945 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

I wonder if destroying the heretical geth counts as genocide to some of you people.

It's a very valid question which is why the choice of brainwashing or destroying IS such an interesting and grey choice in ME2.  That choice was very well done.  I think it is and brainwashing is better (and even Legion says that it's a mistake to apply biological intelligence standards to synthetic being...much to the horror of Tali of all people).

That is nothing like the choice presented here:  Do you support a clear madwoman in her crusade to murder all circle mages in Kirkwall (legal or not) or do you defend a group of people that are innocent of the specific charge against them (destroying the chantry) even if you might wind up protecting some slimeballs.

It's not a grey choice at all, nor even a particularly hard one.  There is a clear good and evil side.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Right. Enjoy your little black and white bubble.

[AlexXIV]

Ryzaki wrote...

I wonder if destroying the heretical geth counts as genocide to some of you people.

You know what a big diference is? The situation.

If you take for example Shepard in Arrival. Could say there was not much choice/time.

On the Collector base Shep hardly got out alive, same with the crew.

I destroyed the heretics because they made a choice. The choice being to serve the Reapers and worship them as gods. Rewriting them would probably have changed that but I believe people should stand by their choices and brainwashing is not really a way to 'think things over'. But geth as such I consider people yes. Sometimes people who make wrong choices have to be killed for that.

The situation in Kirkwall is different in so far as we talk about innocents. Not all mages are innocents but there are some. Some who followed the rules, did what they were told. See Bethany for example. Such people. Of course people who defend the templar side claim that Bethany was the only one, because thinking there could be another Bethany in the Circle who would be killed in the attack isn't really a nice thought, is it?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 avril 2011 - 08:52 .

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

Right. Enjoy your little black and white bubble.

Well the decision to commit or not commit genocide is pretty much black and white no matter how much Bioware wants to try to tell us differently.

-Polaris

[moilami]

Ryzaki wrote...

Right. Enjoy your little black and white bubble.

You think putting people to concentration camps called mage circles by religious freaks is grey area?

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

Right. Enjoy your little black and white bubble.

Why do you say that? An apostate blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, and everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice paid the price for someone who wasn't a member of the Circle of Kirkwall. There's no ambiguity to killing the mages and apprentices in the Circle of Kirkwall for something Anders did deliberately to start a war between templars and mages.

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I wonder if destroying the heretical geth counts as genocide to some of you people.

You know what a big diference is? The situation.

If you take for example Shepard in Arrival. Could say there was not much choice/time.

On the Collector base Shep hardly got out alive, same with the crew.

I destroyed the heretics because they made a choice. The choice being to serve the Reapers and worship them as gods. Rewriting them would probably have changed that but I believe people should stand by their choices and brainwashing is not really a way to 'think things over'. But geth as such I consider people yes. Sometimes people who make wrong choices and have to be killed for that.

The situation in Kirkwall is different is so far as we talk about innocents. Not all mages are innocents but there are some. Some who followed the rules, did what they were told. See Bethany for example. Such people. Of course people who defend the templar side claim that Bethany was the only one, because thinking there could be another Bethany in the Circle who would be killed in the attack isn't really a nice thought, is it?

Even if there were only one innocent, Meredith's actions would still be morally unjustified.  That's the way it works.  As things are, there are probably many innocents (we know for example that there are children in the gallows which you have to slaughter if you side with Meredith)

-Polaris

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Right. Enjoy your little black and white bubble.

Why do you say that? An apostate blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, and everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice paid the price for someone who wasn't a member of the Circle of Kirkwall. There's no ambiguity to killing the mages and apprentices in the Circle of Kirkwall for something Anders did deliberately to start a war between templars and mages.

Might just be me, but I'd think that the bunch of blood mages in the circle, demon possessions, and crazy shenanigans like crazy people trying to implant templars with demons might have had a bit to do with the decision to call for the Right of Annulment too.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Right. Enjoy your little black and white bubble.

Why do you say that? An apostate blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, and everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice paid the price for someone who wasn't a member of the Circle of Kirkwall. There's no ambiguity to killing the mages and apprentices in the Circle of Kirkwall for something Anders did deliberately to start a war between templars and mages.

Of course because everyone picked that choice just to kill the mages for the lulz. Indeed. 

Like I said enjoy the bubble. 

[Uzzy]

moilami wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Right. Enjoy your little black and white bubble.

You think putting people to concentration camps called mage circles by religious freaks is grey area?

And you wonder why people get defensive when your 'facts' are those. I guess you do enjoy Polaris' bubble.

[Lewie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...
I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

Is it really the same narrative as helping templars kill Circle mages when they are innocent of the act that the apostate Anders committed, though?

Anders incited a war, that was his intent, and got one. He said himself  'Im starting a war'.  Meredith was off her rocker of course she would scream annulment, but, would a sane Gregior have declared it? Everyone in the city was killing eachother thats what we were given. We didn't know if the mages were corrupt in the gallows or not. My first playthrough i sided with mages but Orsino at the end was a big let down.

Hawke was left to clean up the mess either way.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I wonder if destroying the heretical geth counts as genocide to some of you people.

It's a very valid question which is why the choice of brainwashing or destroying IS such an interesting and grey choice in ME2.  That choice was very well done.  I think it is and brainwashing is better (and even Legion says that it's a mistake to apply biological intelligence standards to synthetic being...much to the horror of Tali of all people).

-Polaris

Indeed, and I wish this whole paragon / renegade divide did nto exist as it's a distraction.

The situation there was well written. The end of Act 3 is a writing debacle. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 avril 2011 - 08:59 .

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Might just be me, but I'd think that the bunch of blood mages in the circle, demon possessions, and crazy shenanigans like crazy people trying to implant templars with demons might have had a bit to do with the decision to call for the Right of Annulment too.

Hawke encounters mage antagonists outside of the Gallows, but he doesn't have the opportunity to see what the many mages and apprentices inside the Gallows are like. The best 'look' into mage life inside the Gallows is only given through Bethany's letter when she talks about avoiding templars like Ser Alrik and how much she enjoys teaching children. We can't make any estimation of whether the mages are good or bad when we lack information about the many mages and apprentices living in the Gallows.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke encounters mage antagonists outside of the Gallows, but he doesn't have the opportunity to see what the many mages and apprentices inside the Gallows are like. The best 'look' into mage life inside the Gallows is only given through Bethany's letter when she talks about avoiding templars like Ser Alrik and how much she enjoys teaching children. We can't make any estimation of whether the mages are good or bad when we lack information about the many mages and apprentices living in the Gallows.

Grace and Alain weren't circle mages?

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

Of course because everyone picked that choice just to kill the mages for the lulz. Indeed.

Like I said enjoy the bubble.

Honestly, it seems more like people are judging mages and apprentices they have never met in the Gallows based on the actions of mages outside of the Gallows, which is no different than judging all the dwarves living in Kirkwall based on the multitude of carta members Hawke fights who all happen to be dwarves.

Do we get a chance to see the many mages inside the Gallows? No. We're given limited exposure to very, very few mages, like Orsino, Bethany, Grace and Alain, but such a small number of people hardly provide us with any insight into what the mages living in the Gallows are actually like.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Honestly, it seems more like people are judging mages and apprentices they have never met in the Gallows based on the actions of mages outside of the Gallows, which is no different than judging all the dwarves living in Kirkwall based on the multitude of carta members Hawke fights who all happen to be dwarves.

Do we get a chance to see the many mages inside the Gallows? No. We're given limited exposure to very, very few mages, like Orsino, Bethany, Grace and Alain, but such a small number of people hardly provide us with any insight into what the mages living in the Gallows are actually like.

Well... the argument that we don't get to see what goes in in the gallows, so the right being called is bad isn't quite right though. Hawke isn't the one who calls for the right, Meredith is. I don't really see how you can infer that the entire reason behind the call for the Right is entirely because of Anders' action. Do you really think Meredith would have called for the Right had there been no evidence of blood magic, demons, etc. over the past several years?

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

Anders incited a war, that was his intent, and got one. He said himself 'Im starting a war'.

And he's an apostate, who Meredith proceeded to almost entirely ignore after she called the Right of Annulment.

louise101 wrote...

Meredith was off her rocker of course she would scream annulment, but, would a sane Gregior have declared it? Everyone in the city was killing eachother thats what we were given.

Mages and templars were fighting because the Right of Annulment was invoked.

louise101 wrote...

We didn't know if the mages were corrupt in the gallows or not. My first playthrough i sided with mages but Orsino at the end was a big let down.

Hawke was left to clean up the mess either way.

Exactly, Hawke doesn't know whether the mages and apprentices in the Gallows are good or bad. The issue is it doesn't even become an dilemma about the mages and apprentices because Meredith has been hijacked by an evil Macguffin and Orsino needs to continue the trend of DA2 recycling by becoming the GoA Harvester, even when it makes absolutely no sense for him to do so. The most exposure Hawke has to Circle mages is Orsino and Bethany.

[AlexXIV]

louise101 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...
I guess i do because i blew up the collector base and wiped out a species. Damn. 

Is it really the same narrative as helping templars kill Circle mages when they are innocent of the act that the apostate Anders committed, though?

Anders incited a war, that was his intent, and got one. He said himself  'Im starting a war'.  Meredith was off her rocker of course she would scream annulment, but, would a sane Gregior have declared it? Everyone in the city was killing eachother thats what we were given. We didn't know if the mages were corrupt in the gallows or not. My first playthrough i sided with mages but Orsino at the end was a big let down.

Hawke was left to clean up the mess either way.

Well Orsino was not only a let down for you. Probably for everyone. Orsino is as guilty for me as Meredith. It is thanks to Orsino that bloodmages thrived in Kirkwall and he knowingly endangered all the mages, even those who lived along the rules. If you take the Grand Cleric, Meredith and Orsino together there couldn't have been a worse choice of leaders of Kirkwall and the Gallows. Anyway I'd still refuse to kill innocents unless something really big is at stake. A Reaper invasion for example. I don't like to count corpses as a justification for murder. To say look I killed 100 but I saved 101. Good job! But if for example the extincion of a race stands against killing a small percentage of another race then I would try to save the one threatened by extinction. Even though it'd be a really cold and cruel choice and I would certainly not be happy about it. The threat of the mages in Kirkwall though is not really big enough to sell your soul for it. Or like Paragon Shep would have said '... to sell the soul of our species for it'.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 avril 2011 - 09:14 .

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Well... the argument that we don't get to see what goes in in the gallows, so the right being called is bad isn't quite right though. Hawke isn't the one who calls for the right, Meredith is.

And Meredith is insane because of the Mighty Macguffin.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I don't really see how you can infer that the entire reason behind the call for the Right is entirely because of Anders' action.

I said so because Meredith says so. She addresses that the people will demand blood.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Do you really think Meredith would have called for the Right had there been no evidence of blood magic, demons, etc. over the past several years?

The problem is Kerras mentions that, not Meredith. She addresses the attack on the Chantry as her reason for calling the Right of Annulment when she speaks to Hawke.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

And Meredith is insane because of the Mighty Macguffin.

I said so because Meredith says so. She addresses that the people will demand blood.

The problem is Kerras mentions that, not Meredith. She addresses the attack on the Chantry as her reason for calling the Right of Annulment when she speaks to Hawke.

See, I think this is where we differ in our viewpoints. I think she addresses the attack on the chantry as a reason, the latest in a long line of reasons. You see it as the reason, other reasons need not apply. I leave it up to the other gentle readers to draw their own conclusions.

[AlexXIV]

The biggest fail is probably that for 3 years things got worse and nobody asked Hawke to help. So Hawke kinda did the house work, had long walks at the beach and long nights in the inn while he/she could as well have found and killed every single bloodmage within the Circle.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

See, I think this is where we differ in our viewpoints. I think she addresses the attack on the chantry as a reason, the latest in a long line of reasons. You see it as the reason, other reasons need not apply. I leave it up to the other gentle readers to draw their own conclusions.

So we should put our faith and trust in a Knight-Commander who usurped power to rule over Kirkwall as a dictator and is mentally unbalanced because of Mighty Macguffin to the point where she accuses Cullen and others of being under the influence of blood magic?

[KnightofPhoenix]

AlexXIV wrote...

The biggest fail is probably that for 3 years things got worse and nobody asked Hawke to help. So Hawke kinda did the house work, had long walks at the beach and long nights in the inn while he/she could as well have found and killed every single bloodmage within the Circle.

The biggest fail is Hawke needing someone to tell him the obvious.

[Lewie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Anders incited a war, that was his intent, and got one. He said himself 'Im starting a war'.

And he's an apostate, who Meredith proceeded to almost entirely ignore after she called the Right of Annulment.

louise101 wrote...

Meredith was off her rocker of course she would scream annulment, but, would a sane Gregior have declared it? Everyone in the city was killing eachother thats what we were given.

Mages and templars were fighting because the Right of Annulment was invoked.

louise101 wrote...

We didn't know if the mages were corrupt in the gallows or not. My first playthrough i sided with mages but Orsino at the end was a big let down.

Hawke was left to clean up the mess either way.

Exactly, Hawke doesn't know whether the mages and apprentices in the Gallows are good or bad. The issue is it doesn't even become an dilemma about the mages and apprentices because Meredith has been hijacked by an evil Macguffin and Orsino needs to continue the trend of DA2 recycling by becoming the GoA Harvester, even when it makes absolutely no sense for him to do so. The most exposure Hawke has to Circle mages is Orsino and Bethany.

There was also the 3 you had to chase down. The elf blood mage killing his wife made me cringe. All we know is they were around, and if Orsino was one then by association it puts the other mages under threat whether its right or wrong. Grace and Alain although escaped from starkhaven, were in the circle, or if you free them doesn't matter Grace wants revenge for lover boy decimus. When Alain used blood magic to free the hostage i thought 'Not you too!  . Bethany and Cullen were the only 2 you could trust. Even Thrasks daughter, she had such an innocent voice i wanted to get in and kill the mercenaries then 'Poof'. 

[AlexXIV]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The biggest fail is probably that for 3 years things got worse and nobody asked Hawke to help. So Hawke kinda did the house work, had long walks at the beach and long nights in the inn while he/she could as well have found and killed every single bloodmage within the Circle.

The biggest fail is Hawke needing someone to tell him the obvious.

Hawke can't do more than asking people for quests. If they say no then Hawke is unable to act. No quests, no action.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 avril 2011 - 09:27 .