EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.
TJPags wrote...
lol - fair enough. I can give you my rationale in the nutshell:
Kirkwall is lost. There is a blood mage running the Circle, helping a mass murderer, blood mages running rampant in the streets, and templars who can't control anything - they can't even keep the mages IN the Gallows. The Kirkwall Circle needs to be Anulled, or at the least, every mage locked up and thorougly tested again. If that means another harrowing for everyone, so be it.
However, in my first game, I sided with the mages - because Meredith's reasoning at the end was faulty - I refused to go Anull the Circle while she let Anders, an apostate abomination who blew up the Chantry, sit there on his crate with no punishment.
Benchmark wrote...
I didn't bother reading half of that reply, quit chopping it up and making it impossible for me to read easily. You can write your reply in a coherent paragraph and I promise that I have a reading comprehension level high enough to follow your intent.
Benchmark wrote...
Congratulations on bringing up Ander's and making no sense and arguing in a third unrelated direction.
Benchmark wrote...
And nice way to try and claim I am "speculating" despite the fact that I use all in game actual experience as reference.
Benchmark wrote...
I like how you handwave the in game experience as not being a true sample just for your arguments.
Benchmark wrote...
But, then later you try and talk about Huon and implicate the circle for his insanity.
Benchmark wrote...
Something you have 0 in game evidence for. Congratulations on doing exactly what I said pro-mage supporters would do!!!
Benchmark wrote...
Congratulations on claiming the Templar path requires the slaughter of women and children despite the fact that when Hawke reaches ground zero he can do what any person would, And Choose For Himself once he sees the mages.
Benchmark wrote...
Look you used the "slaughter" word until it was burnt up, and it never made any sense why you were. But hey it sounds scary!
Benchmark wrote...
And you mentioned Ander's again! Someone I could care less about and never once referenced except as a party member that added to the abomination count. But I guess if we can steer this argument to make it seem like I want an RoA because of what Anders did...HEY YOU CAN WIN!!!
TJPags wrote...
This argument doesn't sway pro-mage people. They keep harping on all the mages we don't see.
TJPags wrote...
Pro-mage people are blind to what happens in the game, preferring to make their decisions based on things none of us have any way of knowing about. And somehow, this information that we don't see, which is pure spculation on all our parts, is more important than what we actually see.
LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.
That's like comparing all the dwarves in Kirkwall by the actions of the members of the carta. You can't claim that the mages living in the Gallows are the same as the mage antagonists who are outside of the Gallows.
Uhm... How else am I supposed to? I CAN use the Circle Mages we meet as a template as to how the general Circle Mages is. Why would I think that a Circle mage inside the Gallows is vastly different to a Circle mage outside the Gallows?LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.
That's like comparing all the dwarves in Kirkwall by the actions of the members of the carta. You can't claim that the mages living in the Gallows are the same as the mage antagonists who are outside of the Gallows.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I know... I guess I just keep trying, hoping for them to at some point show a sense of logical deduction.
LobselVith8 wrote...
TJPags wrote...
This argument doesn't sway pro-mage people. They keep harping on all the mages we don't see.
That's because we don't actually meet the many mages and apprentices in the Gallows. I don't see any reason to speculate on what they could be like if we're denied an opportunity to make an assessment about what kind of people they are for ourselves.TJPags wrote...
Pro-mage people are blind to what happens in the game, preferring to make their decisions based on things none of us have any way of knowing about. And somehow, this information that we don't see, which is pure spculation on all our parts, is more important than what we actually see.
No, people who don't execute the mages at the end of the storyline have a different opinion than you do. I'm simply not convinced that killing an entire population of people who belong to the Circle of Magi for something that an apostate did is warranted.
TJPags wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
That's like comparing all the dwarves in Kirkwall by the actions of the members of the carta. You can't claim that the mages living in the Gallows are the same as the mage antagonists who are outside of the Gallows.
Didn't someone point out the fallacy of this to you already?
TJPags wrote...
Mages we see are nuts is to all mages being as nuts as Carta members we see being dwarves is to all Carta members being dwarves.
TJPags wrote...
You keep making this comparison and saying it's no good. Tell me, how many mages are there in the Gallows, exactly? How many are blood mages or abominations? And please - provide support for your opinion.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 avril 2011 - 12:51 .
You aren't murdering anyone.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I know... I guess I just keep trying, hoping for them to at some point show a sense of logical deduction.
Some people logically deduce that murdering men, women, and children from the Circle of Kirkwall because an apostate killed Grand Cleric Elthina doesn't make any sense, particularly since these mages and apprentices are innocent of the crime Anders committed. Meredith's claim that the people "will demand blood" doesn't sway me to help her kill the mages. You're welcome to disagree, of course.
hoorayforicecream wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Because I was addressing the difference between her perception of reality and what she expressly addressed as her intent. When she wants to kill Hawke, I don't doubt her intentions. When she thinks Cullen and the other templars are under the influence of blood magic because they disagree with her course of actions, I call into doubt her perception of reality. Do you want to continue arguing semantics here?
Six of one, half-dozen of another. You're deciding what to take seriously when Meredith says something. I get it. But then you're presenting that as fact to support your argument, and that's disingenuous. It's your opinion. Present it as such and you'd have a lot fewer arguments.
hoorayforicecream wrote...
TJPags wrote...
lol - fair enough. I can give you my rationale in the nutshell:
Kirkwall is lost. There is a blood mage running the Circle, helping a mass murderer, blood mages running rampant in the streets, and templars who can't control anything - they can't even keep the mages IN the Gallows. The Kirkwall Circle needs to be Anulled, or at the least, every mage locked up and thorougly tested again. If that means another harrowing for everyone, so be it.
However, in my first game, I sided with the mages - because Meredith's reasoning at the end was faulty - I refused to go Anull the Circle while she let Anders, an apostate abomination who blew up the Chantry, sit there on his crate with no punishment.
My general view is pretty simple. There's fault enough to go around. It was a perfect storm:
A first enchanter who was too weak-willed to do his job and root out the maleficar in his own circle
+
A Knight-Commander with a huge chip on her shoulder due to childhood trauma and enough crazy to set up shop in a sanitarium
+
Mind-altering artifact of +10 crazy
+
Mentally unstable/ill apostate abomimage driven by various factors to blow up the only reasonable(?) authority figure in the city, forcing something to happen
=
****storm of epic proportions.
The worst part of it is that I felt like there's not really anything that could have been done about it, since everything happened at exactly the right time to touch it off. I don't like feeling helpless, and that's pretty much exactly how I felt when the Chantry went up. I think that's probably the main reason there are so many "Why can't we choose a third option?" threads... people don't like feeling helpless, and it just forces us into an unpleasant situation either way.
The matter of fact is, we meet Circle Mages, who live INSIDE (which seems to be your magic word) the Circle. These Mages use Blood Magic, which is unacceptable. The unknown mages inside the Gallows are an unknown, but the mere fact that we meet numerous Blood Mages, from the Gallows, is enough to condemn the Circle.LobselVith8 wrote...
TJPags wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
That's like comparing all the dwarves in Kirkwall by the actions of the members of the carta. You can't claim that the mages living in the Gallows are the same as the mage antagonists who are outside of the Gallows.
Didn't someone point out the fallacy of this to you already?
Simply because you disagree doesn't make it a fallacy.TJPags wrote...
Mages we see are nuts is to all mages being as nuts as Carta members we see being dwarves is to all Carta members being dwarves.
You're comparing mages who are outside of the Gallows and engaging in criminal activity with mages who are inside the Gallows and not engaging in the same activity.TJPags wrote...
You keep making this comparison and saying it's no good. Tell me, how many mages are there in the Gallows, exactly? How many are blood mages or abominations? And please - provide support for your opinion.
I address we have no information about the mages and apprentices. All I've seen so far is people claiming that we should speculate that all the mages are exactly like the criminal element we encounter outside the Gallows, which is no different than saying all the dwarves are exactly like the carta members Hawke faces.
LobselVith8 wrote...
TJPags wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
That's like comparing all the dwarves in Kirkwall by the actions of the members of the carta. You can't claim that the mages living in the Gallows are the same as the mage antagonists who are outside of the Gallows.
Didn't someone point out the fallacy of this to you already?
Simply because you disagree doesn't make it a fallacy.TJPags wrote...
Mages we see are nuts is to all mages being as nuts as Carta members we see being dwarves is to all Carta members being dwarves.
You're comparing mages who are outside of the Gallows and engaging in criminal activity with mages who are inside the Gallows and not engaging in the same activity.TJPags wrote...
You keep making this comparison and saying it's no good. Tell me, how many mages are there in the Gallows, exactly? How many are blood mages or abominations? And please - provide support for your opinion.
I address we have no information about the mages and apprentices. All I've seen so far is people claiming that we should speculate that all the mages are exactly like the criminal element we encounter outside the Gallows, which is no different than saying all the dwarves are exactly like the carta members Hawke faces.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Uhm... How else am I supposed to? I CAN use the Circle Mages we meet as a template as to how the general Circle Mages is.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why would I think that a Circle mage inside the Gallows is vastly different to a Circle mage outside the Gallows?
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I have no reason to think that Carta members I don't meet is any different, than the Carta members that I do meet.
Sure there may be differences. But those members are impossible to meet. Thus, I must base my evaluation on the evidence I have.
A major theme of the game was, wether you struggle against fate, or if you accept it. I, for one, think the game managed to pull that theme of marvelously.Benchmark wrote...
hoorayforicecream wrote...
TJPags wrote...
lol - fair enough. I can give you my rationale in the nutshell:
Kirkwall is lost. There is a blood mage running the Circle, helping a mass murderer, blood mages running rampant in the streets, and templars who can't control anything - they can't even keep the mages IN the Gallows. The Kirkwall Circle needs to be Anulled, or at the least, every mage locked up and thorougly tested again. If that means another harrowing for everyone, so be it.
However, in my first game, I sided with the mages - because Meredith's reasoning at the end was faulty - I refused to go Anull the Circle while she let Anders, an apostate abomination who blew up the Chantry, sit there on his crate with no punishment.
My general view is pretty simple. There's fault enough to go around. It was a perfect storm:
A first enchanter who was too weak-willed to do his job and root out the maleficar in his own circle
+
A Knight-Commander with a huge chip on her shoulder due to childhood trauma and enough crazy to set up shop in a sanitarium
+
Mind-altering artifact of +10 crazy
+
Mentally unstable/ill apostate abomimage driven by various factors to blow up the only reasonable(?) authority figure in the city, forcing something to happen
=
****storm of epic proportions.
The worst part of it is that I felt like there's not really anything that could have been done about it, since everything happened at exactly the right time to touch it off. I don't like feeling helpless, and that's pretty much exactly how I felt when the Chantry went up. I think that's probably the main reason there are so many "Why can't we choose a third option?" threads... people don't like feeling helpless, and it just forces us into an unpleasant situation either way.
I hated the way I felt railroaded almost the entire game. It isn't that choices were taken out of my hands the way a linear game does it. More like you got teased with a choice. Choose A or B, but B leads to A and A just restarts the event. To contine the game you should choose C which has a really horrible ending.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You aren't murdering anyone.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And if you can't aggree with Meredith, aggree with the evidence Hawke finds on his own. Blood Mages have tainted the Circle and it needs to be purged.
LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm addressing the dicotomy between her perception of reality and what she vocally states as her intent of action. I don't see why you can't see the difference between the two.
TJPags wrote...
Actually, if Hawke hadn't met any other dwarves, that would be a vlid comparison to make. Except, you know, he DID meet other dwarves.
We never meet those other mages. Should I assume that every one of them is such an innocent, when I've met exactly 3 innocent mages in the entire game? Especially since I MUST make a decision.
LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Uhm... How else am I supposed to? I CAN use the Circle Mages we meet as a template as to how the general Circle Mages is.
It's an inaccurate examination, though. It's no different than saying the plethora of human gangs we ran across determines the personalities and actions of all humans in Kirkwall.
LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why would I think that a Circle mage inside the Gallows is vastly different to a Circle mage outside the Gallows?
The same way Varric is different than the carta members we come across.
LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I have no reason to think that Carta members I don't meet is any different, than the Carta members that I do meet.
Sure there may be differences. But those members are impossible to meet. Thus, I must base my evaluation on the evidence I have.
It's not accurate assessment of the mages and apprentices when you're assessing the actions of the criminal element and imposing those actions upon men, women, and children we never actually meet.
hoorayforicecream wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm addressing the dicotomy between her perception of reality and what she vocally states as her intent of action. I don't see why you can't see the difference between the two.
Probably because I'm not you?
LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Mages we meet, live inside the Gallows, so they show us exactly what some of the mages inside the Gallows are like. If you are asking for absolute evidence about how ALL the mages inside the Gallows are like, you are simply being unreasonable.
That's like comparing all the dwarves in Kirkwall by the actions of the members of the carta. You can't claim that the mages living in the Gallows are the same as the mage antagonists who are outside of the Gallows.
LobselVith8 wrote...
TJPags wrote...
Actually, if Hawke hadn't met any other dwarves, that would be a vlid comparison to make. Except, you know, he DID meet other dwarves.
We never meet those other mages. Should I assume that every one of them is such an innocent, when I've met exactly 3 innocent mages in the entire game? Especially since I MUST make a decision.
They are innocent of the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry, which Anders committed, but otherwise we know next to nothing about them.
You simply refuse to understand.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Uhm... How else am I supposed to? I CAN use the Circle Mages we meet as a template as to how the general Circle Mages is.
It's an inaccurate examination, though. It's no different than saying the plethora of human gangs we ran across determines the personalities and actions of all humans in Kirkwall.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why would I think that a Circle mage inside the Gallows is vastly different to a Circle mage outside the Gallows?
The same way Varric is different than the carta members we come across.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I have no reason to think that Carta members I don't meet is any different, than the Carta members that I do meet.
Sure there may be differences. But those members are impossible to meet. Thus, I must base my evaluation on the evidence I have.
It's not accurate assessment of the mages and apprentices when you're assessing the actions of the criminal element and imposing those actions upon men, women, and children we never actually meet.
Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2011 - 01:07 .
TJPags wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
It's an inaccurate examination, though. It's no different than saying the plethora of human gangs we ran across determines the personalities and actions of all humans in Kirkwall.
We have no way of knowing it's innaccurate. You THINK it is. You SPECULATE it is. You want to BELIEVE it is. But you know what? There is nothing to support that opinion. So stop saying the analogy is not accurate.
TJPags wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
The same way Varric is different than the carta members we come across.
As is his brother (before the idol) and the Harrowmounts we see.
When do we see these other mages so we can compare them? Oh, right - we don't.
TJPags wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not accurate assessment of the mages and apprentices when you're assessing the actions of the criminal element and imposing those actions upon men, women, and children we never actually meet.
How do you know its not accurate? Show me evidence of that, please. Especially since, even fighting on the side of the mages, almost every mage you see is using blood magic or turning into/summoning abominations.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 avril 2011 - 01:09 .
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