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[Eowien Thiele]

It should come as no surprise that I can't make myself take the side of the Templars, even though this is just a game.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Eowien Thiele wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Eowien Thiele wrote...

But two things are different in Thedas. First, the law is on the side of genocide. Meaning the treatment of mages is sanctioned by Chantry law, which applies to most countries of Thedas. In Kirkwall it is the law anyway. Also in our world we have no mages, or mutants like in the X-men comics. So our laws (i.e. United Nations) apply only to non-mages.

I think it is still morally highly questionable and hard to defend. Especially if Hawke is supposed to be someone who can talk sense to both groups. I mean how are you going to convince mages to make peace if you have spearheaded an Annullment which will in future probably be seen as a crime. Assuming that the 'change' that is comming means to say bye-bye to Chantry law.

You're right, of course, that Thedas and the real world are different - not least because Thedas has non-humans, too!  The thing that gets to me in the discussions of this choice, though, is that real-world humans are making arguments for taking actions that, morally, ethically and legally in the real world, constitute genocide.  Would they use the same logic in a real-world situation?  That thought frankly worries me.

If we had mages or even x-men in our world. Yes. We don't though, so thankfully we won't ever have to worry about that kind of thing.

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Eowien Thiele wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Eowien Thiele wrote...

But two things are different in Thedas. First, the law is on the side of genocide. Meaning the treatment of mages is sanctioned by Chantry law, which applies to most countries of Thedas. In Kirkwall it is the law anyway. Also in our world we have no mages, or mutants like in the X-men comics. So our laws (i.e. United Nations) apply only to non-mages.

I think it is still morally highly questionable and hard to defend. Especially if Hawke is supposed to be someone who can talk sense to both groups. I mean how are you going to convince mages to make peace if you have spearheaded an Annullment which will in future probably be seen as a crime. Assuming that the 'change' that is comming means to say bye-bye to Chantry law.

You're right, of course, that Thedas and the real world are different - not least because Thedas has non-humans, too!  The thing that gets to me in the discussions of this choice, though, is that real-world humans are making arguments for taking actions that, morally, ethically and legally in the real world, constitute genocide.  Would they use the same logic in a real-world situation?  That thought frankly worries me.

If we had mages or even x-men in our world. Yes. We don't though, so thankfully we won't ever have to worry about that kind of thing.

Never say never.

[IanPolaris]

Eowien Thiele wrote...

You're right, of course, that Thedas and the real world are different - not least because Thedas has non-humans, too!  The thing that gets to me in the discussions of this choice, though, is that real-world humans are making arguments for taking actions that, morally, ethically and legally in the real world, constitute genocide.  Would they use the same logic in a real-world situation?  That thought frankly worries me.

Me too.  I get especially worried when the lead writer says that a group of people aren't innocent because of a shared physical characteristic and thus merit treatment that by the definitions you so kindly posted constitute genocide.  Saying that group [X] isn't really innocent because of unchangeabley physical chararistic [Y] is the first step towards genocide IRL.  [I am not criticizing what NPCs think in the game.  I am criticizing what people are saying in RL using the game as an excuse.]

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If we had mages or even x-men in our world. Yes. We don't though, so thankfully we won't ever have to worry about that kind of thing.

If X-men / super humans do show up, I'd gladly embrace them as part of human evolution. Humanity can become something more than ******-sapiens.

[Cismontane]

eowlen,
The problem is that the law of genocide as you quote did not so much emerge from the logical culmination of thousands of years of moral evolution, as much as it came at the end of a single war (WW2) which claimed 160 million human lives. The law of genocide was the direct outcome of a particular series of acts of genocide.. On a scale that Thedas couldn't even fathom.

Killing a bunch of mages is nasty and unforgivable, but it is probably not genocide.... For one thing, it is unclear whether being a Mage constitutes an ethnicity/cultural/religious grouping or simply a medical condition. Regrettably, there have been lIterally dozens of attempts by Earth leaders over the millenia to purge the disabled or mentally ill from their territories... These are atrocities, but they are not labeled as genocide as such.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If we had mages or even x-men in our world. Yes. We don't though, so thankfully we won't ever have to worry about that kind of thing.

If X-men / super humans do show up, I'd gladly embrace them as part of human evolution. Humanity can become something more than ******-sapiens.

I certainly wouldn't. It is the habit of a superior species to exterminate the inferior. It's the way of nature.

Nor do I like the idea of being dependant on mages/mutants to protect me and the rest of us "inferiors".

[Medhia Nox]

I see mages - like I see gun control laws.

According to one story - which has yet to be confirmed from a mage perspective. The mages were told they could cast a set amount of spells. We're told it was really only a form of magical flame to keep the flames of Andraste burning.

So - the mages threw a hissy fit and locked themselves in a tower. So - the Chantry said. "You want to practice violent magic? Fine - you can, in your tower... stay there."

====

I would NEVER allow mages to freely study violent spells and I would be highly suspicious of any mage who wanted to.

If mages are free - they must still be regulated.

I would suggest something like - Mages must obtain a license to study any violent spell. Use of violent spells is considered pre-meditated. Tranquility or death is the sentence for unlawful use of violent spells. Even known understanding of a violent spell would require a severe fine and possible Tranquility depending on what spells.

====

Do some of you really think that mages should just be able to run around with the ultimate concealed weapons (spells)?

If mages were to be free (as in, out of the Chantry's supervision) then their spells must be regulated.

Is that "unfair"?

====

Actually - were I a king, all magic would be strictly regulated by the state. Possession of magical tomes, scrolls, or scribed knowledge of any sort outside of state run facilities would be a capital offense. Study of magic would be highly regulated. Private tutoring would also be a capital offense.

Only mages who worked for the state could learn magic in my kingdom.

Any mage entering my kingdom must have a Writ of Passage... and they would be beholden to the laws of my land. Even those Tevinter's who seem to show up in even the most aggressively anti-mage cities - and run amok.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If we had mages or even x-men in our world. Yes. We don't though, so thankfully we won't ever have to worry about that kind of thing.

If X-men / super humans do show up, I'd gladly embrace them as part of human evolution. Humanity can become something more than ******-sapiens.

I certainly wouldn't. It is the habit of a superior species to exterminate the inferior. It's the way of nature.

Nor do I like the idea of being dependant on mages/mutants to protect me and the rest of us "inferiors".

If you are lucky the military kidnap you for experiments and you also get some super powers.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If we had mages or even x-men in our world. Yes. We don't though, so thankfully we won't ever have to worry about that kind of thing.

If X-men / super humans do show up, I'd gladly embrace them as part of human evolution. Humanity can become something more than ******-sapiens.

I certainly wouldn't. It is the habit of a superior species to exterminate the inferior. It's the way of nature.

Humanity evolved with the extinction of ******-erectus. If it has to evolve with the extinction of ******-sapiens, then it's the way of nature. I do not see why not.

That inevitable extinction however can be managed to be a long term process, without actual physical genocides (or keep that to a bare minimum).

[AlexXIV]

Cismontane wrote...

eowlen,
The problem is that the law of genocide as you quote did not so much emerge from the logical culmination of thousands of years of moral evolution, as much as it came at the end of a single war (WW2) which claimed 160 million human lives. The law of genocide was the direct outcome of a particular series of acts of genocide.. On a scale that Thedas couldn't even fathom.

Killing a bunch of mages is nasty and unforgivable, but it is probably not genocide.... For one thing, it is unclear whether being a Mage constitutes an ethnicity/cultural/religious grouping or simply a medical condition. Regrettably, there have been lIterally dozens of attempts by Earth leaders over the millenia to purge the disabled or mentally ill from their territories... These are atrocities, but they are not labeled as genocide as such.

I don't know, mages do have similar abilities and they are significantly different to non-mages. I think a normal elf has more in common with a normal human than a human with a human mage. So you can say mages are a race. Or an evolved race, compared to the non-mages. So treating them the way they are treated because they are 'born so' pretty much fills the description of genocide. And I am pretty sure there are enough templars and 'civilians' who would be more than happy if they could make mages 'disappear' for good. But there will always be people born as mages, as long as there are people. So I am pretty sure the best way would be to stop the genocide and find a better solution.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 24 avril 2011 - 09:46 .

[Cismontane]

In a way, being a Mage is a bit like being adopted or, until recently, being gay or illegimate in American society. The members of the class in question may see themselves as members of a class subject to legal persecution and discrimination in respect of one subset of what they consider to be basic human rights, but society at large may not recognize them as a real group, entitled to protection. When members of such non-groups step out of line and protest their discrimination, they are easily labeled as ingrates and amoral. it's an awful state to be stuck in, but situations like that exist even today.

[EmperorSahlertz]

AlexXIV wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If we had mages or even x-men in our world. Yes. We don't though, so thankfully we won't ever have to worry about that kind of thing.

If X-men / super humans do show up, I'd gladly embrace them as part of human evolution. Humanity can become something more than ******-sapiens.

I certainly wouldn't. It is the habit of a superior species to exterminate the inferior. It's the way of nature.

Nor do I like the idea of being dependant on mages/mutants to protect me and the rest of us "inferiors".

If you are lucky the military kidnap you for experiments and you also get some super powers.

Oh joys of joys...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Humanity evolved with the extinction of ******-erectus. If it has to evolve with the extinction of ******-sapiens, then it's the way of nature. I do not see why not.

That inevitable extinction however can be managed to be a long term process, without actual physical genocides (or keep that to a bare minimum).

I'm afraid we are far too intellegent to go extinct without a fight.

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If we had mages or even x-men in our world. Yes. We don't though, so thankfully we won't ever have to worry about that kind of thing.

If X-men / super humans do show up, I'd gladly embrace them as part of human evolution. Humanity can become something more than ******-sapiens.

I certainly wouldn't. It is the habit of a superior species to exterminate the inferior. It's the way of nature.

Nor do I like the idea of being dependant on mages/mutants to protect me and the rest of us "inferiors".

If you are lucky the military kidnap you for experiments and you also get some super powers.

Oh joys of joys...

Haha I thought you like that

Modifié par AlexXIV, 24 avril 2011 - 09:49 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

AlexXIV wrote...

Cismontane wrote...

eowlen,
The problem is that the law of genocide as you quote did not so much emerge from the logical culmination of thousands of years of moral evolution, as much as it came at the end of a single war (WW2) which claimed 160 million human lives. The law of genocide was the direct outcome of a particular series of acts of genocide.. On a scale that Thedas couldn't even fathom.

Killing a bunch of mages is nasty and unforgivable, but it is probably not genocide.... For one thing, it is unclear whether being a Mage constitutes an ethnicity/cultural/religious grouping or simply a medical condition. Regrettably, there have been lIterally dozens of attempts by Earth leaders over the millenia to purge the disabled or mentally ill from their territories... These are atrocities, but they are not labeled as genocide as such.

I don't know, mages do have similar abilities and they are significantly different to non-mages. I think a normal elf has more in common with a normal human than a human with a human mage. So you can say mages are a race. Or an evolved race, compared to the non-mages. So treating them the way they are treated because they are 'born so' pretty much fills the description of genocide. And I am pretty sure there are enough templars and 'civilians' who would be more than happy if they could make mages 'disappear' for good. But there will always be people born as mages, as long as there are people. So I am pretty sure the best way would be to stop the genocide and find a better solution.

I don't think mage constitute as a race, since it is more of genetic abnormality than a race of its own. It would have to be heriditary for it to constitute as a race.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Humanity evolved with the extinction of ******-erectus. If it has to evolve with the extinction of ******-sapiens, then it's the way of nature. I do not see why not.

That inevitable extinction however can be managed to be a long term process, without actual physical genocides (or keep that to a bare minimum).

I'm afraid we are far too intellegent to go extinct without a fight.

Or too stupid to reject the inevitable and the evolution of our own species.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Humanity evolved with the extinction of ******-erectus. If it has to evolve with the extinction of ******-sapiens, then it's the way of nature. I do not see why not.

That inevitable extinction however can be managed to be a long term process, without actual physical genocides (or keep that to a bare minimum).

I'm afraid we are far too intellegent to go extinct without a fight.

Or too stupid to reject the inevitable and the evolution of our own species.

They are not human, they are something more. Why should we accept their competition?
But then again, this discussion is pointless since evolution doesn't really work like that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Indeed and I forgot how we started

Anywho...not sure what to discuss anymore, the issue's been talked to death.

[Peer of the Empire]

1.  Genocide is happening everywhere around you in the real world.  Open your eyes

2.  The treatment of the mages is not for their physical characteristics as it is for their mental - mages are at high risk of demonic possession.  Actual killing of mages only happens when they have made themselves criminal.

3.  We can begin improving ****** sapiens by getting rid of the parasites on Wall Street and in the government.

I suspect mages will always tend toward Tevinter Imperium style society; power corrupts and mages are particularly easily corrupted.  I cannot accept as any superior sort of man anyone who is an evil demon worshipper and stereotypically an unathletic nerd, and neither will mages themselves.

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 24 avril 2011 - 10:05 .

[Eowien Thiele]

Cismontane wrote...

eowlen,
The problem is that the law of genocide as you quote did not so much emerge from the logical culmination of thousands of years of moral evolution, as much as it came at the end of a single war (WW2) which claimed 160 million human lives. The law of genocide was the direct outcome of a particular series of acts of genocide.. On a scale that Thedas couldn't even fathom.

Killing a bunch of mages is nasty and unforgivable, but it is probably not genocide.... For one thing, it is unclear whether being a Mage constitutes an ethnicity/cultural/religious grouping or simply a medical condition. Regrettably, there have been lIterally dozens of attempts by Earth leaders over the millenia to purge the disabled or mentally ill from their territories... These are atrocities, but they are not labeled as genocide as such.

I am positive that killing physically and mentally disabled people was part of the WWII genocide and that systematic attempts to purge the disabled from a society are legally classed as genocide.  And its not just the killing.  Its the forced removal of children, the segregation, the control of relationships such as marriage, and reserving the right to kill an entire type of human simply for having a physical characteristic.  

Thedas, I think, has fathomed killing of "the other" on a mass scale - the Imperium destroyed elven civilization and culture, the Exalted Marches destroyed most of the Dalish, the Qunari are a threat to all things not of the Qun...

This is a fantasy world that lets us make idealized choices and look at the idealized outcomes.  It's heavy-handed compared to the complexity of real-life decisions and I know that.  I applaud DA2 for provoking this discussion through the game.  I just wish so many comments hadn't focused on how unfortunate but necessary it is to sacrifice members of a specific group for the "good of all".  

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Indeed and I forgot how we started

Anywho...not sure what to discuss anymore, the issue's been talked to death.

We could always grab a stick and beat another dead horse. There are always more dead horses to beat.

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Indeed and I forgot how we started

Anywho...not sure what to discuss anymore, the issue's been talked to death.

We could always grab a stick and beat another dead horse. There are always more dead horses to beat.

Haven't beaten elves in a while, but they only have a minor role in DA2.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AlexXIV wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Indeed and I forgot how we started

Anywho...not sure what to discuss anymore, the issue's been talked to death.

We could always grab a stick and beat another dead horse. There are always more dead horses to beat.

Haven't beaten elves in a while, but they only have a minor role in DA2.

There's Bhelen and Loghain, two very dead horses.
Collector base, but it's still being beaten.

[Eowien Thiele]

Medhia Nox wrote...


Actually - were I a king, all magic would be strictly regulated by the state. Possession of magical tomes, scrolls, or scribed knowledge of any sort outside of state run facilities would be a capital offense. Study of magic would be highly regulated. Private tutoring would also be a capital offense.

Only mages who worked for the state could learn magic in my kingdom.

Any mage entering my kingdom must have a Writ of Passage... and they would be beholden to the laws of my land. Even those Tevinter's who seem to show up in even the most aggressively anti-mage cities - and run amok.

Hmmm...totalitarianism at its best!  Why stop at magic?  How about weapons and weapons-control? Or specific skills such as stealth?  And of course you'd have to control specific thoughts and opinions, too.  

[AlexXIV]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Indeed and I forgot how we started

Anywho...not sure what to discuss anymore, the issue's been talked to death.

We could always grab a stick and beat another dead horse. There are always more dead horses to beat.

Haven't beaten elves in a while, but they only have a minor role in DA2.

There's Bhelen and Loghain, two very dead horses.
Collector base, but it's still being beaten.

Collector bases are easy. Blow them up. Like Chanties.