945 réponses à ce sujet

[Benchmark]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ajm,

The problem is the mages we see as hostile combatants are almost certainly NOT a vaid representative sample of mages any more than the bandits we face in the kirkwall streets are a representative sample of Kirkwall's population either.

The big problem is that it's a self-selecting sample. By fighting Hawke (or by engaging in baditry) they are already criminals. That means that the chance that they'd do further criminal actions (like bloodmagic) will be (very) disporportionately high.

It would be like making conclusions about African Americans based on a sampling of African Americans out of Federal Prison.

-Polaris

Look, we have more handwaving and dishonest comparisons! Congratulations!

You can't compare Circles to Federal Prisons, but congratulations on trying! circles are more like monasteries during the Middle Ages. Dangerous royalty that noone wanted to kill outright were forced into the monasterie as nuns or brothers so they could be safely prevented from starting wars of succession. This doesn't mean that a skewed number of minor nobles in monasteries suddenly turned to devil worship.

Thanks for trying to win your argument with politically sensitive issues and buzzwords though, they really make you seem more right!!!

IanPolaris wrote...

What the pro-people are pointing out is that we never see a good representative sample of mages (and even the Devs have admitted painting a one-sided and skewed picture of mages) and yet we are supposed to condemn ALL of them based on the actions and word of a woman who is clearly a lunatic.

This isn't a grey issue. Siding with the Templars is fundamentally morally indefensible.

-Polaris

Yay! Look at this, once again a pro-mage gets to handwave the actual experiences of Hawke and "suspend disbelief", so they can avoid seeing mages as dangerous. And this allows them a double whammy of calling pro-templars morally indefensible!!! Sorry, Devs skewed the representation because they wanted to impart the extreme dangers of magic and knew they had to beat the Hogwarts fanclubs over the head with that fact or it wouldn't stick. It isn't the representation that is skewed, it is the fact that you refuse to interpret the message they are trying to make. Gues we can't "suspend disbelief" this time guys, it doesn't support my side of the argument!!! Congratulations!!

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are you trolling now? I call her perception of reality into question because she's clearly insane, I don't call into doubt her desire to kill mages.

No. I am trying to clarify. See, you said this:

LobselVith8 wrote...

All I did was ask whether anything Meredith says can be taken seriously when she later accuses Cullen and other templars of being under the influence of blood magic for thinking she's wrong.

So I asked this:

If you don't think what she says can be taken seriously, why are you taking her seriously when she says that the ONE AND ONLY reason you believe she is calling for the Right of Annulment is because of Anders' actions?

And you answered with this:

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because Meredith states it as her reason for calling the Right of Annulment. I don't see why she would hold back when she's openly threatened Bethany in the past in order to force Hawke to do her bidding.

Nowhere in here do I see anything that indicates you are not taking what Meredith says seriously.

From this, I conclude that you take some of what Meredith says seriously, which you earlier said should not be taken seriously. Since these are conflicting viewpoints both stated by you, I was asking for clarification.

Should what Meredith says be taken seriously or not?

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

But again, you are using out of game sources for this and some logic that lets you "suspend disbelief". This is a technique that pro-mage arguers seem only willing to do if it suits their own purposes.

 
You mean addressing that we know nothing about what the mages inside the Gallows are actually like, and address that Meredith is calling the Right of Annulment because Anders blew up the Chantry and killed every person inside?

Benchmark wrote...

And if they don't want to play nice, I don't have to either. And I have a lot more actual in game evidence.

You mean you have more baseless speculation to put invent and pretend it's fact?

Benchmark wrote...

I would actually agree with your assessment, but I could argue that NPCs in all of the town settings are merely representative of a much larger population, and that during daylight hours non combatants outnumber anyone else by far. Of course night time, only has beggars or enemies. And warehouses only have secret societies...

The problem is you're still comparing what mages are like inside the Gallows on the actions of mages we see outside of the Gallows. Again, absense of evidence about the mages and apprentices in the Gallows isn't evidence.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The problem is you're still comparing what mages are like inside the Gallows on the actions of mages we see outside of the Gallows. Again, absense of evidence about the mages and apprentices in the Gallows isn't evidence.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. (NSFW language).

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 21 avril 2011 - 11:38 .

[Ryzaki]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The problem is you're still comparing what mages are like inside the Gallows on the actions of mages we see outside of the Gallows. Again, absense of evidence about the mages and apprentices in the Gallows isn't evidence.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You just linked to a Boondocks clip. 

I love you forever. <3

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

They're outside of the Gallows. It doesn't tell us anything about the Circle mages and apprentices who are living inside of the Gallows and not engaging in such activities.

[Lewie]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To be fair, a Blood Mage is not neccesarily possessed by a demon, yet anyway. They are however using magic which is highly suspect though. So yeah, just kill the Blood Mages and be done with it.

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

Of course not, making a deal with a demon at first is fine. It got Marathari and the whole elf clan killed, or if you take responsibility you leave a demon possessed keeper. Sure, why not. 

Lets take chances that the demons will back off when it suits us. 

Modifié par louise101, 21 avril 2011 - 11:43 .

[TJPags]

Oh, this is still going on?

How nice.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

They're outside of the Gallows. It doesn't tell us anything about the Circle mages and apprentices who are living inside of the Gallows and not engaging in such activities.

The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.

[Benchmark]

LobselVith8 wrote...


You putting forth your speculation as fact doesn't make genocide a compelling argument against men, women, and children who are innocent of Anders' actions.

You forgot the murder of men, women, and children who didn't blow up the Chantry that happens because of Knight-Commander Meredith.


You mean the slaughter of mages who aren't responsible for Anders' actions?


The mages are innocent of what Anders did. He attacked the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

I didn't bother reading half of that reply, quit chopping it up and making it impossible for me to read easily. You can write your reply in a coherent paragraph and I promise that I have a reading comprehension level high enough to follow your intent.

I saved these few choice quotes that caught my eye though.

Congratulations on bringing up Ander's and making no sense and arguing in a third unrelated direction. And nice way to try and claim I am "speculating" despite the fact that I use all in game actual experience as reference. I like how you handwave the in game experience as not being a true sample just for your arguments. But, then later you try and talk about Huon and implicate the circle for his insanity. Something you have 0 in game evidence for. Congratulations on doing exactly what I said pro-mage supporters would do!!!

Congratulations on claiming the Templar path requires the slaughter of women and children despite the fact that when Hawke reaches ground zero he can do what any person would, And Choose For Himself once he sees the mages.

Look you used the "slaughter" word until it was burnt up, and it never made any sense why you were. But hey it sounds scary! And you mentioned Ander's again! Someone I could care less about and never once referenced except as a party member that added to the abomination count. But I guess if we can steer this argument to make it seem like I want an RoA because of what Anders did...HEY YOU CAN WIN!!!

Modifié par Benchmark, 21 avril 2011 - 11:59 .

[Benchmark]

TJPags wrote...

Oh, this is still going on?

How nice.

I decided to become an *$$.
 
Sorry, I can stop soon.

Ajm was reasonable in their response, and agreed to see a different side even if they chose against it. I have 0 problems with that.

I would love some real interesting points and debates, just not the same insulting bs.

Modifié par Benchmark, 21 avril 2011 - 11:55 .

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

No. I am trying to clarify.

So you tried to clarify an issue by being condescending to me?

hoorayforicecream wrote...

See, you said this:

LobselVith8 wrote...

All I did was ask whether anything Meredith says can be taken seriously when she later accuses Cullen and other templars of being under the influence of blood magic for thinking she's wrong.

So I asked this:

If you don't think what she says can be taken seriously, why are you taking her seriously when she says that the ONE AND ONLY reason you believe she is calling for the Right of Annulment is because of Anders' actions?

Because I was addressing the difference between her perception of reality and what she expressly addressed as her intent. When she wants to kill Hawke, I don't doubt her intentions. When she thinks Cullen and the other templars are under the influence of blood magic because they disagree with her course of actions, I call into doubt her perception of reality. Do you want to continue arguing semantics here?

[TJPags]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

They're outside of the Gallows. It doesn't tell us anything about the Circle mages and apprentices who are living inside of the Gallows and not engaging in such activities.

The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.

This argument doesn't sway pro-mage people.  They keep harping on all the mages we don't see.

Pro-mage people are blind to what happens in the game, preferring to make their decisions based on things none of us have any way of knowing about.  And somehow, this information that we don't see, which is pure spculation on all our parts, is more important than what we actually see.

[TJPags]

Benchmark wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Oh, this is still going on?

How nice.

I decided to become an *$$.
 
Sorry, I can stop soon.

Ajm was reasonable in their response, and agreed to see a different side even if they chose against it. I have 0 problems with that.

I would love some real interesting points and debates, just not the same insulting bs.

Hey, don't stop just for me.  I love good, real debate.

You know, I can fully relate to someone who says they sided with the mages because they thought Meredith's reason behind the RoA was wrong, or because they wanted to save their sister, or because they just plain felt the RoA was too drastic.

And I'd love to debate, really debate, using information we see in game, whether Meredith was right or wrong, whether the idol made her do it, or even just whether Circles are the best way to do things.

What gets me every time is the constant statements of opinion or fanfic as fact, the overblown hyperbole, and the insistence that what we never see is more important or somehow more accurate than what we do see.

[EmperorSahlertz]

TJPags wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

They're outside of the Gallows. It doesn't tell us anything about the Circle mages and apprentices who are living inside of the Gallows and not engaging in such activities.

The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.

This argument doesn't sway pro-mage people.  They keep harping on all the mages we don't see.

Pro-mage people are blind to what happens in the game, preferring to make their decisions based on things none of us have any way of knowing about.  And somehow, this information that we don't see, which is pure spculation on all our parts, is more important than what we actually see.

I know... I guess I just keep trying, hoping for them to at some point show a sense of logical deduction.

[Lewie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

No. I am trying to clarify.

So you tried to clarify an issue by being condescending to me?

hoorayforicecream wrote...

See, you said this:

LobselVith8 wrote...

All I did was ask whether anything Meredith says can be taken seriously when she later accuses Cullen and other templars of being under the influence of blood magic for thinking she's wrong.

So I asked this:

If you don't think what she says can be taken seriously, why are you taking her seriously when she says that the ONE AND ONLY reason you believe she is calling for the Right of Annulment is because of Anders' actions?

Because I was addressing the difference between her perception of reality and what she expressly addressed as her intent. When she wants to kill Hawke, I don't doubt her intentions. When she thinks Cullen and the other templars are under the influence of blood magic because they disagree with her course of actions, I call into doubt her perception of reality. Do you want to continue arguing semantics here?

Her actions are questionable obviously, but as i said if cullen was left with the decision he would probably have to invoke it, given the circumstances. Even if he killed Meredith because he realised she was a fruit loop, he still knew templars were being infected with demons. Which again is a guess as to how many.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So you tried to clarify an issue by being condescending to me?

That's one interpretation. Not one I'd agree with necessarily, but you're free to think so.

Because I was addressing the difference between her perception of reality and what she expressly addressed as her intent. When she wants to kill Hawke, I don't doubt her intentions. When she thinks Cullen and the other templars are under the influence of blood magic because they disagree with her course of actions, I call into doubt her perception of reality. Do you want to continue arguing semantics here?

Six of one, half-dozen of another. You're deciding what to take seriously when Meredith says something. I get it. But then you're presenting that as fact to support your argument, and that's disingenuous. It's your opinion. Present it as such and you'd have a lot fewer arguments.

[Benchmark]

TJPags wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

They're outside of the Gallows. It doesn't tell us anything about the Circle mages and apprentices who are living inside of the Gallows and not engaging in such activities.

The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.

This argument doesn't sway pro-mage people.  They keep harping on all the mages we don't see.

Pro-mage people are blind to what happens in the game, preferring to make their decisions based on things none of us have any way of knowing about.  And somehow, this information that we don't see, which is pure spculation on all our parts, is more important than what we actually see.

Further, the information we don't see is important enough to brand us as morally indefensible if we decide to act on the information that we do see.

Modifié par Benchmark, 22 avril 2011 - 12:14 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed, it must be us who are grasping at straws..

[TJPags]

Benchmark wrote...

TJPags wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

They're outside of the Gallows. It doesn't tell us anything about the Circle mages and apprentices who are living inside of the Gallows and not engaging in such activities.

The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.

This argument doesn't sway pro-mage people.  They keep harping on all the mages we don't see.

Pro-mage people are blind to what happens in the game, preferring to make their decisions based on things none of us have any way of knowing about.  And somehow, this information that we don't see, which is pure spculation on all our parts, is more important than what we actually see.

Further, the information we don't see is important enough to brand us as morally indefensible if we decide to act on the information that we do see.

true - it's that kind of thing that drives me crazy - constantly telling people who support templars that they are mass murderers, indefensible, morally degenerate, genocidal, gestapo, etc.

Ian mentioned that he would rather let 99 guilty people go free, than kill 1 innocent one.  Valid opinion.  But not everyone thinks that way.  I really wish such an opinon wasn't stated as if it was the only valid one.

[hoorayforicecream]

TJPags wrote...

true - it's that kind of thing that drives me crazy - constantly telling people who support templars that they are mass murderers, indefensible, morally degenerate, genocidal, gestapo, etc.

Ian mentioned that he would rather let 99 guilty people go free, than kill 1 innocent one.  Valid opinion.  But not everyone thinks that way.  I really wish such an opinon wasn't stated as if it was the only valid one.

I get the feeling that most folks who do think that way tend to avoid threads like these. I only popped into this one because I was wondering at the rationale behind some of the stronger opined members arguments. 

[Lewie]

Benchmark wrote...

TJPags wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

They're outside of the Gallows. It doesn't tell us anything about the Circle mages and apprentices who are living inside of the Gallows and not engaging in such activities.

The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.

This argument doesn't sway pro-mage people.  They keep harping on all the mages we don't see.

Pro-mage people are blind to what happens in the game, preferring to make their decisions based on things none of us have any way of knowing about.  And somehow, this information that we don't see, which is pure spculation on all our parts, is more important than what we actually see.

Further, the information we don't see is important enough to brand us as morally indefensible if we decide to act on the information that we do see.

  That last remark deserves a cookie. 

[TJPags]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

TJPags wrote...

true - it's that kind of thing that drives me crazy - constantly telling people who support templars that they are mass murderers, indefensible, morally degenerate, genocidal, gestapo, etc.

Ian mentioned that he would rather let 99 guilty people go free, than kill 1 innocent one.  Valid opinion.  But not everyone thinks that way.  I really wish such an opinon wasn't stated as if it was the only valid one.

I get the feeling that most folks who do think that way tend to avoid threads like these. I only popped into this one because I was wondering at the rationale behind some of the stronger opined members arguments. 

lol - fair enough.  I can give you my rationale in the nutshell:

Kirkwall is lost.  There is a blood mage running the Circle, helping a mass murderer, blood mages running rampant in the streets, and templars who can't control anything - they can't even keep the mages IN the Gallows.  The Kirkwall Circle needs to be Anulled, or at the least, every mage locked up and thorougly tested again.  If that means another harrowing for everyone, so be it.

However, in my first game, I sided with the mages - because Meredith's reasoning at the end was faulty - I refused to go Anull the Circle while she let Anders, an apostate abomination who blew up the Chantry, sit there on his crate with no punishment.

[Benchmark]

TJPags wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

TJPags wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

They're outside of the Gallows. It doesn't tell us anything about the Circle mages and apprentices who are living inside of the Gallows and not engaging in such activities.

The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.

This argument doesn't sway pro-mage people.  They keep harping on all the mages we don't see.

Pro-mage people are blind to what happens in the game, preferring to make their decisions based on things none of us have any way of knowing about.  And somehow, this information that we don't see, which is pure spculation on all our parts, is more important than what we actually see.

Further, the information we don't see is important enough to brand us as morally indefensible if we decide to act on the information that we do see.

true - it's that kind of thing that drives me crazy - constantly telling people who support templars that they are mass murderers, indefensible, morally degenerate, genocidal, gestapo, etc.

Ian mentioned that he would rather let 99 guilty people go free, than kill 1 innocent one.  Valid opinion.  But not everyone thinks that way.  I really wish such an opinon wasn't stated as if it was the only valid one.

I've made both choices. I don't have a real problem with either. There were a lot of reasons to help the circle. Family loyalty to Bethany, and Meredith refusing to listen to me reason with her were my big ones.

When I made the Templar choice I was really pleased with how I was able to influence the ending. Being told I was immoral and none of my choices would matter anyway, then haviing the word genocide rammed down my throat when I had saved all innocent mages I encountered. Well it gets really old, especially when it is all done with such dishonest arguments.

[Benchmark]

louise101 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

TJPags wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lob... If the enemy is labelled "Circle Mage" it does not matter wether they are inside, or outside of the Gallows, it still gives us a sense of how the mages inside the Gallows are, since that is where said enemy will have originated from.

They're outside of the Gallows. It doesn't tell us anything about the Circle mages and apprentices who are living inside of the Gallows and not engaging in such activities.

The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.

This argument doesn't sway pro-mage people.  They keep harping on all the mages we don't see.

Pro-mage people are blind to what happens in the game, preferring to make their decisions based on things none of us have any way of knowing about.  And somehow, this information that we don't see, which is pure spculation on all our parts, is more important than what we actually see.

Further, the information we don't see is important enough to brand us as morally indefensible if we decide to act on the information that we do see.

  That last remark deserves a cookie. 

COOKIE!!!!

Thank you! This has been my life this week...
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