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[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

AlexXIV wrote..
Well the Wardens are the only ones who can end Blights so that should give them some political leverage. Especially during Blights. But I guess maybe the Chantry would rather see Thedas swallowed by a Blight than 'releasing control' of the mages. And the Wardens probably know that all too well.

Except no one knows or buys this, so the Wardens can't use that for leverage.

Actually it is well known (even common knowledge) that the Wardens and only the Wardens can stop a blight.  What is not generally known is why that is so.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd wonder about the implications for the mage Wardens, including the Hero of Ferelden who is the Warden-Commander from the Circle of Magi, after the Circles break free from the Chantry. How are the templars and the people going to react to them? Are they going to be dragged into this issue or will their "neutrality" blanket them from both sides?

Why would it make a difference? There were mage wardens long before the circle broke. Mages leave the circle jurisdiction when they are recruited into the Wardens (e.g. Anders). Asking this is like asking "What will the templars do about the rivaini seers now that the circles have rebelled?" They were there before; why would there be reason to think they wouldn't remain there after the break as a neutral third party?

Why would it make a difference? Because the Wardens are all over Thedas in Andrastian socieities, unlike the seers in the kingdom of Rivain. That's why I asked.

[Benchmark]

IanPolaris wrote...

In Exile wrote...

AlexXIV wrote..
Well the Wardens are the only ones who can end Blights so that should give them some political leverage. Especially during Blights. But I guess maybe the Chantry would rather see Thedas swallowed by a Blight than 'releasing control' of the mages. And the Wardens probably know that all too well.

Except no one knows or buys this, so the Wardens can't use that for leverage.

Actually it is well known (even common knowledge) that the Wardens and only the Wardens can stop a blight.  What is not generally known is why that is so.

-Polaris

Isn't it simply due to the Wardens ability to slay an Arch Demon and have its soul destroy itself when it enters the Wardens body?

Edit- NM, you mean the normal Thedans don't know why.

Modifié par Benchmark, 22 avril 2011 - 09:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it is well known (even common knowledge) that the Wardens and only the Wardens can stop a blight.  What is not generally known is why that is so.

-Polaris

Isn't it simply due to the Wardens ability to slay an Arch Demon and have its soul destroy itself when it enters the Wardens body?

That is the end result. The Wardens are also immune to darkspawn disease since they already have the taint, unlike regular soldiers and warriors, which makes them an asset.

[Wulfram]

I'd expect the Wardens would be concerned about the prospect of the destruction of a major military asset and would be quietly pushing for a negotiated settlement

[Benchmark]

Wulfram wrote...

I'd expect the Wardens would be concerned about the prospect of the destruction of a major military asset and would be quietly pushing for a negotiated settlement

I expect the Wardens are sitting in their Warden offices and /headdesk-ing.

"Sure, save them from a Blight and they start killing eachother. Darkspawn live underneath you people, we don't have time for lightshows and dress up!"

Modifié par Benchmark, 22 avril 2011 - 09:50 .

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'd expect the Wardens would be concerned about the prospect of the destruction of a major military asset and would be quietly pushing for a negotiated settlement

I expect the Wardens are sitting in their Warden offices and /headdesk-ing.

"Sure, save them from a Blight and they start killing eachother. Darkspawn live underneath you people, we don't have time for lightshows and dress up!"

I'm sure the Wardens headdesk every time the Blight is over and the world forgets about the darkspawn threat. You can just imagine how much progress they would have made if they were killing the darkspawn instead of each other.

[Yakko77]

I'll never get all the Achievements in this game. I cannot side with the Templars. It makes little sense to do so as a mage and with Bethenay being a mage it seems a bit insidious to side with them over the mages. Committing atrocities and genocide is bad enough but when does with "religious" justification..... I freakin' despise that like nothing else. The Templars are little better than the al-Qaeda IMO. I think it stems from my personal beliefs on religion though more than anything. I'm not atheist but more or less agnostic or a deist.

Modifié par Yakko77, 23 avril 2011 - 03:19 .

[Urazz]

Yakko77 wrote...

I'll never get all the Achievements in this game. I cannot side with the Templars. It makes little sense to do so as a mage and with Bethenay being a mage it seems a bit insidious to side with them over the mages. Committing atrocities and genocide is bad enough but when does with "religious" justification..... I freakin' despise that like nothing else. The Templars are little better than the al-Qaeda IMO. I think it stems from my personal beliefs on religion though more than anything. I'm not atheist but more or less agnostic or a deist.

The only way I was able to side with the templars was having Bethany die at the deep roads expedition.  That way you can basically make it so Hawke becomes an orphan pretty much and can make him/her become jaded to magic after his/her mother's death

[Yakko77]

Urazz wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

I'll never get all the Achievements in this game. I cannot side with the Templars. It makes little sense to do so as a mage and with Bethenay being a mage it seems a bit insidious to side with them over the mages. Committing atrocities and genocide is bad enough but when does with "religious" justification..... I freakin' despise that like nothing else. The Templars are little better than the al-Qaeda IMO. I think it stems from my personal beliefs on religion though more than anything. I'm not atheist but more or less agnostic or a deist.

The only way I was able to side with the templars was having Bethany die at the deep roads expedition.  That way you can basically make it so Hawke becomes an orphan pretty much and can make him/her become jaded to magic after his/her mother's death

That makes sense.  Maybe when I get around to doing a warrior play through I go about it like that.

So basically you can lose all three mages.  Bethany dies in Deep Roads.  You can kill Anders and Merrill too.  I  wonder how that'll affect any future DLC content not having any magic support.

[tausra]

Not genocide, for the thousandth time. The Templars are not terrorists, they are not breaking any laws. You know who are terrorists? Blood Mages, Apostates and Anders. Kidnapping innocent mages, summoning demons, blowing up churches. Mages are worse than the Templars.

[Plaintiff]

tausra wrote...

Not genocide, for the thousandth time. The Templars are not terrorists, they are not breaking any laws. You know who are terrorists? Blood Mages, Apostates and Anders. Kidnapping innocent mages, summoning demons, blowing up churches. Mages are worse than the Templars.

Because legal is the same thing as right!

[tausra]

Plaintiff wrote...

tausra wrote...

Not genocide, for the thousandth time. The Templars are not terrorists, they are not breaking any laws. You know who are terrorists? Blood Mages, Apostates and Anders. Kidnapping innocent mages, summoning demons, blowing up churches. Mages are worse than the Templars.

Because legal is the same thing as right!

I said this once before, divorce your personal morals from the situation and understand the morals of Thedas. The majority of Thedas would say the Templars were justified. Dismissing the Morals fo another culture because they aren't yours is ethnocentric and wrong.

EDIT: Also give up the straw man, terrorism has nothing to do with right or wrong, it is about breaking the laws of a soveriegn state to instill terror and push your agenda.

Modifié par tausra, 23 avril 2011 - 05:21 .

[Yakko77]

tausra wrote...

Not genocide, for the thousandth time. The Templars are not terrorists, they are not breaking any laws. You know who are terrorists? Blood Mages, Apostates and Anders. Kidnapping innocent mages, summoning demons, blowing up churches. Mages are worse than the Templars.

The Templars were breaking laws.  They were making mages Trainquil who had been through their Harrowing if not killing them outright.  Also, I  hardly think the act of one lone (indeed terrorist mage, Anders) is justifcation for murdering ALL the mages.  To exist is not a crime or act of trrorism and if you think it is then......

Blood mages terrorists?  Some.  How many were pushed into that role at the last desperate moment as templars surrounded the mage to haul them off to be made trainquil?  What would you do?  Let them?

Apostates are terrorists?  Hardly.  Magehawke, Bethany and Merill are hardly terrorists.

Anders a terrorist?  His brutal act against the Chantry is most certainly an act of terrorism IMO.  Still, the inaction of the Grand Cleric to keep the Templars in check led to that tragic event though it did not justify it.

Edmund Burke quotes,

The tyranny of a multitude is a multiplied tyranny.

The use of force alone is but temporary. It may subdue for a
moment; but it does not remove the necessity of subduing again: and a
nation is not governed, which is perpetually to be conquered.


Edit:  Also, any acts of terrorism carried out by mages were carried out on an individual basis, not sanctioned by the Circle.  The crimes of the Templars  are justified and sanctioned (wrongly as KC  Cullen and other Templars resist) by Chantry Law. 

Modifié par Yakko77, 23 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[tausra]

Yakko77 wrote...

tausra wrote...

Not genocide, for the thousandth time. The Templars are not terrorists, they are not breaking any laws. You know who are terrorists? Blood Mages, Apostates and Anders. Kidnapping innocent mages, summoning demons, blowing up churches. Mages are worse than the Templars.

The Templars were breaking laws.  They were making mages Trainquil who had been through their Harrowing if not killing them outright.  Also, I  hardly think the act of one lone (indeed terrorist mage, Anders) is justifcation for murdering ALL the mages.  To exist is not a crime or act of trrorism and if you think it is then......

Show actual proof of this, beyond rumors from Anders, who is known to be biased. He also thought they were going to Tranquilize every mage in Thedas, but was shown to be just paranoid.

Modifié par tausra, 23 avril 2011 - 05:35 .

[Yakko77]

tausra wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

tausra wrote...

Not genocide, for the thousandth time. The Templars are not terrorists, they are not breaking any laws. You know who are terrorists? Blood Mages, Apostates and Anders. Kidnapping innocent mages, summoning demons, blowing up churches. Mages are worse than the Templars.

The Templars were breaking laws.  They were making mages Trainquil who had been through their Harrowing if not killing them outright.  Also, I  hardly think the act of one lone (indeed terrorist mage, Anders) is justifcation for murdering ALL the mages.  To exist is not a crime or act of trrorism and if you think it is then......

Show actual proof of this, beyond rumors from Anders, who is known to be biased. He also thought they were going to Tranquilize every mage in Thedas, but was shown to be just paranoid.

Did you talk to anyone but Anders in the game?  The mission Trainquility is proof that mages are being made trainquil illegally.  Anders is hardly the only one making the claim.  Also, the Trainquil Soloution was proposed but rejected.

You think the Templars are justified, I think they grossly abused thier positions.

Agree to disagree i guess.

[GSSAGE7]

tausra wrote...

Not genocide, for the thousandth time. The Templars are not terrorists, they are not breaking any laws. You know who are terrorists? Blood Mages, Apostates and Anders. Kidnapping innocent mages, summoning demons, blowing up churches. Mages are worse than the Templars.

You've hit on something that bothers me.
What exactly is the crime of most apostates, the ones that aren't blood mages?
Take Bethany for instance. Before the end of Act 1, did she do anything wrong, that would get the Templar's attention?

[hoorayforicecream]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

tausra wrote...

Not genocide, for the thousandth time. The Templars are not terrorists, they are not breaking any laws. You know who are terrorists? Blood Mages, Apostates and Anders. Kidnapping innocent mages, summoning demons, blowing up churches. Mages are worse than the Templars.

You've hit on something that bothers me.
What exactly is the crime of most apostates, the ones that aren't blood mages?
Take Bethany for instance. Before the end of Act 1, did she do anything wrong, that would get the Templar's attention?

She probably killed a good number of people by using magic while traveling with Hawke. Think templars frown on "illegal" use of magic.

[Plaintiff]

tausra wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

tausra wrote...

Not genocide, for the thousandth time. The Templars are not terrorists, they are not breaking any laws. You know who are terrorists? Blood Mages, Apostates and Anders. Kidnapping innocent mages, summoning demons, blowing up churches. Mages are worse than the Templars.

Because legal is the same thing as right!

I said this once before, divorce your personal morals from the situation and understand the morals of Thedas. The majority of Thedas would say the Templars were justified. Dismissing the Morals fo another culture because they aren't yours is ethnocentric and wrong.

EDIT: Also give up the straw man, terrorism has nothing to do with right or wrong, it is about breaking the laws of a soveriegn state to instill terror and push your agenda.

Yeah, no. My morals aren't ethnically derived, I developed them internally. I'm perfectly capable of looking at any society, fictional or otherwise and examining it critically. Bioware made the game for a modern audience, they expect us to approach it from a modern perspective.

I doubt you'd tell me to shrug and say "When in Rome" if I was witnessing a public stoning for a minor offense in Saudi Arabia.

[nos_astra]

GSSAGE7 wrote...
You've hit on something that bothers me. What exactly is the crime of most apostates, the ones that aren't blood mages? Take Bethany for instance. Before the end of Act 1, did she do anything wrong, that would get the Templar's attention?

She's living outside the Circle. That's against the law. (Wether or not you think the law is a good thing doesn't matter, the templars job is to rein force the law.)

And every time an apostate uses magic in front of witnesses this will at least create rumours, more likely screaming and accusations. And Bethany does use her magic openly.

[nos_astra]

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah, no. My morals aren't ethnically derived, I developed them internally. I'm perfectly capable of looking at any society, fictional or otherwise and examining it critically. Bioware made the game for a modern audience, they expect us to approach it from a modern perspective.

No, from the way David Gaider has commented in some of mages vs. templar threads I believe they expect us to *gasp* roleplay, as in immerse ourselves in the world they have created and play create a personality that makes sense in the context of the world. If we want to, that is. You are free to play Hawke as a self-insert, of course.

Modifié par klarabella, 23 avril 2011 - 07:04 .

[Plaintiff]

klarabella wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah, no. My morals aren't ethnically derived, I developed them internally. I'm perfectly capable of looking at any society, fictional or otherwise and examining it critically. Bioware made the game for a modern audience, they expect us to approach it from a modern perspective.

No, from the way David Gaider has commented in some of mages vs. templar threads I believe they expect us to *gasp* roleplay, as in immerse ourselves in the world they have created and play create a personality that makes sense in the context of the world. If we want to, that is. You are free play Hawke as a self-insert, of course.

Hawke is a child in an apostate mage family, and may be an apostate him/herself. If your Hawke doesn't believe the Chantry is oppressive and the treatment of mages is wrong, then why the hell did he spend his whole life trying to keep himself and/or his sister out of it? With the origin you get given an anti-Templar stance is the only thing that makes sense.

That said, roleplaying is not an exact science, I can't help seeing parallels between Thedas and my own, real world. They're there and I know it.

But I'm not roleplaying now and asking me to accept the laws of Thedas just because it's "somewhere else" is dumb. Cultural Relativism is a stupid philosophy. Believing that "right" is decided by what the majority believes at any given locality is asinine. If she insists on being that transient, she  might as well just accept that morality does not exist in objective terms and be done with it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 avril 2011 - 07:04 .

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah, no. My morals aren't ethnically derived, I developed them internally. I'm perfectly capable of looking at any society, fictional or otherwise and examining it critically. Bioware made the game for a modern audience, they expect us to approach it from a modern perspective.

No, from the way David Gaider has commented in some of mages vs. templar threads I believe they expect us to *gasp* roleplay, as in immerse ourselves in the world they have created and play create a personality that makes sense in the context of the world. If we want to, that is. You are free to play Hawke as a self-insert, of course.

By the same logic, if you kiss your homosexual partner in public, you should immediately be sentenced to the stocks (at best!) by the local inquistors (templars).  There should be no women in postions of authority anywhere (except maybe as noble trophy wives).  We should see piles of garbage and diseased people all over the place.....am I getting through here?!?

Thedas is NOT a midaeval world.  It is is a FANTASY world whose overal morality is supposed to be the same as our own so we can relate to it.  That's true btw with virtually all modern fantasy.

-Polaris

[nos_astra]

Plaintiff wrote...
Hawke is a child in an apostate mage family, and may be an apostate him/herself. If your Hawke doesn't believe the Chantry is oppressive and the treatment of mages is wrong, then why the hell did he spend his whole life trying to keep himself and/or his sister out of it? With the origin you get given an anti-Templar stance is the only thing that makes sense.

Your lack of imagination makes me sad.
Whoever said Hawke has to be self-sacrificing to a fault? My Aisling Hawke certainly loves her sister, but that doesn't mean she doesn't secretly want a normal life (just like Bethany herself does) and as an Andrastian is conflicted about whether the Chantry is right or wrong. Maybe it's wrong to hide Bethany? Aisling trusts her to control her magic, but what if Bethany fails? Just once? Maybe Aisling was always a head-strong girl with a mind of her own who rebelled against her apostate father?

Plaintiff wrote...
That said, roleplaying is not an exact science, I can't help seeing parallels between Thedas and my own, real world. They're there and I know it.

That's your loss then.

Plaintiff wrote...
But Iot roleplaying now and asking me to accept the laws of Thedas just because it's "somewhere else" is dumb. Cultural Relativism is a stupid philosophy. Believing that "right" is decided by what the majority believes at any given locality is asinine. If she insists on being that transient, she  might as well just accept that morality does not exist in objective terms and be done with it.

Which basically means you would be not a good writer or historian, because you can't not judge cultures (imginary or real) that are not as advanced as or own.

That's actually pretty close to the mindset that made the Europeans teach heathens and barbarians of the New World their ways, ruining and oppressing their culture, (the flaws as well as their uniqueness) because their laws and values are wrong and yours are superior.

Modifié par klarabella, 23 avril 2011 - 07:29 .

[IanPolaris]

Thedas is not a midaeval world and isn't even an analog to the midaeval world. Thedas and Dragon Age were written with the MODERN audience in mind with moral questions supposed to appeal to MODERN MORALITY.

Just the way it is. You will find the same is true with almost all "RPG Fantasy" worlds such as Ebberon, Forgotten Realms, Oerth (Greyhawk), Middle Earth, and many more.

-Polaris