945 réponses à ce sujet

[moilami]

Uzzy wrote...

moilami wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Right. Enjoy your little black and white bubble.

You think putting people to concentration camps called mage circles by religious freaks is grey area?

And you wonder why people get defensive when your 'facts' are those. I guess you do enjoy Polaris' bubble.

What was not a fact?

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The biggest fail is probably that for 3 years things got worse and nobody asked Hawke to help. So Hawke kinda did the house work, had long walks at the beach and long nights in the inn while he/she could as well have found and killed every single bloodmage within the Circle.

The biggest fail is Hawke needing someone to tell him the obvious.

The even larger fail is that we're supposed to think this makes sense. <_<

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

See, I think this is where we differ in our viewpoints. I think she addresses the attack on the chantry as a reason, the latest in a long line of reasons. You see it as the reason, other reasons need not apply. I leave it up to the other gentle readers to draw their own conclusions.

So we should put our faith and trust in a Knight-Commander who usurped power to rule over Kirkwall as a dictator and is mentally unbalanced because of Mighty Macguffin to the point where she accuses Cullen and others of being under the influence of blood magic?

Whoa there, Turbo. How does clarifying a difference in view on Meredith's rationale equate to me putting my faith and trust in her? 

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Exactly, Hawke doesn't know whether the mages and apprentices in the Gallows are good or bad. The issue is it doesn't even become an dilemma about the mages and apprentices because Meredith has been hijacked by an evil Macguffin and Orsino needs to continue the trend of DA2 recycling by becoming the GoA Harvester, even when it makes absolutely no sense for him to do so. The most exposure Hawke has to Circle mages is Orsino and Bethany.

There was also the 3 you had to chase down. The elf blood mage killing his wife made me cringe. All we know is they were around, and if Orsino was one then by association it puts the other mages under threat whether its right or wrong.

The three Hawke had to chase down were completely different. Huon was insane, Evelina was an abomination, and Emile was a virgin. And we know Bethany is teaching children like Ella, who is threatened with implied rape by Ser Alrik.

louise101 wrote...

Grace and Alain although escaped from starkhaven, were in the circle, or if you free them doesn't matter Grace wants revenge for lover boy decimus. When Alain used blood magic to free the hostage i thought 'Not you too!  .

Alain sided with Ser Thrask because he was getting raped by a templar, which he admits to in Act II and implies in Act III's Best Served Cold as his reason for using blood magic and working with the mages and templars to see Knight-Commander Meredith removed from power.

louise101 wrote...

Bethany and Cullen were the only 2 you could trust. Even Thrasks daughter, she had such an innocent voice i wanted to get in and kill the mercenaries then 'Poof'. 

Cullen thinks mages shouldn't be treated like people and dismisses them as weapons, and he took Bethany from her home.

[moilami]

louise101 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Anders incited a war, that was his intent, and got one. He said himself 'Im starting a war'.

And he's an apostate, who Meredith proceeded to almost entirely ignore after she called the Right of Annulment.

louise101 wrote...

Meredith was off her rocker of course she would scream annulment, but, would a sane Gregior have declared it? Everyone in the city was killing eachother thats what we were given.

Mages and templars were fighting because the Right of Annulment was invoked.

louise101 wrote...

We didn't know if the mages were corrupt in the gallows or not. My first playthrough i sided with mages but Orsino at the end was a big let down.

Hawke was left to clean up the mess either way.

Exactly, Hawke doesn't know whether the mages and apprentices in the Gallows are good or bad. The issue is it doesn't even become an dilemma about the mages and apprentices because Meredith has been hijacked by an evil Macguffin and Orsino needs to continue the trend of DA2 recycling by becoming the GoA Harvester, even when it makes absolutely no sense for him to do so. The most exposure Hawke has to Circle mages is Orsino and Bethany.

There was also the 3 you had to chase down. The elf blood mage killing his wife made me cringe. All we know is they were around, and if Orsino was one then by association it puts the other mages under threat whether its right or wrong. Grace and Alain although escaped from starkhaven, were in the circle, or if you free them doesn't matter Grace wants revenge for lover boy decimus. When Alain used blood magic to free the hostage i thought 'Not you too!  . Bethany and Cullen were the only 2 you could trust. Even Thrasks daughter, she had such an innocent voice i wanted to get in and kill the mercenaries then 'Poof'. 

Why so emo? Talking about bubbles, are blood mages only people who kill their spouses? And one blood mage killed his spouse means all mages will do that? Do you go as emo if you hear a carpenter killed his spouse?

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Whoa there, Turbo. How does clarifying a difference in view on Meredith's rationale equate to me putting my faith and trust in her?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never actually said you did. All I did was ask whether anything Meredith says can be taken seriously when she later accuses Cullen and other templars of being under the influence of blood magic for thinking she's wrong.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Whoa there, Turbo. How does clarifying a difference in view on Meredith's rationale equate to me putting my faith and trust in her?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never actually said you did. All I did was ask whether anything Meredith says can be taken seriously when she later accuses Cullen and other templars of being under the influence of blood magic for thinking she's wrong.

I have trouble taking the plot serious, even more so obviously insane characters.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Whoa there, Turbo. How does clarifying a difference in view on Meredith's rationale equate to me putting my faith and trust in her?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never actually said you did. All I did was ask whether anything Meredith says can be taken seriously when she later accuses Cullen and other templars of being under the influence of blood magic for thinking she's wrong.

If you don't think what she says can be taken seriously, why are you taking her seriously when she says that the ONE AND ONLY reason you believe she is calling for the Right of Annulment is because of Anders' actions? 

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If you don't think what she says can be taken seriously, why are you taking her seriously when she says that the ONE AND ONLY reason you believe she is calling for the Right of Annulment is because of Anders' actions? 

Because Meredith states it as her reason for calling the Right of Annulment. I don't see why she would hold back when she's openly threatened Bethany in the past in order to force Hawke to do her bidding.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If you don't think what she says can be taken seriously, why are you taking her seriously when she says that the ONE AND ONLY reason you believe she is calling for the Right of Annulment is because of Anders' actions? 

Because Meredith states it as her reason for calling the Right of Annulment. I don't see why she would hold back when she's openly threatened Bethany in the past in order to force Hawke to do her bidding.

Are you saying that we should take what Meredith says seriously, but only when convenient for you to do so? 

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If you don't think what she says can be taken seriously, why are you taking her seriously when she says that the ONE AND ONLY reason you believe she is calling for the Right of Annulment is because of Anders' actions? 

Because Meredith states it as her reason for calling the Right of Annulment. I don't see why she would hold back when she's openly threatened Bethany in the past in order to force Hawke to do her bidding.

Meredith wanted to annull the circle before. The Grand Cleric refused so she sent for the Divine to give her the go. The death of Elthina played her in the cards, and she probably would have applauded Anders if it wouldn't have blown her cover as a sane person.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 avril 2011 - 09:45 .

[Benchmark]

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Not exactly a spur of the moment easy decision. If he had been there when she invoked it and killed her.. that would have been great, the hero angle and all that but it proved at least, cullens loyalty to the order (not Meredith) which was maybe needed after others going rogue.  If then cullen and everyone else went to clear out the tower he would, i'd imagine have cleared it and not slaughtered everyone. Happy ending but stories aren't sunshine and bunnies, and bioware like putting dark angles into stories.

Oh bolloxs.  This isn't a dark or grey decision. It's an evil one.  Meredith from her own clear insanity (it was clear even before we saw the idol) is ording genocide.  Legal or not, it's evil and there is NO grey or quibble about it.

You either support genocide or you do not.  All other questions are irrelevant next to the scope of that one and it's NOT a grey choice.

-Polaris

It is not a grey choice. You are either morally responsible or you are not. You either make the choices that protect the population from the most unstable element or you choose to vote for anarchy and bloodshed. If you choose the mage ending you effectively free a squadron of blood mages and demonologists into the population and promote the escape of fade creatures into the physical realm. Then you support creating a nationwide bloodbath that will result in repeated mage atrocities.

If you insist on using false arguments and ignoring all evidence that doesn't let you scream "bad, bad dog!", then lets actually investigate your "moral" choice.

1. The population of the Kirkwall circle is made up mainly of blood mages and maleficar. In fact, the population of mages in Thedas is significantly skewed toward being blood mages and demonologists.

Evidence in support - A sample count of all mages encountered in DA2. Sample of possible party members, at best 2 of 4 are blood mages or abominations. At worst 3 of 4 are. Sample of non party mages encountered. Of all non party mages met a total of 2 in the entirety of DA2 do not turn to blood magic or consort with demons. 1. Ella- is an escapee and never casts magic so cannot be fully determined if she is a blood mage. 2. DeLauncet- is an escapee who claims blood magic then conveniently has a case of complete idiocy.

Evidence to debunk - None. Morally irresponsible players will handwave this as a "game" bias, or a "developer" plot, in order to support their own agendas. They will insist that you need to see yet "more" mages and they promise these mages will be different from the experienced sample.

2. The Champion releases all of the blood mages and demonologists that were being held in the Gallows onto the population in general if he chooses the mage path. This allows them to foment rebellion throughout Thedas resulting in massive loss of life.

Evidence in support- End game dialogue states that the mages spread out through Thedas and bring word to the other circles. Since the great majority of mages in Kirkwall were blood mages and demonologists, see point 1, this would result in massive increase in demon and blood magic related deaths among the general populace.

Evidence to debunk - None. End game dialogue does not mention The Champion taking any steps to contain or eliminate blood mages that infested the circle at Kirkwall. Despite the fact that The Champion witnessed the presence of numerous acts of blood magic and demons infesting the Gallows. Even to the point the (s)he has to fight his way through demons to exit.

3. Mages represent a true threat to the people of Thedas if left unchecked. Normal individuals, and even unprepared Templars, have no defense against mages. Mages ability to avoid possession and control by demons is frighteningly unclear.

Evidence to support- In game experience and witness of multiple results of magic. Any NPC in contention with a mage almost died in every case. Huon's wife was mind controlled against her will and unable to resist. Emeric, a Templar, died almost instantly when faced by a demon. Cullen, a Templar, would have died to Wilmod without the aid of The Champion. Kerran and his friends, Templar recruits, were mind controlled by a blood mage and implanted with demons against their will. Qunari assault force, experienced warriors, nearly wiped out by a single mage (Orsino) and decide to use their entire force to handle the threat. This is even though Orsino doesn't intend to fight.

Evidence to debunk- None. Only well prepared forces of Templars or The Champion ever have any success at defeating mages in the entire game. Even a lone untrained girl mage, that was captured by dishonest slavers, turns into an abomination and requires The Champion to defeat it.

4. Average Templars have a much higher moral/immoral ratio than a similar selection of mages. They also do not represent an unusual threat to the population as a whole.

Evidence to support- Of the Templars encountered, 3 are guilty of ordering or committing offenses that are considered universally illegal or immoral. Keras, Alrik, Random Templar Lt. Keras- possible rape or at least a complete mad dog. Alrik- crazy experimentation. Random Templar Lt- torture of a civilian. All three events were based on heresay as evidence, but The Champion could still feel confident that they are true. Meredith will not be listed in this group as she was actually never in an illegal position and her mental instability makes morality difficult to judge. Every other Templar in the game fulfills their duties as a Templar and do not show any indication of moral lack. Notable NPCs, Emeric, Keran, Cullen, Thrask, Emeric's aid, Keran's 3 friends, the old investigator if you frame the Templar, the Templar investigator you frame (described as incorruptible), every Templar trying to join the resistance to improve mages treatment, even Samson (ex Templar removed for helping a mage).

Evidence to debunk- None. Only the above samples are witnessed. All other Templars are seen performing their normal duties or following the commands of their commanders. Even the extra Templars accompanying Alrik and Random Templar Lt are chasing escaped mages or apostates. No other in game evidence other than gossip or heresay is available. Meredith can possibly be added to the list of immoral Templars raising the count to 4.

Congratulations on releasing a new Hell upon Thedas. You have just completed the Mage Choice of DA2!!

The only moral choice is to join Meredith, contain the mages that you know (see point 1) are corrupted. Convince Cullen to spare mages that he feels have a high enough chance of being uncorrupted. Eliminate all blood mages. Find and protect your 1 and only non blood/abomination mage party member. Remove Meredith from command and replace her with a more moderate commander if she resists. You know more moderate Templars are available from point 4.

OH WOW, all of these choices are possible if you follow the Templar path. In fact, you can follow the Templar path and still kill every single example of immoral Templars. In essence you can clean up both groups!!!

The only reason you would argue that this isn't the most moral choice is if you are willing to dishonestly try and handwave all of the choices The Champion makes during the Templar path.

"Oh you chose to spare innocent mages, that didn't happen even though you just went through 5 min of dialogue saying it did. In fact, let me show you this quote that is completely unrelated to Kirkwall from a non-ingame experience source. It doesn't mention Kirkwall, but if I lie to you hard enough, I can convince you it pertains to it to win my side of the argument!"

Congratulations!!! You are lacking morals outside of a game environment because you want to prove someone else lacks them inside!! You have just finished DA2, the forum returns!!

Modifié par Benchmark, 21 avril 2011 - 11:06 .

[AlexXIV]

What I really can't get over, there were the 5 most powerful people of Kirkwall at the spot after Elthina died. Hawke, Aveline, Meredith, Cullen and Orsino. And the insane gets through with her Annullment while the 'sane' either agree with her or have to oppose her. And on top of it only the insane thinks it is a good idea, while even her second Cullen thinks it is an exaggerated action. Ah well this is always the same discussion and it will never make more sense unless they rewrite it. Which they won't.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 avril 2011 - 09:55 .

[ajm317]

Benchmark wrote...

1. The population of the Kirkwall circle is made up mainly of blood mages and maleficar. In fact, the population of mages in Thedas is significantly skewed toward being blood mages and demonologists.


Evidence in support - A sample count of all mages encountered in DA2. Sample of possible party members, at best 2 of 4 are blood mages or abominations. At worst 3 of 4 are. Sample of non party mages encountered. Of all non party mages met a total of 2 in the entirety of DA2 do not turn to blood magic or consort with demons. 1. Ella- is an escapee and never casts magic so cannot be fully determined if she is a blood mage. 2. DeLauncet- is an escapee who claims blood magic then conveniently has a case of complete idiocy.

Evidence to debunk - None. Morally irresponsible players will handwave this as a "game" bias, or a "developer" plot, in order to support their own agendas. They will insist that you need to see yet "more" mages and they promise these mages will be different from the experienced sample.

Ok, now while I don't necessarily disagree that joining the Templars is defensible this is a bit silly.  If we follow this to its logical conclusion 75% of all the people in Thedas are combatants of some kind, be they soldiers or bandits or blood mages or whatever.  No one in Thedas is a farmer, although a couple used to be.  Less than 5% of all people living in Thedas are children.  The death rate in Thedas is over 60% per year.

That's not a functional society.

Game developers have limited resources.  They only show you people who are relevant to the game itself.  You don't need to see farmers, or children, or chefs, so they don't show them to you.  That doesn't mean they aren't there.

Likewise most of the mages you meet are rotten because most of the people you meet are rotten.  The reason for this is that it's a combat oriented game.  Most people you meet you end up sticking a sword into at some point.  Most mages you meet are apostates you were told to track down.

We don't really know, as players, what % of the mages are blood mages.

Modifié par ajm317, 21 avril 2011 - 10:05 .

[Lewie]

moilami wrote...

louise101 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Anders incited a war, that was his intent, and got one. He said himself 'Im starting a war'.

And he's an apostate, who Meredith proceeded to almost entirely ignore after she called the Right of Annulment.

louise101 wrote...

Meredith was off her rocker of course she would scream annulment, but, would a sane Gregior have declared it? Everyone in the city was killing eachother thats what we were given.

Mages and templars were fighting because the Right of Annulment was invoked.

louise101 wrote...

We didn't know if the mages were corrupt in the gallows or not. My first playthrough i sided with mages but Orsino at the end was a big let down.

Hawke was left to clean up the mess either way.

Exactly, Hawke doesn't know whether the mages and apprentices in the Gallows are good or bad. The issue is it doesn't even become an dilemma about the mages and apprentices because Meredith has been hijacked by an evil Macguffin and Orsino needs to continue the trend of DA2 recycling by becoming the GoA Harvester, even when it makes absolutely no sense for him to do so. The most exposure Hawke has to Circle mages is Orsino and Bethany.

There was also the 3 you had to chase down. The elf blood mage killing his wife made me cringe. All we know is they were around, and if Orsino was one then by association it puts the other mages under threat whether its right or wrong. Grace and Alain although escaped from starkhaven, were in the circle, or if you free them doesn't matter Grace wants revenge for lover boy decimus. When Alain used blood magic to free the hostage i thought 'Not you too!  . Bethany and Cullen were the only 2 you could trust. Even Thrasks daughter, she had such an innocent voice i wanted to get in and kill the mercenaries then 'Poof'. 

Why so emo? Talking about bubbles, are blood mages only people who kill their spouses? And one blood mage killed his spouse means all mages will do that? Do you go as emo if you hear a carpenter killed his spouse?

Emo? Don't even go there. He slew her in front of me i would rather have saved her and gutted him. Im starting to wonder if you actually support mages or blood magic.

The Right of Annulment was created in the first place because ONE abomination went riot. Mad or not any KC would invoke it. If cullen knew that blood mages were infecting templars with demons, and you killed meredith and it fell to him, maybe he would have invoked it. Why? Maybe because thats the law in Thedas and he would have been obliged to follow it. Its not the law now or should be compared to today.

[Benchmark]

ajm317 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

1. The population of the Kirkwall circle is made up mainly of blood mages and maleficar. In fact, the population of mages in Thedas is significantly skewed toward being blood mages and demonologists.


Evidence in support - A sample count of all mages encountered in DA2. Sample of possible party members, at best 2 of 4 are blood mages or abominations. At worst 3 of 4 are. Sample of non party mages encountered. Of all non party mages met a total of 2 in the entirety of DA2 do not turn to blood magic or consort with demons. 1. Ella- is an escapee and never casts magic so cannot be fully determined if she is a blood mage. 2. DeLauncet- is an escapee who claims blood magic then conveniently has a case of complete idiocy.

Evidence to debunk - None. Morally irresponsible players will handwave this as a "game" bias, or a "developer" plot, in order to support their own agendas. They will insist that you need to see yet "more" mages and they promise these mages will be different from the experienced sample.

Ok, now while I don't necessarily disagree that joining the Templars is defensible this is a bit silly.  If we follow this to its logical conclusion 75% of all the people in Thedas are combatants of some kind, be they soldiers or bandits or blood mages or whatever.  No one in Thedas is a farmer, although a couple used to be.  Less than 5% of all people living in Thedas are children.  The death rate in Thedas is over 60% per year.

That's not a functional society.

Game developers have limited resources.  They only show you people who are relevant to the game itself.  You don't need to see farmers, or children, or chefs, so they don't show them to you.  That doesn't mean they aren't there.

Likewise most of the mages you meet are rotten because most of the people you meet are rotten.  The reason for this is that it's a combat oriented game.  Most people you meet you end up sticking a sword into at some point.  Most mages you meet are apostates you were told to track down.

We don't really know, as players, what % of the mages are blood mages.

Haha, if you didn't notice I was going WAAAAAAYYY over the top. But again, you are using out of game sources for this and some logic that lets you "suspend disbelief". This is a technique that pro-mage arguers seem only willing to do if it suits their own purposes. And if they don't want to play nice, I don't have to either. And I have a lot more actual in game evidence.

I would actually agree with your assessment, but I could argue that NPCs in all of the town settings are merely representative of a much larger population, and that during daylight hours non combatants outnumber anyone else by far. Of course night time, only has beggars or enemies. And warehouses only have secret societies...

[ajm317]

Benchmark wrote...
Haha, if you didn't notice I was going WAAAAAAYYY over the top.

Ah, sorry, missed that.

But again, you are using out of game sources for this and some logic that lets you "suspend disbelief". This is a technique that pro-mage arguers seem only willing to do if it suits their own purposes. And if they don't want to play nice, I don't have to either. And I have a lot more actual in game evidence.

I would actually agree with your assessment, but I could argue that NPCs in all of the town settings are merely representative of a much larger population, and that during daylight hours non combatants outnumber anyone else by far. Of course night time, only has beggars or enemies. And warehouses only have secret societies...

All right.  I see your point now.

[IanPolaris]

Ajm,

The problem is the mages we see as hostile combatants are almost certainly NOT a vaid representative sample of mages any more than the bandits we face in the kirkwall streets are a representative sample of Kirkwall's population either.

The big problem is that it's a self-selecting sample. By fighting Hawke (or by engaging in baditry) they are already criminals. That means that the chance that they'd do further criminal actions (like bloodmagic) will be (very) disporportionately high.

It would be like making conclusions about African Americans based on a sampling of African Americans out of Federal Prison.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

What the pro-people are pointing out is that we never see a good representative sample of mages (and even the Devs have admitted painting a one-sided and skewed picture of mages) and yet we are supposed to condemn ALL of them based on the actions and word of a woman who is clearly a lunatic.

This isn't a grey issue. Siding with the Templars is fundamentally morally indefensible.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because Meredith states it as her reason for calling the Right of Annulment. I don't see why she would hold back when she's openly threatened Bethany in the past in order to force Hawke to do her bidding.

Are you saying that we should take what Meredith says seriously, but only when convenient for you to do so? 

Are you trolling now? I call her perception of reality into question because she's clearly insane, I don't call into doubt her desire to kill mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wether or not you condemn all the mages is irrelevant. If you side with them, you are assisting Blood Mages, hiding within their ranks. You are indirectly assting a bunch of Blood Mages in escaping the tower, just by having some sort of personal crusade to defend the innocent, or some such nonsense.
By siding with the Templars, you eradicate those elements, at the cost of the innocent, which is regretable, but there is no room for finese during an annulment.

[scpulley]

Absolutely nothing beyond a few extra quest. You still poof at the end of the game with no explination of the gap in time. Basically, you get to sit back and let the game play for you because what you the player input means nothing. It railroaded you so if you like that, you'll think the DA 2 is the greatest game ever.

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ajm,

The problem is the mages we see as hostile combatants are almost certainly NOT a vaid representative sample of mages any more than the bandits we face in the kirkwall streets are a representative sample of Kirkwall's population either.

The big problem is that it's a self-selecting sample. By fighting Hawke (or by engaging in baditry) they are already criminals. That means that the chance that they'd do further criminal actions (like bloodmagic) will be (very) disporportionately high.

It would be like making conclusions about African Americans based on a sampling of African Americans out of Federal Prison.

-Polaris

The problem is not what they might do, its simply that they are highly susceptible to demon possession. Which in turn will slaughter everything in sight. Once a mage has turned there is no mercy, no restraint, nothing. They are gone. Killing a blood mage is killing a demon, not a true mage, so if you give the demons a hint of mercy by setting them loose how does that help the true mages, who are strong and will not resort to blood magic?

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

It is not a grey choice. You are either morally responsible or you are not. You either make the choices that protect the population from the most unstable element or you choose to vote for anarchy and bloodshed.[/quote]
 
Many of us do. We consider that unstable element to be Meredith, who is driven insane by the Lyrium Idol, and who has ordered the execution of every mage in the Circle of Magi because the apostate Anders killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

If you choose the mage ending you effectively free a squadron of blood mages and demonologists into the population and promote the escape of fade creatures into the physical realm. [/quote]

Feel free to stop providing unproven speculation as fact. All we know is that the men, women, and children of the Circle of Kirkwall are innocent of the crime Anders committed.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

Then you support creating a nationwide bloodbath that will result in repeated mage atrocities. [/quote]

I'd consider the murder of people innocent of Ander's crime an atrocity.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

1. The population of the Kirkwall circle is made up mainly of blood mages and maleficar. In fact, the population of mages in Thedas is significantly skewed toward being blood mages and demonologists.
[/quote]

There's no evidence this is factually accurate as we never actually meet the denizens of the Gallows.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

Evidence in support - A sample count of all mages encountered in DA2. Sample of possible party members, at best 2 of 4 are blood mages or abominations. At worst 3 of 4 are. Sample of non party mages encountered. Of all non party mages met a total of 2 in the entirety of DA2 do not turn to blood magic or consort with demons. 1. Ella- is an escapee and never casts magic so cannot be fully determined if she is a blood mage. 2. DeLauncet- is an escapee who claims blood magic then conveniently has a case of complete idiocy. [/quote]

Hawke never meets all the mages and apprentices who are living in the Gallows, he encounters mage antagonists who are outside of the Gallows - much in the same way he encounters many dwarven antagonists who are members of the carta. Mages outside of the Gallows don't really tell us what mages inside the Gallows are like.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

2. The Champion releases all of the blood mages and demonologists that were being held in the Gallows onto the population in general if he chooses the mage path. This allows them to foment rebellion throughout Thedas resulting in massive loss of life.
[/quote]

Again, you are providing baseless speculation as fact. Hawke has no information to ascertain what the mages and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall are actually like. Absense of evidence isn't evidence.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

Evidence in support- End game dialogue states that the mages spread out through Thedas and bring word to the other circles. Since the great majority of mages in Kirkwall were blood mages and demonologists, see point 1, this would result in massive increase in demon and blood magic related deaths among the general populace. [/quote]

More baseless speculation on your part, since there's no evidence the mages and apprentices freed were blood mages or into demonology. Also, you're talking about mages who are survivors of mass executions for a crime that Anders committed.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

3. Mages represent a true threat to the people of Thedas if left unchecked. Normal individuals, and even unprepared Templars, have no defense against mages. Mages ability to avoid possession and control by demons is frighteningly unclear.
[/quote]

Which explains the free mages in the kingdom of Rivain, the Dalish clans, the Chasind Wilders, and the Avaar tribes.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

Evidence to support- In game experience and witness of multiple results of magic. Any NPC in contention with a mage almost died in every case. Huon's wife was mind controlled against her will and unable to resist. Emeric, a Templar, died almost instantly when faced by a demon. Cullen, a Templar, would have died to Wilmod without the aid of The Champion. Kerran and his friends, Templar recruits, were mind controlled by a blood mage and implanted with demons against their will. [/quote]

Huon was also sane when he was living in the Alienage, which calls into question what happened to drive him into insanity in the Gallows, as the same is true of the Ferelden Circle mage Evelina. Also, Emeric is an apostate who has no known connection to the Circle of Kirkwall. And we see how templars are able to establish rule over the people of Kirkwall through Knight-Commander Meredith, who becomes the de facto Viscount while mages are being raped and illegally made tranquil.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

4. Average Templars have a much higher moral/immoral ratio than a similar selection of mages. They also do not represent an unusual threat to the population as a whole.
[/quote]

This is an asinine argument. Hawke's selective dealings with a fraction of the populace is no basis to determine how everyone is.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

The only moral choice is to join Meredith, contain the mages that you know (see point 1) are corrupted. Convince Cullen to spare mages that he feels have a high enough chance of being uncorrupted. Eliminate all blood mages. Find and protect your 1 and only non blood/abomination mage party member. Remove Meredith from command and replace her with a more moderate commander if she resists. You know more moderate Templars are available from point 4. [/quote]

You putting forth your speculation as fact doesn't make genocide a compelling argument against men, women, and children who are innocent of Anders' actions.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

OH WOW, all of these choices are possible if you follow the Templar path. In fact, you can follow the Templar path and still kill every single example of immoral Templars. In essence you can clean up both groups!!! [/quote]

You forgot the murder of men, women, and children who didn't blow up the Chantry that happens because of Knight-Commander Meredith.

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

The only reason you would argue that this isn't the most moral choice is if you are willing to dishonestly try and handwave all of the choices The Champion makes during the Templar path. [/quote]

You mean the slaughter of mages who aren't responsible for Anders' actions?

[quote]Benchmark wrote...

"Oh you chose to spare innocent mages, that didn't happen even though you just went through 5 min of dialogue saying it did. In fact, let me show you this quote that is completely unrelated to Kirkwal from a non-ingame experience source. It doesn't mention Kirkwal, but if I lie to you hard enough, I can convince you it pertains to it to win my side of the argument!" [/quote]

The mages are innocent of what Anders did. He attacked the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

[EmperorSahlertz]

To be fair, a Blood Mage is not neccesarily possessed by a demon, yet anyway. They are however using magic which is highly suspect though. So yeah, just kill the Blood Mages and be done with it.

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 21 avril 2011 - 11:24 .