603 réponses à ce sujet

[goofyomnivore]

How much would it hurt this build to use the blood magic points on something like Haste or Death Hex? I'm okay with chugging lyrium potions if that is the major con of not taking blood magic. Plus IIRC Death Syphon got a slight buff, so it may be decent at curbing the loss of blood magic's efficiency.

[Mr_Raider]

I wouldn't waste points on Death Hex. The damage buff isn't worth it. Haste on the other hand is godly. Two haste's in a party is monstrous. The only question is, should both haste's be run concurrently or sequentially.

[ISI-Society]

Mr_Raider wrote...

I wouldn't waste points on Death Hex. The damage buff isn't worth it. Haste on the other hand is godly. Two haste's in a party is monstrous. The only question is, should both haste's be run concurrently or sequentially.

I concur ... denying an enemy healing and perhaps causing some modest ongoing damage is a distant second choice behind simply killing him outright by the most expeditious and effective means handy.  For the same precious slot, it's far better to upgrade one of your meat and potatoes elemental spells than hex of torment.

I recent finished a runthrough as a mage, using the Elemental & Forcemage parts of AreleX's fine build, and like some others have done before me, I opted to skip the bloodmage option at level 14, for roleplaying reasons.

In my case, I used the extra slots to finish maxing out the Elemental and Forcemage Trees, and then I added Haste and Heal.  Also, rather than simply squandering the specialization point, I opted to activate the Spirit Healer specialization, even though I always made it a point to favor DPS over healing wherever and whenever it was most effective to do so (i.e., only heal when lulls & mana levels make it sensible).

In general, any spells/slots that increase your attack rate (haste), and disrupt or reduce the attack rates of your opponents (gravitic ring) are highly desirable talents to add to your arsenal.  The existing build already had plenty of AoE and DD spells, so when I did my alternative finish sans bloodmage, I opted for spells that boosted attack rate imbalances, and/or upgrades to spells I already had.  It worked out fine.

I found it somewhat ironic and amusing that when I was done, both the templars and the city chose my hawke ... a known apostate, to be vicount.

Modifié par ISI-Society, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:45 .

[AreleX]

if you want to, you can take the creation tree up to great haste after you get upgraded pull of the abyss (you CAN skip it altogether, as the number of times where its use is warranted are rather small, but i love it for those times you can set up utterly disgusting slave bomb combos) instead of what i have listed after it. I chose not to due to an already limited number of map slots on console, but if you really want to/are a pc player who won't have that problem, go ahead and take haste.

death hex is a complete and utter waste due to slashed lieutenant/assassin/boss health. brand, upgraded heroic aura, and hex of torment will take care of just about anything at the same rate.

[ISI-Society]

Isn't upgraded heroic aura (along with Sunder) bugged in 1.02 ?

[AreleX]

the party-wide buffs are more than worth the occasional inconvenience of having to make a new save and loading it.

[twisted_tseri]

I started on Hard and tried taking advantage of the brittle cross-class combo. But had to change difficulty level on the Rock Wraith. Then I knew I needed help. This guide has helped me deal with Act 2 on Hard difficulty level! Thanks to the guide creator!

I'm level 19 but I feel I still lack something. I am leaning to choose between Fenris or Aveline. Fenris is able to stagger enemies thus adding 2 cross-class combo... But aggro is less so Merril becomes the target. Any advice? Thanks in advance

[twisted_tseri]

^^ by the way, Aveline for me is a pure Tank.

[AreleX]

my advice is follow my guide for each char and things will be dying so fast that everything else doesn't matter.

fenris is awful post-patch, aveline is only slightly better, you'll realize both are garbage when you use the all ranged party and see that you don't need a tank.

[ISI-Society]

twisted_tseri wrote...

I'm level 19 but I feel I still lack something. I am leaning to choose between Fenris or Aveline. Fenris is able to stagger enemies thus adding 2 cross-class combo... But aggro is less so Merril becomes the target. Any advice? Thanks in advance

In AreleX's build, stagger exploits take a backseat to exploiting disorients and brittles, and as long as you're johnnie on the spot with the right spells, the presence of a tank is unnecessary.  In fact, your mabari is a decent tank, and doesnt even use up a character slot in your party.  Also, if you think about it, the PoTA+GR combo partially fills the same role as a tank in the flow of combat as well. You can pretty much open 80% of most engagements with that combo, then pop off an AoE DD spell and wipe out most of the first wave of enemies with it.

Modifié par ISI-Society, 11 juillet 2011 - 02:12 .

[twisted_tseri]

Hey, thanks guys!

@Arelex yeah, after act 2, I tried to follow your guide with each player without buying Maker's sigh... But will probably do now. I need my Mage to have that Hemorrhage ASAP! I also have a question with Merril's tactics, when Anders and Varric are being targeted, jump to 17. But 17 is healing self? How come?

Your practically correct with PoTA and GR. I'll probably change Anders to be offensive. Right now he's a healer for me and dies quickly when 2-3 assassins are present...

[AreleX]

are you playing with the patch? if so, you are following the wrong guide. check the bottom of the op.

[twisted_tseri]

Oh, I'm not sure. I'm playing on the PS3. Probably 1.02. In the PS3, when you are connected to PSN, it automatically updates right? What build should I look at? Thank you.

[twisted_tseri]

@Arelex playing with patch 1.02. I saw the tactics already. You are correct, I was looking at the wrong tactics. Lol! Thank thanks!

[ISI-Society]

twisted_tseri wrote ...

I'll probably change Anders to be offensive. Right now he's a healer for me and dies quickly when 2-3 assassins are present...

Healing is a delaying tactic employed by gamers with an underdeveloped desire to win at all costs. In real life, healing is vital, but in games like DA2 it detracts from exploiting short-lived damage multipliers. Remember the mantra - when it comes to killing in DA2, go big or go home ... kill as many as possible as fast as possible, and only heal if there's a lull in disorients needing prompt exploitation.

As for stealthed assassins ... it is hawke's responsibility to locate and spank them in timely fashion, before they can annoy anyone with their pig stickers. PotA is great for pulling them out of stealth, and if the spells isn't on cooldown, and if there are assassins about, there is ZERO reason to refrain from using it preemptively to locate those backstabbers. Not sure where to cast it ? Chances are high that knife boy is heading straight for the mage closest to his spawn-in point, so just cast it close to his most likely target ... and then winter's grasp the MOFO as soon as he pops in skidding along the ground crying for mama.

Modifié par ISI-Society, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:00 .

[frustratemyself]

Being careful of course not to skittle your companions in the process.

[Relix28]

ISI-Society wrote...

twisted_tseri wrote ...

I'll probably change Anders to be offensive. Right now he's a healer for me and dies quickly when 2-3 assassins are present...

Healing is a delaying tactic employed by gamers with an underdeveloped desire to win at all costs. In real life, healing is vital, but in games like DA2 it detracts from exploiting short-lived damage multipliers. Remember the mantra - when it comes to killing in DA2, go big or go home ... kill as many as possible as fast as possible, and only heal if there's a lull in disorients needing prompt exploitation.

As for stealthed assassins ... it is hawke's responsibility to locate and spank them in timely fashion, before they can annoy anyone with their pig stickers. PotA is great for pulling them out of stealth, and if the spells isn't on cooldown, and if there are assassins about, there is ZERO reason to refrain from using it preemptively to locate those backstabbers. Not sure where to cast it ? Chances are high that knife boy is heading straight for the mage closest to his spawn-in point, so just cast it close to his most likely target ... and then winter's grasp the MOFO as soon as he pops in skidding along the ground crying for mama.

When an assassin goes stealth, you have to wait for a second or two, so that his invincibility runs out. After that, your best chance is to cast PoTA somewhere near thier last known location. If PoTA is on cooldown, you can always try to break thier stealth with Cone of Cold. And I think Fist of The Maker works as well. And, if for some reason you have all these spels unavailble, you can always switch to Anders or Merrill and use thier Cone of Cold, or summon your dog. The dog is not a guaranteed stealth breaker, but usually they tend to backstab your dog before anyone else. I mostly use the dog as bait, when I'm playing as a Warrior or Rogue, and most of the time, he baits them out (and eats the backstab) like a champ.

[ISI-Society]

Fenris is able to stagger enemies thus adding 2 cross-class combo... But aggro is less

If we havent suceeded in convincing you to tank with Dog instead, there are a few pointers to try that help narrow the gaps between fenris and avaline:

* Avaline: You can boost her staggers by upgrading her Shield Bash with Pummel ... add it, and USE it. it's slightly counter intuitive that she's most effective if she simply tries to stagger her foes than kill them outright, but trust me, it works ... she staggers em, and the mages kill em.  It's like peanut butter and jelly.  I also like to add (and use) the Command upgrade to Control to boost her crit chance, along with dumping a few extra points into Dex (plus adding some crit-friendly bling). Do that, and she'll soon be generating a decent rate of exploitable staggers for the mage squad to zap ... or clouds of pink mist that have already been dealt with.

* Fenris: He's good at generating staggers, but he starts out with a wimpy stamina, which takes time to correct. He makes a decent second tank in a vangard-beserker centric party, but in a Mage-centric party he's a bit of a third wheel. You can improve his aggro by using taunt and having varric use goad/corral, and in act 3 he can weild The Celebrant sword (although the new Empress Point sword is a more attractive choice) ... but IMO, I usually prefer to have a 2nd or 3rd person in the party who can unload some extra fully upgraded elemental or spirit tree spells. Heck, if the game let me have varric use corral on Dog, Fenris would be out of a job entirely.

Bottom line: given a choice between avaline and fenris, I'll generally take avaline .... but better still is learning to use Dog effectively, with 3 mages and Varric. It takes practice and finesse, but done properly it's hard to beat.

Modifié par ISI-Society, 11 juillet 2011 - 02:16 .

[AreleX]

dog protip: if you spawn him near a stealthed assassin, he is almost guaranteed to backstab it instead of you/a companion.

i have had it work 100% of the time, but say 'almost guaranteed' because i don't want someone crying at me on the off chance that it doesn't work for them. the same can be done with decoy if you're playing a shadow rogue

[ISI-Society]

Footnote to the above: the decision to choose dog over avaline or fenris requires a bit of a paradigm shift in most people's concept of the role of a tank in this particular build. In the Mach-5 massacre build, the central tank's role is to use aggro to draw people in and kill kill kill KILL (with the rest of the team helping with the killing). However, in the elemental forcemage build, the role of a tank (usually dog) is somewhat different ... here, the goal of the tank is not to kill enemies outright, but simply to draw aggo and lockdown enemy charges, and thereby create conveniently exploitable clusters for your mages and archer to exterminate. In other words, the bulk of the killing is done by the rest of the team, and the tank does relatively little killing at all.

Anyone who's ever gone hunting with a bird dog in real life will immediately recognize a similarity in tactics here.  In real life, a bird dog flushes out birds for you to get a clear shot at.  The role of Dog in this build is similar ... Dog is preprogrammed by the game to charge and engage the nearest knot of enemies, thereby drawing aggro, and creating a convenient cluster for you to exploit.  It's almost the same role as a bird dog, minus the flushing out from the shrubs.

4 hunters + 1 bird dog = {mage Hawke, Merrill, Anders, Varric/Seb} + plus dog. 

Modifié par ISI-Society, 11 juillet 2011 - 02:43 .

[twisted_tseri]

oh I am completely sold with not using a tank (avaline or fenris). All I need to do is change Anders to be more offensive than a support Healer. I'm not just sure though if I have enough skills already to complete Spirit tree, Add Vengance and Creation tree (for haste) as well. But surely, I will go with Mage Hawke, Merrill, Anders and Varric!

Thank you to all of you!!! (will now practice the new team and dog bait!)

[Rheyn]

Hey AreleX! (I know I've already replied on your DW Rogue guide, it's just I'm full of questions:innocent:).
As I told you on that thread I was interested in a party setup which contained Isabella. I'm thinking about an Isabella/BM-Hawke/Merrill/Anders setup.It wouldn't have that fancy Brittle CCC but Isabella could act as a kind of elite-tank. On the other hand I could use a 2 rogue (Isabella/Varric) 2 mages (Hawke and Anders) party so I could do those CCC and yet include her in my party. What do you think? Also I want to know if Crushing Prison could fit in this spec some way (man, I really like that spell) like in a Spirit/Arcane/F-BM.
Sorry for my mistakes, it was hard for me to make this all understandable since english is not my native language.

Modifié par Rheyn, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:03 .

[Mr_Raider]

frustratemyself wrote...

Being careful of course not to skittle your companions in the process.

Collateral damage. Taking out a high value target like a rogue is worth an occasional accident.

[Relix28]

AreleX wrote...

dog protip: if you spawn him near a stealthed assassin, he is almost guaranteed to backstab it instead of you/a companion.

i have had it work 100% of the time, but say 'almost guaranteed' because i don't want someone crying at me on the off chance that it doesn't work for them. the same can be done with decoy if you're playing a shadow rogue

Thnx for the tip. It's a good one. I wasn't really sure why sometimes the assassins would still seek out my companions instead of the dog. I did notice, however that the dog draws them out of stealth rather quickly when he does.

[ISI-Society]

Relix28 wrote...

AreleX wrote...

dog protip: if you spawn him near a stealthed assassin, he is almost guaranteed to backstab it instead of you/a companion.

i have had it work 100% of the time, but say 'almost guaranteed' because i don't want someone crying at me on the off chance that it doesn't work for them. the same can be done with decoy if you're playing a shadow rogue

Thnx for the tip. It's a good one. I wasn't really sure why sometimes the assassins would still seek out my companions instead of the dog. I did notice, however that the dog draws them out of stealth rather quickly when he does.

This is just a guess (bear with me for a second), but I suspect the game assigns all party members a default statis starting aggro (threat) value at the start of each fight, based on their class, and then that value gets modified up or down dynamically during a battle depending on active/passive talents in effect (such as subtlety, taunt, armistice, goad/corral, evade, etc), and the amount of damage you're dishing out (i.e., high damage raises your threat level). 

That said, I'm guessing that the developers may have given Dog a disproportionately higher threat level than the damage he actually does in order to help improve his tactical value ... otherwise he'd just be ineffective battlefield clutter than nobody would bother with.  They probably opted for high threat value over high DPS because the latter could have unbalanced the game a bit more than they wanted, whereas only experienced players would be able to fully exploit the former, and thus earn it a recurring insiders tactic status.

I think that makes sense ... it's probably how I'd have implemented it, if I was on the design team.

Modifié par ISI-Society, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:32 .