945 réponses à ce sujet

[Benchmark]

ajm317 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The annulment of the Kirkwall Circle was dubious perhaps. But it wasn't unjustified. A lot of people disaggrees with the reasons though.

I think it was clearly unjustified based on the information Meredith had at the time.  Meredith didn't know that Orsino was a blood mage.  In fact, the RoA had nothing to do with the circle at all.  She did it to provide "justice" to the mob for the apostate mage Anders.  The prescence of blood mages wasn't even used as a pretext.  It was clearly "Anders killed the Grand Cleric so now I'm going to kill every mage in Kirkwall."  I don't think that's in the Chantries hand book and if it is, they need to burn that book.

One thing about this. Meredith is having an argument about searching the tower for blood mages when you start the final quest. Orsino is resisting her. Meredith obviously has some suspicions that there are blood mages hiding in the tower.

When you ask Orsino about it he deflects your question and refuses to answer it. He just says Meredith always thinks there are blood mages. Not an answer, very telling since when you search his office you find his blood magic gear.

I was really bothered when Meredith jumped straight to "Annul Annul Annul!!!" as soon as the Grand Cleric went ashes. I personally would have raided the tower before the mages new what was coming, killed any demonic resistance, isolated any surrenders, and searched for evidence of complicity in the bombing or blood magic in general.

The first time through I joined the mages hoping to just shut her up and make her see reason.

Luckily if you join the Templars you can force Meredith to do it the way I just laid out. With Cullen's assistance. So that's what I did the second time.

You don't have to, you can be a "seed of evil" Hawke. You can kill all the surrenderees and offer your sister on a silver platter. But, you don't have to if you want a middle ground. The mage path didn't offer me a middle ground, so it left me feeling less satisfied.

[ajm317]

Benchmark wrote...

One thing about this. Meredith is having an argument about searching the tower for blood mages when you start the final quest. Orsino is resisting her. Meredith obviously has some suspicions that there are blood mages hiding in the tower.

When you ask Orsino about it he deflects your question and refuses to answer it. He just says Meredith always thinks there are blood mages. Not an answer, very telling since when you search his office you find his blood magic gear.

Sure, Meredith did think there were blood mages there, and there WERE blood mages there.  There was even some extremely flimsy corroborating evidence, but that's not why she did it.  She was pretty clear on her reasoning.  "The people will demand justice and I will give it to them."  I don't think anyone thinks a RoA is justifiable on those grounds, even xenophobic chantry higher ups.

[Benchmark]

ajm317 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

One thing about this. Meredith is having an argument about searching the tower for blood mages when you start the final quest. Orsino is resisting her. Meredith obviously has some suspicions that there are blood mages hiding in the tower.

When you ask Orsino about it he deflects your question and refuses to answer it. He just says Meredith always thinks there are blood mages. Not an answer, very telling since when you search his office you find his blood magic gear.

Sure, Meredith did think there were blood mages there, and there WERE blood mages there.  There was even some extremely flimsy corroborating evidence, but that's not why she did it.  She was pretty clear on her reasoning.  "The people will demand justice and I will give it to them."  I don't think anyone thinks a RoA is justifiable on those grounds, even xenophobic chantry higher ups.

I don't even think that was her reason. I think she was crazy and truly thinks mages will all become abominations and kill her family. (Isn't that what happened to her?) Her grip on reality has been strained by her new tableware, and she is just plain ready to kill.

That's not why Hawke would join her though. He/she would probably have real concerns about the health of that circle, backed up by experience. He/she may not agree with a blood bath, but he/she would definitely want to get in there and look things over. Probably do some serious housecleaning.

As I said, once inside he/she would make a judgement call on whether to support the Knight Commander. The game gives you a rare opportunity to make a choice rather than be shuttled down one of two horrible paths. Spare mages/kill mages, spare Bethany/kill Bethany, while still securing the circle.

[Wulfram]

Benchmark wrote...

I agree. That is why there are so many checks to the RoA system. Meredith got a free way around those checks when she became the only authority in Kirkwall. Emergency powers etc.

I doubt many other Circles would have similarly ridiculous chains of events. Or maybe they would, just depends on who gets around to writing about it I guess.

What checks are there, apart from the need for the Grand Cleric's approval?  Which doesn't really seem like much of one, given the general Andrastean view of mages.

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

That's not why Hawke would join her though. He/she would probably have real concerns about the health of that circle, backed up by experience. He/she may not agree with a blood bath, but he/she would definitely want to get in there and look things over. Probably do some serious housecleaning.

Backed up by what experience? Hawke's experiences are with mages who are outside of the Gallows, not with the mages currently locked up in the Gallows.

Benchmark wrote...

As I said, once inside he/she would make a judgement call on whether to support the Knight Commander. The game gives you a rare opportunity to make a choice rather than be shuttled down one of two horrible paths. Spare mages/kill mages, spare Bethany/kill Bethany, while still securing the circle.

The problem is Hawke has limited knowledge about the mages in the Gallows, so no accurate assessment can be made about them. All we know is that Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment and addressed Anders' attack as the reason she called for the death of all mages in the Circle of Magi.

[ajm317]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

That's not why Hawke would join her though. He/she would probably have real concerns about the health of that circle, backed up by experience. He/she may not agree with a blood bath, but he/she would definitely want to get in there and look things over. Probably do some serious housecleaning.

Backed up by what experience? Hawke's experiences are with mages who are outside of the Gallows, not with the mages currently locked up in the Gallows.

Benchmark wrote...

As I said, once inside he/she would make a judgement call on whether to support the Knight Commander. The game gives you a rare opportunity to make a choice rather than be shuttled down one of two horrible paths. Spare mages/kill mages, spare Bethany/kill Bethany, while still securing the circle.

The problem is Hawke has limited knowledge about the mages in the Gallows, so no accurate assessment can be made about them. All we know is that Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment and addressed Anders' attack as the reason she called for the death of all mages in the Circle of Magi.

The mages from the quest On the Loose were all recently escaped circle mages.

I'm pretty sure all the mages from the quest Best Served Cold were circle mages (although Grace had only recently been captured).

[LobselVith8]

ajm317 wrote...

The mages from the quest On the Loose were all recently escaped circle mages.

I'm pretty sure all the mages from the quest Best Served Cold were circle mages (although Grace had only recently been captured).

The two mages we speak to in "Best Served Cold" are from the Starkhaven Circle (Grace and Alain), we have no idea what the other mages who are cowering are like, and besides the socially inept virgin we hunt down for the Knight-Commander, one mage was insane while another was an abomination in On the Loose. We hardly ever meet mages living in the Gallows (with Bethany and Orsino as the prime exceptions), and we have no idea what the many mages and apprentices are like. We can't praise or condemn the Circle when we're denied an opportunity to make our own assessment about them.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 avril 2011 - 08:21 .

[Wulfram]

Of course, Best Served Cold gives as good justification for "annulling" the Templars as it does the mages

[ajm317]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

The mages from the quest On the Loose were all recently escaped circle mages.

I'm pretty sure all the mages from the quest Best Served Cold were circle mages (although Grace had only recently been captured).

The two mages we speak to in "Best Served Cold" are from the Starkhaven Circle (Grace and Alain), we have no idea what the other mages who are cowering are like, and besides the socially inept virgin we hunt down for the Knight-Commander, one mage was insane while another was an abomination in On the Loose. We hardly ever meet mages living in the Gallows (with Bethany and Orsino as the prime exceptions), and we have no idea what the many mages and apprentices are like. We can't praise or condemn the Circle when we're denied an opportunity to make our own assessment about them.

1.  Those might be the only two mages that we speak to in "Best Served Cold" but I remember fighting quite a few.  My memory could be hazy though I guess.
2.  They're from the Starkhaven Circle originally, but they're in the Kirkwall circle now so I'm not sure how that matters.  They're not the only mages in Kirkwall who came from Starkhaven at any rate.
3.  It's true that one mage in On the Loose was crazy and one was an abomination, but both were in the circle up until very recently.  It is reasonable to suggest that at the very least the crazy one was still crazy when he was there, and the abomination was likely an abomination as well.

Benchmark isn't arguing that Hawke has enough information at that point to support the RoA, if I read him correctly.  He is basically arguing for a search warrant.  Given what we saw in those two quests it is not unreasonable to suggest we might only be seeing the tip of the iceberg (in fact we were) and having a look around.

[Dave of Canada]

Wulfram wrote...

Of course, Best Served Cold gives as good justification for "annulling" the Templars as it does the mages

Umm... not really? Last I checked, Templar couldn't brainwash / summon demons or be a threat no matter what position they are in. And there's far less Templar that are pro-mage than there is blood mages.

[Benchmark]

ajm317 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

The mages from the quest On the Loose were all recently escaped circle mages.

I'm pretty sure all the mages from the quest Best Served Cold were circle mages (although Grace had only recently been captured).

The two mages we speak to in "Best Served Cold" are from the Starkhaven Circle (Grace and Alain), we have no idea what the other mages who are cowering are like, and besides the socially inept virgin we hunt down for the Knight-Commander, one mage was insane while another was an abomination in On the Loose. We hardly ever meet mages living in the Gallows (with Bethany and Orsino as the prime exceptions), and we have no idea what the many mages and apprentices are like. We can't praise or condemn the Circle when we're denied an opportunity to make our own assessment about them.

1.  Those might be the only two mages that we speak to in "Best Served Cold" but I remember fighting quite a few.  My memory could be hazy though I guess.
2.  They're from the Starkhaven Circle originally, but they're in the Kirkwall circle now so I'm not sure how that matters.  They're not the only mages in Kirkwall who came from Starkhaven at any rate.
3.  It's true that one mage in On the Loose was crazy and one was an abomination, but both were in the circle up until very recently.  It is reasonable to suggest that at the very least the crazy one was still crazy when he was there, and the abomination was likely an abomination as well.

Benchmark isn't arguing that Hawke has enough information at that point to support the RoA, if I read him correctly.  He is basically arguing for a search warrant.  Given what we saw in those two quests it is not unreasonable to suggest we might only be seeing the tip of the iceberg (in fact we were) and having a look around.

Thank you for stating my case more clearly Ajm.

Hawke does have many encounters with "Circle Mage" ,labeled such likely due to some indication they come from the Kirkwall circle, and these "Circle Mage" routinely summon shades and demons.

There should be 0 incidence of Blood Magic and demonology in a circle. It is a crime that has a zero-tolerance policy surrounding it. Hawke has seen it repeatedly, yet Orsino is not finding the culprits within the circle. Hawke has reason to suspect Orsino already, and should very strongly feel something is rotten in Denmark.

I am not saying that Hawke shouldn't side with the mages; but ,a thoughtful and strategic Hawke, might side with Meredith to get a chance to do Orsino's job for him. Meredith is a nutcase, Orsino is a snake and is hiding blood mages in the circle.

I can pretty easily go either way. It isn't fair to muddy the waters with accusations of being a warcriminal or insist on characterizing TemplarHawke as a babykiller.

[LobselVith8]

ajm317 wrote...

1.  Those might be the only two mages that we speak to in "Best Served Cold" but I remember fighting quite a few.  My memory could be hazy though I guess.
2.  They're from the Starkhaven Circle originally, but they're in the Kirkwall circle now so I'm not sure how that matters.  They're not the only mages in Kirkwall who came from Starkhaven at any rate.
3.  It's true that one mage in On the Loose was crazy and one was an abomination, but both were in the circle up until very recently.  It is reasonable to suggest that at the very least the crazy one was still crazy when he was there, and the abomination was likely an abomination as well.

Benchmark isn't arguing that Hawke has enough information at that point to support the RoA, if I read him correctly.  He is basically arguing for a search warrant.  Given what we saw in those two quests it is not unreasonable to suggest we might only be seeing the tip of the iceberg (in fact we were) and having a look around.

1. Hawke fights against apostates (which is precisely how they are defined in the Best Served Cold quest) and renegade templars, with the exception of Alain and other mages who are cowering.
2. True, they were at Starkhaven originally, and it seems there has been an influx of Starkhaven mages to the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches, but we're still not afforded an opportunity to actually meet the mages and the apprentices inside the Gallows to make any determination about them.
3. Huon was sane in the Alienage, and Evelina was sane in the Ferelden Circle. Emile wasn't like either of them, though.

What we saw in those two quests was more mages outside of the Gallows that still leaves us without any way to assess what the mages inside the Gallows are like.

[Wulfram]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Umm... not really? Last I checked, Templar couldn't brainwash / summon demons or be a threat no matter what position they are in. And there's far less Templar that are pro-mage than there is blood mages.

There were at least as many Templars stupidly attacking you as circle mages.  And those damn hunters are far more of a threat than any blood mage or abomination..

Modifié par Wulfram, 20 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[ajm317]

I think it's important to note that even Templar Hawke does not order the RoA.  Meredith does that.  You're not given the choice between doing or not doing the RoA like you were in Origins.  The RoA is happening.  The question you are asked is what are you going to do about it?

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

Thank you for stating my case more clearly Ajm.

Hawke does have many encounters with "Circle Mage" ,labeled such likely due to some indication they come from the Kirkwall circle, and these "Circle Mage" routinely summon shades and demons.

Hawke encounters apostates who are outside the Circle many times, and he's never afforded an opportunity to meet the many mages inside the Gallows. Judging the Circle mages on the basis of apostates is like judging dwarves by the actions of the carta members we fight.

Benchmark wrote...

There should be 0 incidence of Blood Magic and demonology in a circle. It is a crime that has a zero-tolerance policy surrounding it. Hawke has seen it repeatedly, yet Orsino is not finding the culprits within the circle. Hawke has reason to suspect Orsino already, and should very strongly feel something is rotten in Denmark.

Meredith runs the Circle of Magi like she does the city-state of Kirkwall, so I don't see how you blame him when Meredith has installed herself as the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall and Bethany's codex directly addresses that she's holding a tight grip over the mages in the Gallows. Also, we have Bethany as a counterpoint to Orsino.

Benchmark wrote...

I am not saying that Hawke shouldn't side with the mages; but ,a thoughtful and strategic Hawke, might side with Meredith to get a chance to do Orsino's job for him. Meredith is a nutcase, Orsino is a snake and is hiding blood mages in the circle.

Hawke is ignorant of what the mages in the Circle of Magi are like, and Meredith ordered the execution of the mages because Anders blew up the Chantry. I don't personally see any purpose in helping the templars kill mages because Anders killed Grand Cleric Elthina. I admit that Orsino and Meredith do incredibly stupid things, one another the other. Orsino becomes a recycled Harvester to fit in with the recycled backgrounds and the recycled Varterral while Meredith becomes Goku with the help of her red and ridiculous Macguffin.

Benchmark wrote...

I can pretty easily go either way. It isn't fair to muddy the waters with accusations of being a warcriminal or insist on characterizing TemplarHawke as a babykiller.

A lack of information doesn't provide us with anything but speculation on what the mages could be like, nothing factual since there's an absense of Hawke actually going inside the Gallows and meeting the mages and the apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall.

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Of course, Best Served Cold gives as good justification for "annulling" the Templars as it does the mages

Umm... not really? Last I checked, Templar couldn't brainwash / summon demons or be a threat no matter what position they are in. And there's far less Templar that are pro-mage than there is blood mages.

Well the Chantry can brainwash people. Just sayin'.

Maybe they don't hate the brainwashing, but rather who brainwashes whom, and how.

[LobselVith8]

ajm317 wrote...

I think it's important to note that even Templar Hawke does not order the RoA. Meredith does that. You're not given the choice between doing or not doing the RoA like you were in Origins. The RoA is happening. The question you are asked is what are you going to do about it?

Which amounts to killing Circle mages because an apostate killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
There were at least as many Templars stupidly attacking you as circle mages.  And those damn hunters are far more of a threat than any blood mage or abomination..

I wonder how much lyrium they infused in those.

[DKJaigen]

louise101 wrote...
[/quote]

The blame for the RoA's lies with demons does it not.
[/quote]

The problem is that we dont know what happend  or why they happend in previous RoA's . Where the circles infiltraded by demons or was it just a tool to suppress a rebellion.

[Wulfram]

ajm317 wrote...

I think it's important to note that even Templar Hawke does not order the RoA.  Meredith does that.  You're not given the choice between doing or not doing the RoA like you were in Origins.  The RoA is happening.  The question you are asked is what are you going to do about it?

That's true.  I couldn't play a character who actually agreed with the Annulment, but my character who went along with it in the hopes of limiting civilian casualties worked out OK.

[Benchmark]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

Thank you for stating my case more clearly Ajm.

Hawke does have many encounters with "Circle Mage" ,labeled such likely due to some indication they come from the Kirkwall circle, and these "Circle Mage" routinely summon shades and demons.

Hawke encounters apostates who are outside the Circle many times, and he's never afforded an opportunity to meet the many mages inside the Gallows. Judging the Circle mages on the basis of apostates is like judging dwarves by the actions of the carta members we fight.

Benchmark wrote...

There should be 0 incidence of Blood Magic and demonology in a circle. It is a crime that has a zero-tolerance policy surrounding it. Hawke has seen it repeatedly, yet Orsino is not finding the culprits within the circle. Hawke has reason to suspect Orsino already, and should very strongly feel something is rotten in Denmark.

Meredith runs the Circle of Magi like she does the city-state of Kirkwall, so I don't see how you blame him when Meredith has installed herself as the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall and Bethany's codex directly addresses that she's holding a tight grip over the mages in the Gallows. Also, we have Bethany as a counterpoint to Orsino.

Benchmark wrote...

I am not saying that Hawke shouldn't side with the mages; but ,a thoughtful and strategic Hawke, might side with Meredith to get a chance to do Orsino's job for him. Meredith is a nutcase, Orsino is a snake and is hiding blood mages in the circle.

Hawke is ignorant of what the mages in the Circle of Magi are like, and Meredith ordered the execution of the mages because Anders blew up the Chantry. I don't personally see any purpose in helping the templars kill mages because Anders killed Grand Cleric Elthina. I admit that Orsino and Meredith do incredibly stupid things, one another the other. Orsino becomes a recycled Harvester to fit in with the recycled backgrounds and the recycled Varterral while Meredith becomes Goku with the help of her red and ridiculous Macguffin.

Benchmark wrote...

I can pretty easily go either way. It isn't fair to muddy the waters with accusations of being a warcriminal or insist on characterizing TemplarHawke as a babykiller.

A lack of information doesn't provide us with anything but speculation on what the mages could be like, nothing factual since there's an absense of Hawke actually going inside the Gallows and meeting the mages and the apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall.

You are completely ignoring the mages present other than Grace and Alain. Mages that are clearly labelled "Circle Mage".

You are also ignoring the first group of mages you eavesdrop on, again several are labeled "Circle Mage". Others labeled "Blood Mage". So again, a group of blood mages and circle mages that summon shades and demons to kill you.

You are also pretending that every escaped mage suddenly learns blood magic when they escape. Mage goes into the circle without real control of his powers, mage escapes the circle using amazingly advancded blood magic (ie Huon). Doesn't take a big leap to realize he learned from someone and that somewhere in the circle a snake is poisoning the apprentices.

[AlexXIV]

DKJaigen wrote...

louise101 wrote...

The blame for the RoA's lies with demons does it not.

The problem is that we dont know what happend  or why they happend in previous RoA's . Where the circles infiltraded by demons or was it just a tool to suppress a rebellion.

Well we know the 'almost Annullment' in Ferelden. I don't think the Circle of Kirkwall was in the same state as the Circle of Ferelden when Gregoire called it. I mean a demon had the First Enchanter as hostage and some other mages. And the rest of the tower basically had abominations in every room.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 20 avril 2011 - 09:14 .

[Wulfram]

Benchmark wrote...

You are also pretending that every escaped mage suddenly learns blood magic when they escape. Mage goes into the circle without real control of his powers, mage escapes the circle using amazingly advancded blood magic (ie Huon). Doesn't take a big leap to realize he learned from someone and that somewhere in the circle a snake is poisoning the apprentices.

Demons seem to be able to teach you blood magic pretty much instantly.

Huon didn't use blood magic to escape, by the way.  The people Meredith has you chase down escaped because of sympathetic Templars - she says most were easily recaptured and offered no resistance, which is an interesting paralell to the claims of an out of control circle infested by blood mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

I think it's important to note that even Templar Hawke does not order the RoA.  Meredith does that.  You're not given the choice between doing or not doing the RoA like you were in Origins.  The RoA is happening.  The question you are asked is what are you going to do about it?

That's true.  I couldn't play a character who actually agreed with the Annulment, but my character who went along with it in the hopes of limiting civilian casualties worked out OK.

They should have really added a neutral option to help Aveline's guards in securing some quarters, evacuating civilians...etc. Since either choice has us fighting demons anyways, we can fight them there as well. Then maybe someone asks Hawke to go to the Gallows as both Templars and mages have gone mad. Hawke goes there, kills the Harvester. Meredith shows up and becomes mad. Hawke kills her too. Then either stays and becomes Viscount (and disapears later), or hides.

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

You are completely ignoring the mages present other than Grace and Alain. Mages that are clearly labelled "Circle Mage".

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm addressing we can't make any valid assessment about the mages of the Gallows when we don't meet them in the Gallows. You're bringing up repeated examples of mages who are outside of the Gallows, but it tells us nothing about what the mages currently living in the Gallows are like.

Benchmark wrote...

You are also ignoring the first group of mages you eavesdrop on, again several are labeled "Circle Mage". Others labeled "Blood Mage". So again, a group of blood mages and circle mages that summon shades and demons to kill you.

Mages and templars who tell us nothing about the mages and apprentices living in the Gallows.

Benchmark wrote...

You are also pretending that every escaped mage suddenly learns blood magic when they escape. Mage goes into the circle without real control of his powers, mage escapes the circle using amazingly advancded blood magic (ie Huon). Doesn't take a big leap to realize he learned from someone and that somewhere in the circle a snake is poisoning the apprentices.

I'm not pretending anything, I'm addressing that Hawke can't make a valid assessment of people he has little to no knowledge about. Mages we encounter outside of the Gallows don't tell us what the mages who are inside of the Gallows are like. Mages who weren't part of Thrask's initiative against Meredith aren't people we can know about if we're looking at mages who joined Thrask to see her removed from power. All you're doing is providing your speculations and asserting them as though they were indisputable facts.