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[TJPags]

Yet you constantly state AS FACT that those mages are innocents.

While we admit we are speculating, but we are doing based on EVIDENCE in the game.

Your speculation is based on nothing more than what you want to be true.

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

If this isn't a fallacy it is still misrepresentation. I don't have to know which dwarves are carta members and which dwarves are not. The game says "Carta" right above their head.

And the mages with Grace have "apostate" over their heads.

Benchmark wrote...

I may not have a way to distinguish them, but Hawke does, so the game tells me. That dwarf in Hightown has "Worthy" above his head, I bet he isn't a Carta member. His name might be "Worthy" too...

Again, you're judging mages living in the Gallows on the basis of mages you encounter outside of the Gallows, so I don't see how an accurate assessment of the general population can be made.

Benchmark wrote...

Mages you meet outside the Circle that attack you are labelled "Circle Mage". I wonder where they come from... hmm...hmmm...HMMMMM. 

You mean the ones who are technically apostates by the very fact they're outside of the Gallows?

Benchmark wrote...

Emperor stated that you know some mages living in the circle are demon summoning blood mages. You may not know all of them, but you definitely know some of them are. And that should be a none of them or we have a problem.

No, we know relatively little about the mages living in the Gallows because we only meet a few of them, and the most exposure we have to Circle mages is Orsino and Bethany.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Yet you constantly state AS FACT that those mages are innocents.

While we admit we are speculating, but we are doing based on EVIDENCE in the game.

Your speculation is based on nothing more than what you want to be true.

Actually, I state that the Circle mages are innocent of what Anders specifically did - which is kill the Grand Cleric, and destroy the Kirkall Chantry and everyone in it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Yet you constantly state AS FACT that those mages are innocents.

While we admit we are speculating, but we are doing based on EVIDENCE in the game.

Your speculation is based on nothing more than what you want to be true.

Actually, I state that the Circle mages are innocent of what Anders specifically did - which is kill the Grand Cleric, and destroy the Kirkall Chantry and everyone in it.

THen why the hell do you keep arguing against there being Blood Mages within the Circle?

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

If this isn't a fallacy it is still misrepresentation. I don't have to know which dwarves are carta members and which dwarves are not. The game says "Carta" right above their head.

And the mages with Grace have "apostate" over their heads.

Benchmark wrote...

I may not have a way to distinguish them, but Hawke does, so the game tells me. That dwarf in Hightown has "Worthy" above his head, I bet he isn't a Carta member. His name might be "Worthy" too...

Again, you're judging mages living in the Gallows on the basis of mages you encounter outside of the Gallows, so I don't see how an accurate assessment of the general population can be made.

Benchmark wrote...

Mages you meet outside the Circle that attack you are labelled "Circle Mage". I wonder where they come from... hmm...hmmm...HMMMMM. 

You mean the ones who are technically apostates by the very fact they're outside of the Gallows?

Benchmark wrote...

Emperor stated that you know some mages living in the circle are demon summoning blood mages. You may not know all of them, but you definitely know some of them are. And that should be a none of them or we have a problem.

No, we know relatively little about the mages living in the Gallows because we only meet a few of them, and the most exposure we have to Circle mages is Orsino and Bethany.

So, a Circle mage outside the Gallows is an apostate, and we can't use apostates to judge circle mages.

That's your point here?  That even a mage we KNOW is from the Circle no longer counts as a Circle mage because they are outside the Circle, and thus have nothing to do with it?

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Actually, lets be accurate - we know ABSOLUTELY nothing about them.

I agree, we never meet the many mages living in the Gallows to get any idea what they're like. Our exposure to them is severly limited.

TJPags wrote...

They may be complicit in what Anders did.  

Anders confessed, and Hawke is the one who can help him destroy the Chantry, and he already addressed that he didn't want anyone else to be complicit in his actions.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Yet you constantly state AS FACT that those mages are innocents.

While we admit we are speculating, but we are doing based on EVIDENCE in the game.

Your speculation is based on nothing more than what you want to be true.

Actually, I state that the Circle mages are innocent of what Anders specifically did - which is kill the Grand Cleric, and destroy the Kirkall Chantry and everyone in it.

And that's not what this argument is about.

This argument is about whether there are blood mages in the Circle, and whether it deserves to be anulled.

Since I don't see ANYONE arguing that the Circle blew up the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, I state that the Circle mages are innocent of what Anders specifically did - which is kill the Grand Cleric, and destroy the Kirkall Chantry and everyone in it.

THen why the hell do you keep arguing against there being Blood Mages within the Circle?

I don't argue against that, I argue against the claims that it's rife with blood mages when we have no basis to make any determination about the Circle mages in the Gallows.

[Benchmark]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

If this isn't a fallacy it is still misrepresentation. I don't have to know which dwarves are carta members and which dwarves are not. The game says "Carta" right above their head.

And the mages with Grace have "apostate" over their heads.

Benchmark wrote...

I may not have a way to distinguish them, but Hawke does, so the game tells me. That dwarf in Hightown has "Worthy" above his head, I bet he isn't a Carta member. His name might be "Worthy" too...

Again, you're judging mages living in the Gallows on the basis of mages you encounter outside of the Gallows, so I don't see how an accurate assessment of the general population can be made.

Benchmark wrote...

Mages you meet outside the Circle that attack you are labelled "Circle Mage". I wonder where they come from... hmm...hmmm...HMMMMM. 

You mean the ones who are technically apostates by the very fact they're outside of the Gallows?

So, a Circle mage outside the Gallows is an apostate, and we can't use apostates to judge circle mages.

That's your point here?  That even a mage we KNOW is from the Circle no longer counts as a Circle mage because they are outside the Circle, and thus have nothing to do with it?

I think my brain just broke.
Stating that Worthy has "Worthy" over his head means I am judging mages in the gallows.
 Circle Mages that walk past the doorway of the Circle become apostates, despite the fact that they intend to sneak back in. But when they sneak back in I am not allowed to judge them because they are innocent of what Ander's did.
(see I mentioned Ander's so you won't have to invent a reason to...)

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

I think my brain just broke.
Stating that Worthy has "Worthy" over his head means I am judging mages in the gallows.

The entire premise of your post was judging all mages in the Gallows by mages outside of the Gallows, simply because some have "Circle mage" over their heads. I don't think the Worthy comparison helps your argument on this claim.

Benchmark wrote...

Circle Mages that walk past the doorway of the Circle become apostates, despite the fact that they intend to sneak back in.

You mean the mages who are allied with Ser Thrask and were working with renegade templars?

Benchmark wrote...

But when they sneak back in I am not allowed to judge them because they are innocent of what Ander's did.
(see I mentioned Ander's so you won't have to invent a reason to...)

Because he's the reason the Right of Annulment was invoked against the Circle of Kirkwall, which is what is being discussed here. I thought you knew that.

[Lewie]

Benchmark wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

TJPags wrote...

lol - fair enough.  I can give you my rationale in the nutshell:

Kirkwall is lost.  There is a blood mage running the Circle, helping a mass murderer, blood mages running rampant in the streets, and templars who can't control anything - they can't even keep the mages IN the Gallows.  The Kirkwall Circle needs to be Anulled, or at the least, every mage locked up and thorougly tested again.  If that means another harrowing for everyone, so be it.

However, in my first game, I sided with the mages - because Meredith's reasoning at the end was faulty - I refused to go Anull the Circle while she let Anders, an apostate abomination who blew up the Chantry, sit there on his crate with no punishment.

My general view is pretty simple. There's fault enough to go around. It was a perfect storm:

A first enchanter who was too weak-willed to do his job and root out the maleficar in his own circle
+
A Knight-Commander with a huge chip on her shoulder due to childhood trauma and enough crazy to set up shop in a sanitarium
+
Mind-altering artifact of +10 crazy
+
Mentally unstable/ill apostate abomimage driven by various factors to blow up the only reasonable(?) authority figure in the city, forcing something to happen
=
****storm of epic proportions.

The worst part of it is that I felt like there's not really anything that could have been done about it, since everything happened at exactly the right time to touch it off. I don't like feeling helpless, and that's pretty much exactly how I felt when the Chantry went up. I think that's probably the main reason there are so many "Why can't we choose a third option?" threads... people don't like feeling helpless, and it just forces us into an unpleasant situation either way.

I hated the way I felt railroaded almost the entire game. It isn't that choices were taken out of my hands the way a linear game does it. More like you got teased with a choice. Choose A or B, but B leads to A and A just restarts the event. To contine the game you should choose C which has a really horrible ending.

Even simply thinking how one let loose killed 70 people alone, i don't care if it took one year or ten. They kill on sight, whether you are man, woman or child or the easter bunny, and the mage that was is destroyed eventually. Anders took a pure spirit into him, that worked well. I don't care a jot about the chantry they had no stance, they should have but didn't. Elthina should have left and yet i can see her stance too, only because thats what people of faith do, they believe in peace and prayer it makes no sense for her to get the sword out and wham people. 

Whether i agree or not.

Ultimately you are shown the mages are wild, up, down and running the streets, Meredith is talking to her blasted sword, Anders goes boom, Orsino flees to grab his books.

Its simply that order has to be restored, some way. If i side with the mages in kirkwall, i am in a way agreeing to the use of blood magic as a valid defense. If 100 blood mages have to die to save one good one then fair enough ill do it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

I think my brain just broke.
Stating that Worthy has "Worthy" over his head means I am judging mages in the gallows.

The entire premise of your post was judging all mages in the Gallows by mages outside of the Gallows, simply because some have "Circle mage" over their heads. I don't think the Worthy comparison helps your argument on this claim.

Benchmark wrote...

Circle Mages that walk past the doorway of the Circle become apostates, despite the fact that they intend to sneak back in.

You mean the mages who are allied with Ser Thrask and were working with renegade templars?

Benchmark wrote...

But when they sneak back in I am not allowed to judge them because they are innocent of what Ander's did.
(see I mentioned Ander's so you won't have to invent a reason to...)

Because he's the reason the Right of Annulment was invoked against the Circle of Kirkwall, which is what is being discussed here. I thought you knew that.

That is not what we have been discussing for quite a while.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2011 - 01:26 .

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because he's the reason the Right of Annulment was invoked against the Circle of Kirkwall, which is what is being discussed here. I thought you knew that.

He's the excuse Meredith uses to call it.

He's NOT the reason a lot of people agree with her.

I thought you knew that. 

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not what we have been discussing for quite a while.

Discussing the character of the mages because it relates to whether the Right of Annulment was warranted or not is the issue of discussion here. Some are addressing their support for the Right of Annulment on speculation about the Circle mages, but we don't really know anything about them. What we do know is that Meredith invoking the Right of Annulment leads to mages and templars fighting against each other in the streets, while we see mages who actually don't use blood magic to defend themselves against the templars.

[hoorayforicecream]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not what we have been discussing for quite a while.

I get the distinct feeling that what he has been discussing and what you have been discussing haven't been the same thing for quite some time. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not what we have been discussing for quite a while.

Discussing the character of the mages because it relates to whether the Right of Annulment was warranted or not is the issue of discussion here. Some are addressing their support for the Right of Annulment on speculation about the Circle mages, but we don't really know anything about them. What we do know is that Meredith invoking the Right of Annulment leads to mages and templars fighting against each other in the streets, while we see mages who actually don't use blood magic to defend themselves against the templars.

What we also know is that there are Blood Mages within the Circle.

[EmperorSahlertz]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not what we have been discussing for quite a while.

I get the distinct feeling that what he has been discussing and what you have been discussing haven't been the same thing for quite some time. 

Sometimes I do get the feeling, that Lob and I are destined to disagree for all eternity.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2011 - 01:35 .

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

He's the excuse Meredith uses to call it.

He's NOT the reason a lot of people agree with her.

I thought you knew that. 

I've actually read plenty of people address him as the reason they sided with the templars in other threads. It's not a course of action I agree with. Kirkwall was falling to a dictatorship because Grand Cleric Elthina did nothing about Meredith becoming the de facto dictator of Kirkwall and taking power while abuses were being committed. Her death lead to templars hunting down mages that endanering people, which falls on Meredith for deciding to execute all the mages in the Circle of Magi as the first course of action because of an apostate killing Grand Cleric Elthina.

We have no substantial information to determine what the mages and apprentices are like, but they shouldn't be held responsible for what Anders did. Siding with the mages is about stopping the slaughter of people who aren't responsible for what the deaths caused by one apostate, and helping spare mages like Bethany who shouldn't be condemned because an insane Knight-Commander with a Lyrium Idol driving her insane was declared death on them.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not what we have been discussing for quite a while.

Discussing the character of the mages because it relates to whether the Right of Annulment was warranted or not is the issue of discussion here. Some are addressing their support for the Right of Annulment on speculation about the Circle mages, but we don't really know anything about them. What we do know is that Meredith invoking the Right of Annulment leads to mages and templars fighting against each other in the streets, while we see mages who actually don't use blood magic to defend themselves against the templars.

What we also know is that there are Blood Mages within the Circle.

That is not reason enough to murder all mages in the circle.  If even one innocent is killed, the entire act is unjust and unjustified.

It really is that simple.  In fact I'd argue the Entire Right of Annulment is legal geneocide and needs to go.

-Polaris

[Benchmark]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not what we have been discussing for quite a while.

Discussing the character of the mages because it relates to whether the Right of Annulment was warranted or not is the issue of discussion here. Some are addressing their support for the Right of Annulment on speculation about the Circle mages, but we don't really know anything about them. What we do know is that Meredith invoking the Right of Annulment leads to mages and templars fighting against each other in the streets, while we see mages who actually don't use blood magic to defend themselves against the templars.

Ooo hoo hoo FINALLY a good point!! You actually do witness some of the mages as you fight through lowtown and the docks. Some of them do not use Blood Magic!!! I will admit that they are Circle mages, and they are not blood mages, so I saw some representation that mages haven't all turned to demonology!!! Good Job!!!

Oh wait, they are standing right next to other mages that do summon demons and use blood magic. In fact, most of the mages on the way to the Gallows, and the mages in the Gallows summon demons. So now you need to admit that there are quite a few Blood Mages in the circle!!

Oooooh, see what I did there?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The matter of fact is, we meet Circle Mages, who live INSIDE (which seems to be your magic word) the Circle. These Mages use Blood Magic, which is unacceptable. The unknown mages inside the Gallows are an unknown, but the mere fact that we meet numerous Blood Mages, from the Gallows, is enough to condemn the Circle.

You make it seem like every Circle mage is a blood mage, and this isn't the case. Bethany. Ella. Tobrius. Solivitus. Not every Circle mage we meet is a blood mage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not what we have been discussing for quite a while.

Discussing the character of the mages because it relates to whether the Right of Annulment was warranted or not is the issue of discussion here. Some are addressing their support for the Right of Annulment on speculation about the Circle mages, but we don't really know anything about them. What we do know is that Meredith invoking the Right of Annulment leads to mages and templars fighting against each other in the streets, while we see mages who actually don't use blood magic to defend themselves against the templars.

What we also know is that there are Blood Mages within the Circle.

That is not reason enough to murder all mages in the circle.  If even one innocent is killed, the entire act is unjust and unjustified.

It really is that simple.  In fact I'd argue the Entire Right of Annulment is legal geneocide and needs to go.

-Polaris

So you are a spare one at the cost of hundreds type of guy...

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The matter of fact is, we meet Circle Mages, who live INSIDE (which seems to be your magic word) the Circle. These Mages use Blood Magic, which is unacceptable. The unknown mages inside the Gallows are an unknown, but the mere fact that we meet numerous Blood Mages, from the Gallows, is enough to condemn the Circle.

You make it seem like every Circle mage is a blood mage, and this isn't the case. Bethany. Ella. Tobrius. Solivitus. Not every Circle mage we meet is a blood mage.

It is only Bethany out of all those that we can confirm isn't a Blood Mage... Just saying...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2011 - 01:42 .

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not what we have been discussing for quite a while.

Discussing the character of the mages because it relates to whether the Right of Annulment was warranted or not is the issue of discussion here. Some are addressing their support for the Right of Annulment on speculation about the Circle mages, but we don't really know anything about them. What we do know is that Meredith invoking the Right of Annulment leads to mages and templars fighting against each other in the streets, while we see mages who actually don't use blood magic to defend themselves against the templars.

What we also know is that there are Blood Mages within the Circle.

That is not reason enough to murder all mages in the circle.  If even one innocent is killed, the entire act is unjust and unjustified.

It really is that simple.  In fact I'd argue the Entire Right of Annulment is legal geneocide and needs to go.

-Polaris

It really is not that simple.

You have your opinion.  It is not fact.  it is not better than mine.  It is not superior to mine.

Killing 1 innocent mage in order to make sure I kill the 100 non-innocent mages is just and justified.

it really is that simple.

[Benchmark]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not what we have been discussing for quite a while.

Discussing the character of the mages because it relates to whether the Right of Annulment was warranted or not is the issue of discussion here. Some are addressing their support for the Right of Annulment on speculation about the Circle mages, but we don't really know anything about them. What we do know is that Meredith invoking the Right of Annulment leads to mages and templars fighting against each other in the streets, while we see mages who actually don't use blood magic to defend themselves against the templars.

What we also know is that there are Blood Mages within the Circle.

That is not reason enough to murder all mages in the circle.  If even one innocent is killed, the entire act is unjust and unjustified.

It really is that simple.  In fact I'd argue the Entire Right of Annulment is legal geneocide and needs to go.

-Polaris

You again! And you are trying to make your moral irresponsibility everyones! Not everyone can accept the reality of having dire threats to all of Thedas run free. Also the world isn't the fuzzy bunny kind of place you want it to be where we can choose to save everyone all of the time.

Ancient Chinese Proverb
"Kill one to warn a thousand"