As someone else stated, Isabela does change too.

Fenris doesn't change over the game, but that's because he is intentionally clinging on to his past and his 'angst' that he can't let himself let go of until Danarius is dead.

Rather than change within the characters, I would have liked to see the companions have a little more depth.  In DAO the Warden's friends were pretty much none of them what they seemed on the surface.  Leliana's Chantry Sister mask hid a bard from Val Royeaux, although Morrigan seemed to have been neatly programmed by Flemeth she started showing her own desires and even questioning her mother's wisdom (it's easy to make her want to arrange a hit on her mum, takes more work to get Morrigan to say Flemeth wasn't right 100% of the time) and showing her hidden vulnerability, Zevran pretends he is shallow and sex-obsessed bimbo but underneath it he's loyal and quite perceptive, Sten seems boring as drying paint but if you take him on the walking tour of Ferelden he has a lot to say etc.

The DA2 characters seemed for the most part to be exactly what they say on the tin.  "I am a jolly pirate with a heart of gold, meet the brooding ex-slave over here and the foolhardy but cutesy Blood Mage..."

The problem with DAO is that its character depth was never used in the story, it was almost all window dressing and the companion quests were very small as well. It was AWESOME however to have Leliana's backstory playable. However, her story did not matter in DAO in the grand scheme of things.

DAO is much worse than other Bioware games in this capacity. Jade Empire had the same style of establishing depth, however, the characters played far bigger roles in the narrative. DAO was a step back even from that with only Morrigan and Allistair playing big roles. Everyone else was just "there".

DAII's characters actually have equal depth (remember Anders, Merril, and Isabela are returning and already have depth) but their depth is USED in the plot. Actually the depth of DAII's characters come from quests, SHOWING not TELLLING and Bioware needs to do this far more often.

I found the characters in DAO highly two dimensional outside of Leliana, Wynne, and Shale. They only show one personality and one or two emotions...Morrigan especially. The cast of DAII is far more three dimensional, and I think it rivals, even surpasses Obsidian's casts in this department (as does the Mass Effect series). Another huge advantage they have over DAO is that they all have multiple paths of development outside Varric. In DAO, only Allister and Leliana had multiple character development paths (and maybe a romanced Morrigan), everyone else is just static. And it seems Leliana doesn't matter, she stays religious regardless.

The DAII characters are just much better overall.

[brightblueink]

I think the main issue people have with the characters in DA2 is that the majority of the growth and development you see happens if you take the characters with you. The less often you have characters in your party, the less you get to learn about them and the less you get to see them grow. In DA:O you can throw gifts at characters and talk to them endlessly at the camp to learn their backstories and build relationships with them. DA2 is much more subtle and requires you to really spend time with the characters to see them grow, but they definitely do. Even Fenris grows and learns to deal with his issues better overtime.

You have to spend more time with the characters to get to know them, but I find that much more realistic and rewarding overall.

[doloreg]

What are you talking about OP, DA2 had charcter development, and they have an ongoing story, unlike the characters of DA:O.

Even if you don't rival her, Merrill becomes obsessed with the mirror, making her a shut in wthdrawn person, rather than the frollicing little elf. Not to mention, that her story is tragic.

Anders was a light haerted apostate with a harsh view on templars, but he enjoyed good humor, and was more or less content. Later he becomes depressed and regretful over the fact that he's Justices host, and his hatred becomes serious business. He'll no longer joke around with Varric.

Fenris can become a free man, and is able to realise that revenge was not his key to freedom, but his hatred cools down, and he does his best to start anew.
He can become less harsh when it comes to mages as well.
And of course his romance story has a lot of cd.

The rigid Aveline can show more than you'd think, and even Isabela opens up a little bit (not in that way) and shows that she's not that selfish and shallow.

Carver can become your friend by the end, while Bethany can grow cold and emotionally dead.

Even the non companions go through this, the Arishok for example goes through a lot of stress and does not handle it well. Meredith becomes more and more opressive, while Orsino becomes more and more desperate, and they are all portrayed well in the game.

[Persephone]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

VanTesla wrote...

But the problem is that this is ten years of time to have some bigger change in character development than 1 year in DAO. I don't count Wynne since she is old and understandable, but since the other characters are in their 20s to mid 30s they are still growing in how their perspectives can change. Problem also is with the Rivalry system, having you meta game instead of roleplay if you want to change their views is not the best way to implement.

I found the rivalry system less immersion-breaking than the metagamey "I hate you!" > *Shovel down gifts* > "We're best friends now!" approach of DA:O. And if you look carefully, their perspectives *do* change. That's really what character development is.

This is made of WIN. As is your signature!

[Boiny Bunny]

Persephone wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

VanTesla wrote...

But the problem is that this is ten years of time to have some bigger change in character development than 1 year in DAO. I don't count Wynne since she is old and understandable, but since the other characters are in their 20s to mid 30s they are still growing in how their perspectives can change. Problem also is with the Rivalry system, having you meta game instead of roleplay if you want to change their views is not the best way to implement.

I found the rivalry system less immersion-breaking than the metagamey "I hate you!" > *Shovel down gifts* > "We're best friends now!" approach of DA:O. And if you look carefully, their perspectives *do* change. That's really what character development is.

This is made of WIN. As is your signature!

Hehe, I agree with that.  The gifts in DA2 were much better done (i.e. only unique gifts were in the game).

[-Skorpious-]

I disagree. As much as I rip on DA2, Hawke's companions are one of the few reasons I genuinely like the game.

Now Hawke on the other-hand...