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[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm simply arguing that we can't judge all the Circle mages on the basis of the few criminal mages who are outside of the Gallows.

It's not "few".  It's all but 3.  That's most.  Or virtually all.

There were more than three Circle mages we meet who didn't perform blood magic during DA2. Bethany. Ella. Tobrius. Solivitus. Not every Circle mage we meet is a blood mage. The problem is our encounters are extremely limited with the Circle mages to make any determination about the mages as a whole.

Oh, so sorry - 4.

HUGE difference.

And Ian - no revisionist history, please.  The Divine never answered Meredith's request.  That is not a no.  It's as possible that a YES was on its way.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Did you ever clarify which of the four groups (national, ethnical, racial or religious) the mages fell under? Last I heard you were trying to claim that mages are an ethnic group, but that seems a bit specious. 

We meet mages who regard other mages as their people, including Bethany. The Chantry certainly sees enough distinction to lock up everyone with magical ability.

Yeah... but that doesn't mean that they are killed for being part of a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... which is the legal definition of genocide, as Polaris stated. It just means that Bethany called them her people. I call computer geeks "my people" too, but that doesn't mean we're a recognized nationality, ethnicity, race or religion.

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

KoP actually pulled the UN Definition of Genocide (and KoP is not exactly in my fan club) and it DOES fit the legal definition of genocide as much as you want to deny it.

Did you ever clarify which of the four groups (national, ethnical, racial or religious) the mages fell under? Last I heard you were trying to claim that mages are an ethnic group, but that seems a bit specious. 

Actually both KoP and I both agreed that mage would fall under either Ethnic and/or Racial since magical ability is an inborn trait.  Just like killing everyone for having blue eyes would be genocide.

-Polaris

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only justification the Annulment needs is a Knight-Commander calling it, and a Grand Cleric aggreeing. If Elthina disaggrees does not equate another Grand Cleric would. After all, Elthina was extremely dedicated to peace, and believed in "the good in people". I doubt she would ever authorize an Annulment, even if a Cricle Blood Mage made her run naked through the streets.

That's the only LEGAL justification, but even Cullen argues for a higher moral standard, and he's right.  As for Elthina, you can't sweep under the rug that the argument you've made was presented to both Elthina and the Divine by Meredith, and they turned her down.  Meredith's professed reason for the RoA is the fact the Chantry has been destroyed by magic.  Period.  Even Cullen thinks that's too much and not-justified ethically, but does nothing to stop it.

And yes, I would sacrifice a corrupt Circle, to make sure the corruption within it did not spread. If I had a tool to discern who within the Circle was corrupt (and if I had time to act another way) I would only kill the corrupt. Sadly there is no such tool, and thus the entire Circle must be purged.

Which still is an evil choice.  It's easy to slaughter people.  It's hard to take the time to actually determine guilt or innocence.  That's why evil choices are often the 'easy' ones.

-Polaris

Bring a demon into court then and decide. To hell with good mages all over let them use blood magic. The easy choice is oh i saved someone, im awesome. The harder decision is getting rid of a threat that will spread and destroy the mages that are good.. eventually that would happen. Mages can't control them. 

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Did you ever clarify which of the four groups (national, ethnical, racial or religious) the mages fell under? Last I heard you were trying to claim that mages are an ethnic group, but that seems a bit specious. 

We meet mages who regard other mages as their people, including Bethany. The Chantry certainly sees enough distinction to lock up everyone with magical ability.

Yeah... but that doesn't mean that they are killed for being part of a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... which is the legal definition of genocide, as Polaris stated. It just means that Bethany called them her people. I call computer geeks "my people" too, but that doesn't mean we're a recognized nationality, ethnicity, race or religion.

"Mage" is an expressed and visible phenotype that the person can do nothing about, and is being used to justify being killed.  That makes "mage" a 'racial' or 'ethnic' type per the definition.  I guarantee you that had Meredith pulled her stunt in our real world, legal or not in her local, the Hague would have her up on genocide charges.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Circle system as a whole is closer to genocide than the Annulment is actually. Though the Circle system does not quite fit into the description either.

[hoorayforicecream]

IanPolaris wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

KoP actually pulled the UN Definition of Genocide (and KoP is not exactly in my fan club) and it DOES fit the legal definition of genocide as much as you want to deny it.

Did you ever clarify which of the four groups (national, ethnical, racial or religious) the mages fell under? Last I heard you were trying to claim that mages are an ethnic group, but that seems a bit specious. 

Actually both KoP and I both agreed that mage would fall under either Ethnic and/or Racial since magical ability is an inborn trait.  Just like killing everyone for having blue eyes would be genocide.

-Polaris

Oh, so long as you two agreed, then it must be ok. Do you think they'd accept "blue eyed" at the DMV for ethnicity? 

I mean... honestly, being born with a birth defect doesn't make you an ethnicity or a race, and that's still an inborn trait. "What ethnicity are you?" "Sickle-cell positive, officer."

[IanPolaris]

louise101 wrote...

Bring a demon into court then and decide. To hell with good mages all over let them use blood magic. The easy choice is oh i saved someone, im awesome. The harder decision is getting rid of a threat that will spread and destroy the mages that are good.. eventually that would happen. Mages can't control them. 

Please.  We don't even the know the rate at which demons make mages (or anyone else since a demon can possess anyone) abominations.  Bioware never tells us....and bloodmagic does not make you an automatic abomination anyway.

You are killing all mages because a few might become possessed.  Bad.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Did you ever clarify which of the four groups (national, ethnical, racial or religious) the mages fell under? Last I heard you were trying to claim that mages are an ethnic group, but that seems a bit specious. 

We meet mages who regard other mages as their people, including Bethany. The Chantry certainly sees enough distinction to lock up everyone with magical ability.

Yeah... but that doesn't mean that they are killed for being part of a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... which is the legal definition of genocide, as Polaris stated. It just means that Bethany called them her people. I call computer geeks "my people" too, but that doesn't mean we're a recognized nationality, ethnicity, race or religion.

"Mage" is an expressed and visible phenotype that the person can do nothing about, and is being used to justify being killed.  That makes "mage" a 'racial' or 'ethnic' type per the definition.  I guarantee you that had Meredith pulled her stunt in our real world, legal or not in her local, the Hague would have her up on genocide charges.

-Polaris

And here is your disconnect.

This is NOT our world.  It is HER world.  The Hague doesn't exist.  The RoA is legal.

As I've said before, comparison to our world, even if accurate - and I'm not conceding that it is - is irrlevant.

[Benchmark]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only justification the Annulment needs is a Knight-Commander calling it, and a Grand Cleric aggreeing. If Elthina disaggrees does not equate another Grand Cleric would. After all, Elthina was extremely dedicated to peace, and believed in "the good in people". I doubt she would ever authorize an Annulment, even if a Cricle Blood Mage made her run naked through the streets.

That's the only LEGAL justification, but even Cullen argues for a higher moral standard, and he's right.  As for Elthina, you can't sweep under the rug that the argument you've made was presented to both Elthina and the Divine by Meredith, and they turned her down.  Meredith's professed reason for the RoA is the fact the Chantry has been destroyed by magic.  Period.  Even Cullen thinks that's too much and not-justified ethically, but does nothing to stop it.

And yes, I would sacrifice a corrupt Circle, to make sure the corruption within it did not spread. If I had a tool to discern who within the Circle was corrupt (and if I had time to act another way) I would only kill the corrupt. Sadly there is no such tool, and thus the entire Circle must be purged.

Which still is an evil choice.  It's easy to slaughter people.  It's hard to take the time to actually determine guilt or innocence.  That's why evil choices are often the 'easy' ones.

-Polaris

You just chose to unleash the torment of blood magic and abomination attacks upon the populace of Kirkwall because you were unwilling to make a morally responsible choice. You have 0 statistical sampling to back up your decision. You have 0 knowledge other than what I presented.

You were willing to let 99 blood mages escape so that you could avoid killing 1 innocent mage. In fact, in game evidence showed you may have done just that.

Way to use your data. You sir are a peach.

-Benchfingmark

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Oh, so sorry - 4.

Exactly.

TJPags wrote...

HUGE difference.

I know.

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Oh, so long as you two agreed, then it must be ok. Do you think they'd accept "blue eyed" at the DMV for ethnicity? 

I mean... honestly, being born with a birth defect doesn't make you an ethnicity or a race, and that's still an inborn trait. "What ethnicity are you?" "Sickle-cell positive, officer."

Just because the DMV might not recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't fit the legal definition per the UN.  If a killer decided to kill just people with red hair and blue eyes, he could be charged with genocide (and KoP already linked to such a case where this in fact happened).

It doesn't have to be a recognized govt ethnic-racial type to qualify.  It has to be enough so that a non-choosable trait was used as sole basis for the action....and the RoA qualifies.  In fact the Hague is very careful NOT to let governments define what is considered racial or ethnic types to prevent would be strongmen like Slobo from using the exact weasel argument you are attempting here (define away actual genocide).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

You just chose to unleash the torment of blood magic and abomination attacks upon the populace of Kirkwall because you were unwilling to make a morally responsible choice. You have 0 statistical sampling to back up your decision. You have 0 knowledge other than what I presented.

What Hawke knows, however, is that Anders is responsible for the attack on the Chantry. He confessed to it, and even performed the act in front of everyone - the Knight-Commander, the First Enchanter, Hawke and everyone else involved. Meredith chooses to use this act to murder mages who are innocent of the act. Killing an entire population of people who are Circle mages and apprentices because of what one apostate does doesn't sound like the moral choice.

Benchmark wrote...

You were willing to let 99 blood mages escape so that you could avoid killing 1 innocent mage. In fact, in game evidence showed you may have done just that.

There's no evidence there are 99 blood mages, and every mage and apprentice is innocent of the act Anders committed.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

You just chose to unleash the torment of blood magic and abomination attacks upon the populace of Kirkwall because you were unwilling to make a morally responsible choice. You have 0 statistical sampling to back up your decision. You have 0 knowledge other than what I presented.

What Hawke knows, however, is that Anders is responsible for the attack on the Chantry. He confessed to it, and even performed the act in front of everyone - the Knight-Commander, the First Enchanter, Hawke and everyone else involved. Meredith chooses to use this act to murder mages who are innocent of the act. Killing an entire population of people who are Circle mages and apprentices because of what one apostate does doesn't sound like the moral choice.

Benchmark wrote...

You were willing to let 99 blood mages escape so that you could avoid killing 1 innocent mage. In fact, in game evidence showed you may have done just that.

There's no evidence there are 99 blood mages, and every mage and apprentice is innocent of the act Anders committed.

You're back to Anders.

Please - enough with him.  You're the only one mentioning him.

Address the arguments being made.

[Benchmark]

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Bring a demon into court then and decide. To hell with good mages all over let them use blood magic. The easy choice is oh i saved someone, im awesome. The harder decision is getting rid of a threat that will spread and destroy the mages that are good.. eventually that would happen. Mages can't control them. 

Please.  We don't even the know the rate at which demons make mages (or anyone else since a demon can possess anyone) abominations.  Bioware never tells us....and bloodmagic does not make you an automatic abomination anyway.

You are killing all mages because a few might become possessed.  Bad.

-Polaris

Haha amazing. Once again your "lack" of information is somehow trumping my gathered in game experiences.

And look, you used a huge generalization about killing all mages so you can dishonestly claw your way to the highground again. Hoorah.

Amputating an arm that has a paper cut. Bad.
Amputating an arm with gangrene infection, despite really loving to cuddle that pinky finger. Not bad.

[Urazz]

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

And condemning every templar to death because meredith is crazy is also the right thing to do.

Who said anything about that?  Siding with the mages is just fighting back against the templars trying to kill mages in the RoA.    I don't think anyone in game ever advocated killing all templars and hunting them down.

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Did you ever clarify which of the four groups (national, ethnical, racial or religious) the mages fell under? Last I heard you were trying to claim that mages are an ethnic group, but that seems a bit specious.

We meet mages who regard other mages as their people, including Bethany. The Chantry certainly sees enough distinction to lock up everyone with magical ability.

Yeah... but that doesn't mean that they are killed for being part of a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... which is the legal definition of genocide, as Polaris stated. It just means that Bethany called them her people. I call computer geeks "my people" too, but that doesn't mean we're a recognized nationality, ethnicity, race or religion.

"Mage" is an expressed and visible phenotype that the person can do nothing about, and is being used to justify being killed. That makes "mage" a 'racial' or 'ethnic' type per the definition. I guarantee you that had Meredith pulled her stunt in our real world, legal or not in her local, the Hague would have her up on genocide charges.

-Polaris

And here is your disconnect.

This is NOT our world. It is HER world. The Hague doesn't exist. The RoA is legal.

As I've said before, comparison to our world, even if accurate - and I'm not conceding that it is - is irrlevant.

I wouldn't say comparison to our world is irrevalent.  Some things like some morals are shared amongst all mankind and you see that in the Dragon Age world when compared to our world.  Hell, I'm sure most regular people are probably against something like the Right of Annulment in most cases but how many normal people are aware of such a provision for Templars in the Chantry laws?  Most peasants and nobles probably just know the chantry laws and policies that apply to themselves than stuff like what the templars can and can't do to mages.

Modifié par Urazz, 22 avril 2011 - 02:28 .

[IanPolaris]

Urazz wrote...

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

And condemning every templar to death because meredith is crazy is also the right thing to do.

Who said anything about that?  Siding with the mages is just fighting back against the templars trying to kill mages in the RoA.    I don't think anyone in game ever advocated killing all templars and hunting them down.

Indeed.  Not only that but a Templar is a Templar by CHOICE and a member of a military organization by CHOICE.  In fact under modern military ethics, they are compelled to disobey Meredith's order as clearly immoral regardless of the technical legality (see Nuremberg).

The fact you are a Templar by choice and you can walk away makes all the moral difference in the world.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...
You're back to Anders.

Please - enough with him.  You're the only one mentioning him.

Address the arguments being made.

Ultimately it all comes back to Anders, though.  What changed to permit Meredith the legal (if not moral) ability to call for a unilateral RoA?  Ander's bombing of the Chantry and killing the Grand Cleric.  Indeed, the fact that Grand Cleric has been slain by magic is EXACTLY the stated justification for the Right of Annulment.  Meredith doesn't call it because of blood mages or anything else.  Her stated legal reason is Ander's action and that is the benchmark that needs to be used.

She already requested a RoA for those other reasons and was turned down (not just by Elthina which we know for certain but probably by the Divine herself since we know that Meredith appealed and we know that she wasn't able to do it until Anders torched the Chantry).

That means even under Chantry Law, Meredith's case was examined and rejected by her legal superiors in this....and the destruction of the Chantry did NOT change that evidence.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

Urazz wrote...

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

And condemning every templar to death because meredith is crazy is also the right thing to do.

Who said anything about that?  Siding with the mages is just fighting back against the templars trying to kill mages in the RoA.    I don't think anyone in game ever advocated killing all templars and hunting them down.

Indeed.  Not only that but a Templar is a Templar by CHOICE and a member of a military organization by CHOICE.  In fact under modern military ethics, they are compelled to disobey Meredith's order as clearly immoral regardless of the technical legality (see Nuremberg).

The fact you are a Templar by choice and you can walk away makes all the moral difference in the world.

-Polaris

Again you try to use modern justification.

This is not our world.  It is not set in our world.  It doesn't pretend to be our world.  It doesn't try to be our world.

Laws, conventions, morals of our world do not apply.

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Urazz wrote...

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

And condemning every templar to death because meredith is crazy is also the right thing to do.

Who said anything about that?  Siding with the mages is just fighting back against the templars trying to kill mages in the RoA.    I don't think anyone in game ever advocated killing all templars and hunting them down.

Indeed.  Not only that but a Templar is a Templar by CHOICE and a member of a military organization by CHOICE.  In fact under modern military ethics, they are compelled to disobey Meredith's order as clearly immoral regardless of the technical legality (see Nuremberg).

The fact you are a Templar by choice and you can walk away makes all the moral difference in the world.

-Polaris

So its morally right to kill all the templars simply because the second in command didn't fly in with the (box of law and history) hammer. 

Yet coveniently ignore the slaughter of templars, they must have all been guilty, every single one, no question.

Modifié par louise101, 22 avril 2011 - 02:36 .

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Again you try to use modern justification.

This is not our world.  It is not set in our world.  It doesn't pretend to be our world.  It doesn't try to be our world.

Laws, conventions, morals of our world do not apply.

Thedas still shares many modern ideals, despite its fantasy setting. One only needs to look at the treatment of women to see this is addressed.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...
You're back to Anders.

Please - enough with him.  You're the only one mentioning him.

Address the arguments being made.

Ultimately it all comes back to Anders, though.  What changed to permit Meredith the legal (if not moral) ability to call for a unilateral RoA?  Ander's bombing of the Chantry and killing the Grand Cleric.  Indeed, the fact that Grand Cleric has been slain by magic is EXACTLY the stated justification for the Right of Annulment.  Meredith doesn't call it because of blood mages or anything else.  Her stated legal reason is Ander's action and that is the benchmark that needs to be used.

She already requested a RoA for those other reasons and was turned down (not just by Elthina which we know for certain but probably by the Divine herself since we know that Meredith appealed and we know that she wasn't able to do it until Anders torched the Chantry).

That means even under Chantry Law, Meredith's case was examined and rejected by her legal superiors in this....and the destruction of the Chantry did NOT change that evidence.

-Polaris

No.

First, we do not know the Divine turned her down.  For all we know, a messenger with a "yes" was on his/her way.

Elthinna is the Grand Cleric - the position Meredith holds by virtue of the Chantry being bombed.  Elthinna is no longer her superior.  Elthinna's opinion is now moot.  So there is no evidence that her superiors turned her down.  There is WoG that she now has the authority herself. 

And again - as I said to Lob - Meredith may use that as her excuse to call for the RoA.  It need not be the reason people support it.  Hell, she didn't even need to use that as a reason.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

Again you try to use modern justification.

This is not our world.  It is not set in our world.  It doesn't pretend to be our world.  It doesn't try to be our world.

Laws, conventions, morals of our world do not apply.

I have every right to.  Dragon Age is modern fantasy made for the modern reader and player involved who is informed by modern notions of morality, ethics, and law.  Otherwise we wouldn't see female knights, open homosexual relationships, and much, much more.

Every moral chocie presented in Dragon Age is meant for the modern audience and that means modern morality applies.

-Polaris

[Urazz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Urazz wrote...

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark,

You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.

You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.

-Polaris

And condemning every templar to death because meredith is crazy is also the right thing to do.

Who said anything about that?  Siding with the mages is just fighting back against the templars trying to kill mages in the RoA.    I don't think anyone in game ever advocated killing all templars and hunting them down.

Indeed.  Not only that but a Templar is a Templar by CHOICE and a member of a military organization by CHOICE.  In fact under modern military ethics, they are compelled to disobey Meredith's order as clearly immoral regardless of the technical legality (see Nuremberg).

The fact you are a Templar by choice and you can walk away makes all the moral difference in the world.

-Polaris

Yep that is true. But I'm thinking that all the templars weren't aware of the reasons why Meredith's reasons for enacting a RoA.  The only templars that were there didn't really get the chance to tell everyone why Meredith was calling for a RoA I think because things were moving too fast for everyone to find out at that point I think.  Considering Cullen did eventually rebel against Meredith at the end, I'm thinking if he was there when she made the call for the RoA, he would've went against her and alot of templars would've joined him.

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

So its morally right to kill all the templars simply because the second in command didn't fly in with the (box of law and history) hammer. 

If the templars' goal is the death of men, women, and children because an act no Circle mage committed? Then I'd say it's morally right to protect everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice from the templars who will kill them otherwise.