945 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

louise101 wrote...
'Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars would rather have soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty than paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices'. (Wiki)

Many arguments are based on todays law and thinking, i am a bit tired of the opinion that in gaming you must slam the law hammer of today into it to make it viable. A templar could not refuse an order from Meredith, i would have preffered cullen to put her in her place but he couldn't.

Erm, he does. Remember the part when Meredith wants to kill Hawke in the end? The reason why Meredith uses her 'Sword of Awesomeness'? Cullen keeps her from killing Hawke and the rest of his/her party. Funny thing is that he would let her kill innocents to follow the demands of the Order, but not Hawke who could be a mage or bloodmage or apostate. Also they would probably have to tranquilize or kill Bethany because that's what Annullments are about. Kill or tranquilize every single mage.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 avril 2011 - 05:26 .

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...
Many arguments are based on todays law and thinking, i am a bit tired of the opinion that in gaming you must slam the law hammer of today into it to make it viable. A templar could not refuse an order from Meredith, i would have preffered cullen to put her in her place but he couldn't.

False.  Templars can and many did.  Keenan (if a templar) after you meet him in Act 3 goes on strike and stops following all orders from the Templars until and unless Meredith is replaced.  In the end even Cullen not only can but does refuse a technically legal order from Meredith and relieves her of command because she has gone too far.

So YES Templars can and do refuse orders.  There are consequences, but the modern day military ethics of following orders is very clearly present just from the game-play evidence alone!

-Polaris

Also I am pretty sure soldiers have always defied orders or defected. It is not like being soldier or templar makes you a mindless drone. People probably have a wrong idea about history. Many ethics from nowadays have been around for a while. Just take the bible as an example. Medivial times just didn't happen to be the most glorious of humankind. For obvious reasons.

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...
Many arguments are based on todays law and thinking, i am a bit tired of the opinion that in gaming you must slam the law hammer of today into it to make it viable. A templar could not refuse an order from Meredith, i would have preffered cullen to put her in her place but he couldn't.

False.  Templars can and many did.  Keenan (if a templar) after you meet him in Act 3 goes on strike and stops following all orders from the Templars until and unless Meredith is replaced.  In the end even Cullen not only can but does refuse a technically legal order from Meredith and relieves her of command because she has gone too far.

So YES Templars can and do refuse orders.  There are consequences, but the modern day military ethics of following orders is very clearly present just from the game-play evidence alone!

-Polaris

Its not suprising that a few templars go rogue, seriously this is kirkwall. Cullen even lets you decide if samson should be reinstated but on the whole as order they should not recruit soldiers that will not follow orders unless it is absolutely necessary. What would cullen have to factor here.. 

'Give samson a job back.. hmm?

'The chantry and half a district has just been blown up by an apostate, blood mages are loose and templars are being infected with demons'. 

Not exactly a spur of the moment easy decision. If he had been there when she invoked it and killed her.. that would have been great, the hero angle and all that but it proved at least, cullens loyalty to the order (not Meredith) which was maybe needed after others going rogue.  If then cullen and everyone else went to clear out the tower he would, i'd imagine have cleared it and not slaughtered everyone. Happy ending but stories aren't sunshine and bunnies, and bioware like putting dark angles into stories.

[IanPolaris]

louise101 wrote...

Not exactly a spur of the moment easy decision. If he had been there when she invoked it and killed her.. that would have been great, the hero angle and all that but it proved at least, cullens loyalty to the order (not Meredith) which was maybe needed after others going rogue.  If then cullen and everyone else went to clear out the tower he would, i'd imagine have cleared it and not slaughtered everyone. Happy ending but stories aren't sunshine and bunnies, and bioware like putting dark angles into stories.

Oh bolloxs.  This isn't a dark or grey decision. It's an evil one.  Meredith from her own clear insanity (it was clear even before we saw the idol) is ording genocide.  Legal or not, it's evil and there is NO grey or quibble about it.

You either support genocide or you do not.  All other questions are irrelevant next to the scope of that one and it's NOT a grey choice.

-Polaris

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Not exactly a spur of the moment easy decision. If he had been there when she invoked it and killed her.. that would have been great, the hero angle and all that but it proved at least, cullens loyalty to the order (not Meredith) which was maybe needed after others going rogue.  If then cullen and everyone else went to clear out the tower he would, i'd imagine have cleared it and not slaughtered everyone. Happy ending but stories aren't sunshine and bunnies, and bioware like putting dark angles into stories.

Oh bolloxs.  This isn't a dark or grey decision. It's an evil one.  Meredith from her own clear insanity (it was clear even before we saw the idol) is ording genocide.  Legal or not, it's evil and there is NO grey or quibble about it.

You either support genocide or you do not.  All other questions are irrelevant next to the scope of that one and it's NOT a grey choice.

-Polaris

This a GAME and you keep flinging the word genocide around saying that people either support it or don't? Thats bollox.

[Lewie]

I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

[Ryzaki]

louise101 wrote...


I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

LOL

That's a genocide I'm sure most people can get behind.  

That and destroying the Reapers. 

[moilami]

louise101 wrote...


I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

The fact that you speak about mages and collectors on the same context shows very well how out of touch of reality your thinking is - not that it would had been obscured before.

[Lewie]

moilami wrote...

louise101 wrote...


I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

The fact that you speak about mages and collectors on the same context shows very well how out of touch of reality your thinking is - not that it would had been obscured before.

Reality is real life, gaming is fun and exploration i didn't think that made me thick but thanks for pointing that out.

[IanPolaris]

louise101 wrote...


I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

The species was already wiped out.  What you destroyed was no more than biological constructs.  Mordin explains the difference very well I think in the game (ME2).

-Polaris

[Uzzy]

moilami wrote...

louise101 wrote...


I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

The fact that you speak about mages and collectors on the same context shows very well how out of touch of reality your thinking is - not that it would had been obscured before.

So, I see that humour bypass operation went well!

In other news, I only sided with the Templars as it meant I got to kill mages. Run little magelings:wizard:, run!

[Lewie]

Uzzy wrote...

moilami wrote...

louise101 wrote...


I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

The fact that you speak about mages and collectors on the same context shows very well how out of touch of reality your thinking is - not that it would had been obscured before.

So, I see that humour bypass operation went well!

In other news, I only sided with the Templars as it meant I got to kill mages. Run little magelings:wizard:, run!

I would put a spider outside before i would kill it, but if i want to slaughter everyone in a game ill bloody do it. 

Modifié par louise101, 21 avril 2011 - 07:58 .

[AlexXIV]

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Not exactly a spur of the moment easy decision. If he had been there when she invoked it and killed her.. that would have been great, the hero angle and all that but it proved at least, cullens loyalty to the order (not Meredith) which was maybe needed after others going rogue.  If then cullen and everyone else went to clear out the tower he would, i'd imagine have cleared it and not slaughtered everyone. Happy ending but stories aren't sunshine and bunnies, and bioware like putting dark angles into stories.

Oh bolloxs.  This isn't a dark or grey decision. It's an evil one.  Meredith from her own clear insanity (it was clear even before we saw the idol) is ording genocide.  Legal or not, it's evil and there is NO grey or quibble about it.

You either support genocide or you do not.  All other questions are irrelevant next to the scope of that one and it's NOT a grey choice.

-Polaris

This a GAME and you keep flinging the word genocide around saying that people either support it or don't? Thats bollox.

Well if you start using the 'it's a game' argument then you can as well admit that you have been wrong. Of course it is a game, you don't really do all the bad things. But you realize if you did it in real life it would be bad? I hope.

[moilami]

Uzzy wrote...

moilami wrote...

louise101 wrote...


I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

The fact that you speak about mages and collectors on the same context shows very well how out of touch of reality your thinking is - not that it would had been obscured before.

So, I see that humour bypass operation went well!

In other news, I only sided with the Templars as it meant I got to kill mages. Run little magelings:wizard:, run!

I am very sorry but I am totally uninterested of what you do in video games.

[Uzzy]

moilami wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

moilami wrote...

louise101 wrote...


I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

The fact that you speak about mages and collectors on the same context shows very well how out of touch of reality your thinking is - not that it would had been obscured before.

So, I see that humour bypass operation went well!

In other news, I only sided with the Templars as it meant I got to kill mages. Run little magelings:wizard:, run!

I am very sorry but I am totally uninterested of what you do in video games.

A shame. You seemed totally interested before, by posting here. Oh well.

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

This a GAME and you keep flinging the word genocide around saying that people either support it or don't? Thats bollox.

Aren't we talking about the implications of what Hawke does? Meredith orders the execution of the Circle mages for an act an apostate committed. The killing of every man, woman, and child with magical ability from the Circle of Kirkwall, and since there's only one Circle of Magi standing in the Free Marches, one can assume it has a significant population of mages and apprentices. There's a reason people see it as genocide in the context of the story.

[Uzzy]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well if you start using the 'it's a game' argument then you can as well admit that you have been wrong. Of course it is a game, you don't really do all the bad things. But you realize if you did it in real life it would be bad? I hope.

We also don't have a situation in real life where people can, through no fault of their own, willingly or unwillingly, pose a massive danger to society around them.

Now, we could have a discussion about the issues raised in Act 3 of Dragon Age II. A proper, decent discussion about the opposing philosophies and ideologies at work. It would certainly be difficult due to the huge failings in Act 3, but it might be interesting. Might get a little heated too. But if people like Polaris continue to be utterly childish and attempt to shut down any debate by calling people who disagree with him 'evil supporters of genocide', then that discussion isn't going to get very far, is it?

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...
I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

Is it really the same narrative as helping templars kill Circle mages when they are innocent of the act that the apostate Anders committed, though?

[AlexXIV]

Uzzy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well if you start using the 'it's a game' argument then you can as well admit that you have been wrong. Of course it is a game, you don't really do all the bad things. But you realize if you did it in real life it would be bad? I hope.

We also don't have a situation in real life where people can, through no fault of their own, willingly or unwillingly, pose a massive danger to society around them.

Now, we could have a discussion about the issues raised in Act 3 of Dragon Age II. A proper, decent discussion about the opposing philosophies and ideologies at work. It would certainly be difficult due to the huge failings in Act 3, but it might be interesting. Might get a little heated too. But if people like Polaris continue to be utterly childish and attempt to shut down any debate by calling people who disagree with him 'evil supporters of genocide', then that discussion isn't going to get very far, is it?

Having discussions really only makes sense if people are willing to listen and think about different opinions. I mostly only see everyone stating their own opinion and defending it to the last breath. And IanPolaris is not the only one.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 avril 2011 - 08:34 .

[moilami]

Uzzy wrote...

moilami wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

moilami wrote...

louise101 wrote...


I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

The fact that you speak about mages and collectors on the same context shows very well how out of touch of reality your thinking is - not that it would had been obscured before.

So, I see that humour bypass operation went well!

In other news, I only sided with the Templars as it meant I got to kill mages. Run little magelings:wizard:, run!

I am very sorry but I am totally uninterested of what you do in video games.

A shame. You seemed totally interested before, by posting here. Oh well.

No. I am interested of mage/chantry issue. Not of what you do in video games. I am surprised this is not obvious - but when I remember how concerned people are of video games it does not surprise me that much.

[moilami]

Uzzy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well if you start using the 'it's a game' argument then you can as well admit that you have been wrong. Of course it is a game, you don't really do all the bad things. But you realize if you did it in real life it would be bad? I hope.

We also don't have a situation in real life where people can, through no fault of their own, willingly or unwillingly, pose a massive danger to society around them.

Now, we could have a discussion about the issues raised in Act 3 of Dragon Age II. A proper, decent discussion about the opposing philosophies and ideologies at work. It would certainly be difficult due to the huge failings in Act 3, but it might be interesting. Might get a little heated too. But if people like Polaris continue to be utterly childish and attempt to shut down any debate by calling people who disagree with him 'evil supporters of genocide', then that discussion isn't going to get very far, is it?

Mage/chantry issues has been discussed to the death before. That said, why you are so defensive when facts are said to you?

[Ryzaki]

I wonder if destroying the heretical geth counts as genocide to some of you people.

[Lewie]

AlexXIV wrote...

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Not exactly a spur of the moment easy decision. If he had been there when she invoked it and killed her.. that would have been great, the hero angle and all that but it proved at least, cullens loyalty to the order (not Meredith) which was maybe needed after others going rogue.  If then cullen and everyone else went to clear out the tower he would, i'd imagine have cleared it and not slaughtered everyone. Happy ending but stories aren't sunshine and bunnies, and bioware like putting dark angles into stories.

Oh bolloxs.  This isn't a dark or grey decision. It's an evil one.  Meredith from her own clear insanity (it was clear even before we saw the idol) is ording genocide.  Legal or not, it's evil and there is NO grey or quibble about it.

You either support genocide or you do not.  All other questions are irrelevant next to the scope of that one and it's NOT a grey choice.

-Polaris

This a GAME and you keep flinging the word genocide around saying that people either support it or don't? Thats bollox.

Well if you start using the 'it's a game' argument then you can as well admit that you have been wrong. Of course it is a game, you don't really do all the bad things. But you realize if you did it in real life it would be bad? I hope.

The game gives you 2 choices, i paid for the game its my right to chose what i decide if that annoys you then tough. Deal with it. I don't tell people that support mages that they are wrong, i play both sides, ultimately have sided with the templars more at the end, and thats it. I don't have to admit i am wrong, im going through a thought process here by going through points with other people, and respect their choices. I have enough maturity not to fling insults about or accuse people of being mass murderers if people don't agree with me.

I still don't agree with slaughtering every templar either. That hasn't changed. My choice.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

I wonder if destroying the heretical geth counts as genocide to some of you people.

I'd say that the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of men, women, and children because they're mages counts as genocide to some people.

[moilami]

Ryzaki wrote...

I wonder if destroying the heretical geth counts as genocide to some of you people.

Geth were computers?