louise101 wrote...
So its morally right to kill all the templars simply because the second in command didn't fly in with the (box of law and history) hammer.
LobselVith8 wrote...
TJPags wrote...
Again you try to use modern justification.
This is not our world. It is not set in our world. It doesn't pretend to be our world. It doesn't try to be our world.
Laws, conventions, morals of our world do not apply.
Thedas still shares many modern ideals, despite its fantasy setting. One only needs to look at the treatment of women to see this is addressed.
IanPolaris wrote...
Just because the DMV might not recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't fit the legal definition per the UN. If a killer decided to kill just people with red hair and blue eyes, he could be charged with genocide (and KoP already linked to such a case where this in fact happened).
It doesn't have to be a recognized govt ethnic-racial type to qualify. It has to be enough so that a non-choosable trait was used as sole basis for the action....and the RoA qualifies. In fact the Hague is very careful NOT to let governments define what is considered racial or ethnic types to prevent would be strongmen like Slobo from using the exact weasel argument you are attempting here (define away actual genocide).
-Polaris
When a grunt is told to jump, he does not ask "Why?" he asks "How high?" It is not the job of the Templars to question the orders of their superiors. If the order they recieve is legal, it doesn't matter two pots of ****** wether or not it fits their moral compas.IanPolaris wrote...
Urazz wrote...
Who said anything about that? Siding with the mages is just fighting back against the templars trying to kill mages in the RoA. I don't think anyone in game ever advocated killing all templars and hunting them down.louise101 wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Benchmark,
You are comdemning an entire group to death based on what they are (which is genocide by definition) and you are trying to justify it based on a sample that would get earn any grad student an automatic failing grade for being a non-representative sample.
You are a real piece of work, sir. Bravo.
-Polaris
And condemning every templar to death because meredith is crazy is also the right thing to do.
Indeed. Not only that but a Templar is a Templar by CHOICE and a member of a military organization by CHOICE. In fact under modern military ethics, they are compelled to disobey Meredith's order as clearly immoral regardless of the technical legality (see Nuremberg).
The fact you are a Templar by choice and you can walk away makes all the moral difference in the world.
-Polaris
TJPags wrote...
No.
First, we do not know the Divine turned her down. For all we know, a messenger with a "yes" was on his/her way.
Elthinna is the Grand Cleric - the position Meredith holds by virtue of the Chantry being bombed. Elthinna is no longer her superior. Elthinna's opinion is now moot. So there is no evidence that her superiors turned her down. There is WoG that she now has the authority herself.
And again - as I said to Lob - Meredith may use that as her excuse to call for the RoA. It need not be the reason people support it. Hell, she didn't even need to use that as a reason.
If you fight back, you are no longer civilian, and different rules apply. Funny how that works both ways eh?IanPolaris wrote...
louise101 wrote...
So its morally right to kill all the templars simply because the second in command didn't fly in with the (box of law and history) hammer.
At no time are we called upon to kill all Templars, and Templars are a military organization whose members join and remain BY CHOICE. That means they are not civilians and that means different rules apply.
-Polaris
IanPolaris wrote...
TJPags wrote...
Again you try to use modern justification.
This is not our world. It is not set in our world. It doesn't pretend to be our world. It doesn't try to be our world.
Laws, conventions, morals of our world do not apply.
I have every right to. Dragon Age is modern fantasy made for the modern reader and player involved who is informed by modern notions of morality, ethics, and law. Otherwise we wouldn't see female knights, open homosexual relationships, and much, much more.
Every moral chocie presented in Dragon Age is meant for the modern audience and that means modern morality applies.
-Polaris
hoorayforicecream wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Just because the DMV might not recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't fit the legal definition per the UN. If a killer decided to kill just people with red hair and blue eyes, he could be charged with genocide (and KoP already linked to such a case where this in fact happened).
It doesn't have to be a recognized govt ethnic-racial type to qualify. It has to be enough so that a non-choosable trait was used as sole basis for the action....and the RoA qualifies. In fact the Hague is very careful NOT to let governments define what is considered racial or ethnic types to prevent would be strongmen like Slobo from using the exact weasel argument you are attempting here (define away actual genocide).
-Polaris
So... what's the legal definition of an ethnic or racial group as per the UN? You should have no problems finding a source for it.
IanPolaris wrote...
hoorayforicecream wrote...
So... what's the legal definition of an ethnic or racial group as per the UN? You should have no problems finding a source for it.
If a trait that a person can't control is used to justify [long list of abuses] and used as a way of seperated people for said treatment, then it qualifies. That could be skin color, eye color, ethnic background, or a whole host of other things.
-Polaris
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
When a grunt is told to jump, he does not ask "Why?" he asks "How high?" It is not the job of the Templars to question the orders of their superiors. If the order they recieve is legal, it doesn't matter two pots of ****** wether or not it fits their moral compas.
IanPolaris wrote...
TJPags wrote...
No.
First, we do not know the Divine turned her down. For all we know, a messenger with a "yes" was on his/her way.
We do know Elthina's answer and we do know that she was in close communication with the Divine (something Meredith may not have known). I find it very unlikely that the Divine would over-rule a Grand Cleric on the spot especially when she is in close communication with said Grand Cleric.
Given all that, I am 95% sure (approx) that yes, the Divine did turn Meredith down.
IanPolaris wrote...
Elthinna is the Grand Cleric - the position Meredith holds by virtue of the Chantry being bombed. Elthinna is no longer her superior. Elthinna's opinion is now moot. So there is no evidence that her superiors turned her down. There is WoG that she now has the authority herself.
False. You are reading stuff into the WoG that isn't there. Meredith can only call the Right because the Grand Cleric is dead is there isn't a clear successor. At no time does Meredith actually become Grand Cleric. She is granted this specific authority in this case (a point I still disagree with but WoG is clear) but that's not the same thing at all.
IanPolaris wrote...
And again - as I said to Lob - Meredith may use that as her excuse to call for the RoA. It need not be the reason people support it. Hell, she didn't even need to use that as a reason.
She needs to be able to justify it to Justina afterwards, and thus her declared reason is the only one that matters.
--Polaris
hoorayforicecream wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
hoorayforicecream wrote...
So... what's the legal definition of an ethnic or racial group as per the UN? You should have no problems finding a source for it.
If a trait that a person can't control is used to justify [long list of abuses] and used as a way of seperated people for said treatment, then it qualifies. That could be skin color, eye color, ethnic background, or a whole host of other things.
-Polaris
Source? You'll have to pardon me if I don't take your word for it.
LobselVith8 wrote...
louise101 wrote...
So its morally right to kill all the templars simply because the second in command didn't fly in with the (box of law and history) hammer.
If the templars' goal is the death of men, women, and children because an act no Circle mage committed? Then I'd say it's morally right to protect everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice from the templars who will kill them otherwise.
IanPolaris wrote...
hoorayforicecream wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
hoorayforicecream wrote...
So... what's the legal definition of an ethnic or racial group as per the UN? You should have no problems finding a source for it.
If a trait that a person can't control is used to justify [long list of abuses] and used as a way of seperated people for said treatment, then it qualifies. That could be skin color, eye color, ethnic background, or a whole host of other things.
-Polaris
Source? You'll have to pardon me if I don't take your word for it.
So you are claiming that governments can avoid genocide charges by defining ethniciity as they like?
Not hardly. Mage clearly is a minority group based on an unalterable Phenotype. That means killing all mages clearly falls under the UN definition of Genocide. Even KoP agreed with me there and we don't agree on much.
-Polaris
That is certainly not what I learned in boot. I learned that if I was given an order, I could stick my opinion of the order right up my own pipehole and do it. The only time I am obligated to deny an order, is if the order is illegal, such as killing PoWs or shooting unarmed civilians.IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
When a grunt is told to jump, he does not ask "Why?" he asks "How high?" It is not the job of the Templars to question the orders of their superiors. If the order they recieve is legal, it doesn't matter two pots of ****** wether or not it fits their moral compas.
That isn't always true and you learn that in boot. If an order is clearly immoral then you are legally obligated to disobey it and report it up the chain of command even if it puts your own career at risk (for example shooting helpless PoWs).
It's rare, but this sort of thing IS covered in boot.
-Polaris
Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2011 - 02:52 .
racenoun
Definition of RACE
1: a breeding stock of animals
2a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock
b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
IanPolaris wrote...
So you are claiming that governments can avoid genocide charges by defining ethniciity as they like?
Not hardly. Mage clearly is a minority group based on an unalterable Phenotype. That means killing all mages clearly falls under the UN definition of Genocide. Even KoP agreed with me there and we don't agree on much.
-Polaris
IanPolaris wrote...
Just because the DMV might not recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't fit the legal definition per the UN.
IanPolaris wrote...
From Weber's Dictionary:racenoun
Definition of RACE
1: a breeding stock of animals
2a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock
b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
Mage clearly falls under 2b.
-Polaris
Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 22 avril 2011 - 02:53 .
louise101 wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
If the templars' goal is the death of men, women, and children because an act no Circle mage committed? Then I'd say it's morally right to protect everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice from the templars who will kill them otherwise.
Since when is this the ultimate goal?
louise101 wrote...
Bull. There were templars trying to help mages if im not mistaken, albeit some were blood mages, and some templars needed gutted for obvious reasons.
The goal of an Annulment is however not to kill all mages. It is to cleanse the tower, which sadly often involves killing all the mages. The death of all the mages is simply collateral damage.LobselVith8 wrote...
louise101 wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
If the templars' goal is the death of men, women, and children because an act no Circle mage committed? Then I'd say it's morally right to protect everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice from the templars who will kill them otherwise.
Since when is this the ultimate goal?
The Right of Annulment, which is the current topic of discussion.louise101 wrote...
Bull. There were templars trying to help mages if im not mistaken, albeit some were blood mages, and some templars needed gutted for obvious reasons.
It isn't bull that the templars are killing the mages and apprentices in the Right of Annulment.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
[That is certainly not what I learned in boot. I learned that if I was given an order, I could stick my opinion of the order right up my own pipehole and do it. The only time I am obligated to deny an order, is if the order is illegal, such as killing PoWs or shooting unarmed civilians.
To be fair to Polaris, not everyone got a UN definition of Ethnicity lying around. Such definitions (those by the UN) are often very long, very boring, and very irrelevant.hoorayforicecream wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
So you are claiming that governments can avoid genocide charges by defining ethniciity as they like?
Not hardly. Mage clearly is a minority group based on an unalterable Phenotype. That means killing all mages clearly falls under the UN definition of Genocide. Even KoP agreed with me there and we don't agree on much.
-Polaris
Um... I'm not saying anything. I'm asking for independent corroboration. You know, a source. You gave me a definition, then I asked for a source. This is after you said this:IanPolaris wrote...
Just because the DMV might not recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't fit the legal definition per the UN.
That bold, underlined part. You say you know what it is. So if it's got a legal definition (which it must, since it exists), there should be an independent source somewhere that isn't you to corroborate it, yes?IanPolaris wrote...
From Weber's Dictionary:racenoun
Definition of RACE
1: a breeding stock of animals
2a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock
b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
Mage clearly falls under 2b.
-Polaris
I wasn't aware that the UN follows Weber's Dictionary for their legal definitions.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The goal of an Annulment is however not to kill all mages. It is to cleanse the tower, which sadly often involves killing all the mages. The death of all the mages is simply collateral damage.
In some cases yes. In another scenario, if I was ordered to provide support to my squad instead of rescuing civilians in the crossfire, the order could be considered immoral by some, but it is not illegal. Actually NOT following my order would be illegal.IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
[That is certainly not what I learned in boot. I learned that if I was given an order, I could stick my opinion of the order right up my own pipehole and do it. The only time I am obligated to deny an order, is if the order is illegal, such as killing PoWs or shooting unarmed civilians.
It is assumed (see Nuremberg) that an immoral order is illegal even if your country says it's not. I KNOW you learned that in boot.
-Polaris
LobselVith8 wrote...
louise101 wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
If the templars' goal is the death of men, women, and children because an act no Circle mage committed? Then I'd say it's morally right to protect everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice from the templars who will kill them otherwise.
Since when is this the ultimate goal?
The Right of Annulment, which is the current topic of discussion.louise101 wrote...
Bull. There were templars trying to help mages if im not mistaken, albeit some were blood mages, and some templars needed gutted for obvious reasons.
It isn't bull that the templars are killing the mages and apprentices in the Right of Annulment.
It is not genocide. It is purging. We've been through this. And I'm not gonna bother again.IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The goal of an Annulment is however not to kill all mages. It is to cleanse the tower, which sadly often involves killing all the mages. The death of all the mages is simply collateral damage.
The goal of the Right of Annulment is to Cleanse the tower by explicitly instructing Templars to kill all mages no matter what. That's genocide. No getting around it. It includes killing little boys and girls that are completely blameless.
-Polaris
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