945 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

Ooo hoo hoo FINALLY a good point!!

Still condescending, I see.

Benchmark wrote...

You actually do witness some of the mages as you fight through lowtown and the docks. Some of them do not use Blood Magic!!! I will admit that they are Circle mages, and they are not blood mages, so I saw some representation that mages haven't all turned to demonology!!! Good Job!!!

I don't hold the view that all Circle mages practice blood magic, that's all.

Benchmark wrote...

Oh wait, they are standing right next to other mages that do summon demons and use blood magic. In fact, most of the mages on the way to the Gallows, and the mages in the Gallows summon demons.

Actually, after the battle, the mages simply stand there. Hawke and his moiety crew continue onward without the mages.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

He's the excuse Meredith uses to call it.

He's NOT the reason a lot of people agree with her.

I thought you knew that. 

I've actually read plenty of people address him as the reason they sided with the templars in other threads. It's not a course of action I agree with. Kirkwall was falling to a dictatorship because Grand Cleric Elthina did nothing about Meredith becoming the de facto dictator of Kirkwall and taking power while abuses were being committed. Her death lead to templars hunting down mages that endanering people, which falls on Meredith for deciding to execute all the mages in the Circle of Magi as the first course of action because of an apostate killing Grand Cleric Elthina.

We have no substantial information to determine what the mages and apprentices are like, but they shouldn't be held responsible for what Anders did. Siding with the mages is about stopping the slaughter of people who aren't responsible for what the deaths caused by one apostate, and helping spare mages like Bethany who shouldn't be condemned because an insane Knight-Commander with a Lyrium Idol driving her insane was declared death on them.

Nobody in this thread has done so, certainly not for quite a while.

So please, move on to what we ARE discussing.

Which is, all that evidence of multiple blood mages IN the Chantry.

[IanPolaris]

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 22 avril 2011 - 01:47 .

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Nobody in this thread has done so, certainly not for quite a while.

So please, move on to what we ARE discussing.

Which is, all that evidence of multiple blood mages IN the Chantry.

The Chantry? Are you claiming blood mages have infiltrated the Kirkwall Chantry?

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

Ooo hoo hoo FINALLY a good point!!

Still condescending, I see.

Benchmark wrote...

You actually do witness some of the mages as you fight through lowtown and the docks. Some of them do not use Blood Magic!!! I will admit that they are Circle mages, and they are not blood mages, so I saw some representation that mages haven't all turned to demonology!!! Good Job!!!

I don't hold the view that all Circle mages practice blood magic, that's all.

Benchmark wrote...

Oh wait, they are standing right next to other mages that do summon demons and use blood magic. In fact, most of the mages on the way to the Gallows, and the mages in the Gallows summon demons.

Actually, after the battle, the mages simply stand there. Hawke and his moiety crew continue onward without the mages.

No one is saying ALL the Circle Mages are practising Blood Magic. Some of us are saying that there are a significant number of Blood Mages within the Circle. I have no doubt that there are mages within the Gallows who have no interest in Blood Magic. Sadly the presence of just a few Blood Mages is too much.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Nobody in this thread has done so, certainly not for quite a while.

So please, move on to what we ARE discussing.

Which is, all that evidence of multiple blood mages IN the Chantry.

The Chantry? Are you claiming blood mages have infiltrated the Kirkwall Chantry?

Sorry, meant Circle there.

Point stands, though.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

No, we are condemning them for what they DO - which is use blood magic to summon demons and abominations.

Using the only sampe we have.

You, sir, are a real piece of work as well.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No one is saying ALL the Circle Mages are practising Blood Magic. Some of us are saying that there are a significant number of Blood Mages within the Circle. I have no doubt that there are mages within the Gallows who have no interest in Blood Magic. Sadly the presence of just a few Blood Mages is too much.

So you are justifying slaying an entire group of people because a FEW might be guilty when that isn't even the stated justification for the Right of Annulment.

Remember that Meredith had already tried to get a Right of Annulment based on the arguments and evidence you've presented, and she was turned down by the Grand Cleric (and quite probably by the Divine as well).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

Polaris. I tire of explaining to you how it isn't genocide. It doesn't fit the definition of genocide, ergo there is no discussion wether or not it is genocide. It ISN'T.

On a side note, how do you know the amount of mages we meet isn't representative? If I am not mistaken, to get a representative sample of a population you only have to get 5% (at least that is enough where I am from). 

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

No, we are condemning them for what they DO - which is use blood magic to summon demons and abominations.

Using the only sampe we have.

You, sir, are a real piece of work as well.

Nope.  You and others are advocating what in Human Rights circles is called collective punishment and that IS a form of genocide.  You want to punish (and ultimately slaughter) all mages because a few might be guilty.  That is not black and white.  That is evil.  Pure and simple.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No one is saying ALL the Circle Mages are practising Blood Magic. Some of us are saying that there are a significant number of Blood Mages within the Circle. I have no doubt that there are mages within the Gallows who have no interest in Blood Magic. Sadly the presence of just a few Blood Mages is too much.

But if we have relatively no idea what the many mages in the Gallows are like, how can we say there are a significant number of blood mages among them?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Polaris. I tire of explaining to you how it isn't genocide. It doesn't fit the definition of genocide, ergo there is no discussion wether or not it is genocide. It ISN'T.

KoP actually pulled the UN Definition of Genocide (and KoP is not exactly in my fan club) and it DOES fit the legal definition of genocide as much as you want to deny it.

On a side note, how do you know the amount of mages we meet isn't representative? If I am not mistaken, to get a representative sample of a population you only have to get 5% (at least that is enough where I am from). 

We don't and that's the problem.  Until we do know, we have to assume that it's not because that is the course of action that preserves innocent lives.

You assume innocent until proven guilty I hope.....

-Polaris

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

And condemning every templar to death because meredith is crazy is also the right thing to do.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No one is saying ALL the Circle Mages are practising Blood Magic. Some of us are saying that there are a significant number of Blood Mages within the Circle. I have no doubt that there are mages within the Gallows who have no interest in Blood Magic. Sadly the presence of just a few Blood Mages is too much.

So you are justifying slaying an entire group of people because a FEW might be guilty when that isn't even the stated justification for the Right of Annulment.

Remember that Meredith had already tried to get a Right of Annulment based on the arguments and evidence you've presented, and she was turned down by the Grand Cleric (and quite probably by the Divine as well).

-Polaris

The only justification the Annulment needs is a Knight-Commander calling it, and a Grand Cleric aggreeing. If Elthina disaggrees does not equate another Grand Cleric would. After all, Elthina was extremely dedicated to peace, and believed in "the good in people". I doubt she would ever authorize an Annulment, even if a Cricle Blood Mage made her run naked through the streets.

And yes, I would sacrifice a corrupt Circle, to make sure the corruption within it did not spread. If I had a tool to discern who within the Circle was corrupt (and if I had time to act another way) I would only kill the corrupt. Sadly there is no such tool, and thus the entire Circle must be purged.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

No, we are condemning them for what they DO - which is use blood magic to summon demons and abominations.

Using the only sampe we have.

You, sir, are a real piece of work as well.

Nope.  You and others are advocating what in Human Rights circles is called collective punishment and that IS a form of genocide.  You want to punish (and ultimately slaughter) all mages because a few might be guilty.  That is not black and white.  That is evil.  Pure and simple.

-Polaris

Selective numbers here, Ian?

It's not that a few might be guilty - it's that many ARE guilty.

As to Meredith being turned down for the RoA earlier - That was Elthinna making that decision.  This is us making the decision.  See how that works?  Jury 1 says not guilty, jury 2 says guilty . . .magic, ain't it?

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

Further, the information we don't see is important enough to brand us as morally indefensible if we decide to act on the information that we do see.

I'm simply arguing that we can't judge all the Circle mages on the basis of the few criminal mages who are outside of the Gallows.

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

And condemning every templar to death because meredith is crazy is also the right thing to do.

If their goal is killing men, women, and children, then a pro-mage Hawke who is going to save Bethany and the other mages and apprentices of the Circle has no choice but to defend people who are innocent of what Anders did.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

Further, the information we don't see is important enough to brand us as morally indefensible if we decide to act on the information that we do see.

I'm simply arguing that we can't judge all the Circle mages on the basis of the few criminal mages who are outside of the Gallows.

It's not "few".  It's all but 3.  That's most.  Or virtually all.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

And condemning every templar to death because meredith is crazy is also the right thing to do.

If their goal is killing men, women, and children, then a pro-mage Hawke who is going to save Bethany and the other mages and apprentices of the Circle has no choice but to defend people who are innocent of what Anders did.

Back to Anders I see. 

A pro-templar Hawke clearly sees it differently.

Hell, some pro-mage Hawke's may see it differently.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Polaris. I tire of explaining to you how it isn't genocide. It doesn't fit the definition of genocide, ergo there is no discussion wether or not it is genocide. It ISN'T.

KoP actually pulled the UN Definition of Genocide (and KoP is not exactly in my fan club) and it DOES fit the legal definition of genocide as much as you want to deny it.

On a side note, how do you know the amount of mages we meet isn't representative? If I am not mistaken, to get a representative sample of a population you only have to get 5% (at least that is enough where I am from). 

We don't and that's the problem.  Until we do know, we have to assume that it's not because that is the course of action that preserves innocent lives.

You assume innocent until proven guilty I hope.....

-Polaris

Actually I've shown (quite alot of times now) how the UN definition in particular doesn't fit.

And yes, of course I do believe in innocence until proven guilty. I however also believe in doing what must be done.
A hypthosis:
Three men are walking towards you. One of them got a bomb. The bomb will go off once it reaches you. Do you shoot all three men, knowing that two of the men are completely innocent. Or do you shoot not shoot anyone, causing all of you to die.
To me the answer is obvious.

Innocence is good and all. You just can't rely on it to keep you alive.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only justification the Annulment needs is a Knight-Commander calling it, and a Grand Cleric aggreeing. If Elthina disaggrees does not equate another Grand Cleric would. After all, Elthina was extremely dedicated to peace, and believed in "the good in people". I doubt she would ever authorize an Annulment, even if a Cricle Blood Mage made her run naked through the streets.

That's the only LEGAL justification, but even Cullen argues for a higher moral standard, and he's right.  As for Elthina, you can't sweep under the rug that the argument you've made was presented to both Elthina and the Divine by Meredith, and they turned her down.  Meredith's professed reason for the RoA is the fact the Chantry has been destroyed by magic.  Period.  Even Cullen thinks that's too much and not-justified ethically, but does nothing to stop it.

And yes, I would sacrifice a corrupt Circle, to make sure the corruption within it did not spread. If I had a tool to discern who within the Circle was corrupt (and if I had time to act another way) I would only kill the corrupt. Sadly there is no such tool, and thus the entire Circle must be purged.

Which still is an evil choice.  It's easy to slaughter people.  It's hard to take the time to actually determine guilt or innocence.  That's why evil choices are often the 'easy' ones.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm simply arguing that we can't judge all the Circle mages on the basis of the few criminal mages who are outside of the Gallows.

It's not "few".  It's all but 3.  That's most.  Or virtually all.

There were more than three Circle mages we meet who didn't perform blood magic during DA2. Bethany. Ella. Tobrius. Solivitus. Not every Circle mage we meet is a blood mage. The problem is our encounters are extremely limited with the Circle mages to make any determination about the mages as a whole.

[hoorayforicecream]

IanPolaris wrote...

KoP actually pulled the UN Definition of Genocide (and KoP is not exactly in my fan club) and it DOES fit the legal definition of genocide as much as you want to deny it.

Did you ever clarify which of the four groups (national, ethnical, racial or religious) the mages fell under? Last I heard you were trying to claim that mages are an ethnic group, but that seems a bit specious. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only justification the Annulment needs is a Knight-Commander calling it, and a Grand Cleric aggreeing. If Elthina disaggrees does not equate another Grand Cleric would. After all, Elthina was extremely dedicated to peace, and believed in "the good in people". I doubt she would ever authorize an Annulment, even if a Cricle Blood Mage made her run naked through the streets.

That's the only LEGAL justification, but even Cullen argues for a higher moral standard, and he's right.  As for Elthina, you can't sweep under the rug that the argument you've made was presented to both Elthina and the Divine by Meredith, and they turned her down.  Meredith's professed reason for the RoA is the fact the Chantry has been destroyed by magic.  Period.  Even Cullen thinks that's too much and not-justified ethically, but does nothing to stop it.

And yes, I would sacrifice a corrupt Circle, to make sure the corruption within it did not spread. If I had a tool to discern who within the Circle was corrupt (and if I had time to act another way) I would only kill the corrupt. Sadly there is no such tool, and thus the entire Circle must be purged.

Which still is an evil choice.  It's easy to slaughter people.  It's hard to take the time to actually determine guilt or innocence.  That's why evil choices are often the 'easy' ones.

-Polaris

It never reached the Divine, so we have no way of knowing her answer.

And I don't believe in evil. I believe in choice and consequence. Good and Evil are what others hide behind to judge people who make decissions they are themselves too cowardly to make. (not a stab at you at all, just the way I view those terms)

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2011 - 02:06 .

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Did you ever clarify which of the four groups (national, ethnical, racial or religious) the mages fell under? Last I heard you were trying to claim that mages are an ethnic group, but that seems a bit specious. 

We meet mages who regard other mages as their people, including Bethany. The Chantry certainly sees enough distinction to lock up everyone with magical ability.