291 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Circle taking Bethany while Hawke does nothing, isn't the fault of cinematics but writing.

I know, maybe i should not have posted this but its part of what is wrong in the game for me.
 
As i said the cinematics were done well but when combined with the dialogue wheel and non optional dialogue it was epic fail for me.

[John Epler]

This has been some very good discussion thus far, folks, and I want to thank you for the feedback. While I don't necessarily agree on all points (or, if I agree, there are other factors in play that prevent specific issues from being resolved with current tech), it's all been very well presented and you guys give good reasoning behind your points. So thanks.

I'm coming up with some more questions to ask you, but I invite and encourage you to continue to give feedback on the cinematics in Dragon Age 2, including the general visual 'feel' of conversations.

[dheer]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Many previous Bioware games were in my opinion implicitly third person narratives. But they didn't go so far as to demand that everyone have this view. Adding a voiceover and a paraphrase system makes the games explicitly third person. So if you always played Bioware games as a third person narrative, this doesn't bother you and is possibly seen as an improvement. If you always played Bioware games as a first person narrative, this is a radical departure.

Huh, I hadn't really thought of it that way before. That's a hell of a good point. It must be why I feel so disconnected from Hawke as opposed to my Warden. Hawke ended up feeling like a customizable npc.

Whether in a pc game or pnp, when i'm role playing, I am acting, for lack of a better word, as the protagonist. DA2 felt like Hawke was an marionette and I was more a passive director than player.

[Tirigon]

The main reason I play games is that movies bore me, unless I view them with friends, consuming junkfood and great amounts of alcoholic beverages in the process.

So I would prefer if the both would remain different things, thank you very much.

[Haexpane]

Quick Fix

Add Nick Cage to DA3, have him shout "Whoah, AWESOME" for every special attack.

Then games will be EXACTLY like movies today

[22nd MadJack]

JohnEpler wrote...

I've actually got a question for you guys - what scenes in DA2 did you feel took too much control away from you as a player? We've actually taken things out of scenes before because we felt that some players might look at it and say 'Hey, my Hawke would never do that!' so I'm interested in hearing where you felt we missed the mark in DA2. The more specific the examples, the better!

1.  Any dialog which Hawke spoke automatically based on past conversations.
2.  Avelines Date mission.  Particularly tedious scenes in the Hanged Man auto-talking to sideburns joe.

You absolutely should not take complete control away from the character.  Ever.  If you must provide cinematics, allow a lot of interaction via the wheel, to the point that the player feels he/she is in control of the cinematic. 

[JoshPloof]

I agree 100% that a lot of games now a days are starting to become "interactive movies" Prime example is Final Fantasy 13, it was 80% cutscenes, 20% of completely linear gameplay. Dragon Age 2 wasn't THAT bad in all honesty, there was more gameplay than cutscenes, but I think the cut scenes were a bit overdone for the amount of gameplay this game had. It's definitely heading in the direction of interactive movie more than Origins was though. I miss old games where you actually had to PLAY them, not watch them.

[Corker]

JohnEpler wrote...

I've actually got a question for you guys - what scenes in DA2 did you feel took too much control away from you as a player? We've actually taken things out of scenes before because we felt that some players might look at it and say 'Hey, my Hawke would never do that!' so I'm interested in hearing where you felt we missed the mark in DA2. The more specific the examples, the better!

I was a bit flummoxed by my post-Isabela recruitment scene.  She harangues Corff for a drink then hits up my aggressive Hawke for a round.  I'm thinking that my Hawke is thinking, "Why yes, I will buy this woman a drink, thus earning goodwill and a chance at hot makeouts later."  I wait for the wheel to pop up so I can pick this, but instead, Hawke gruffly auto-informs Isabela she can buy her own drink.  And the scene ended.



I will freely admit this was not an OMG! Huge! Big! Deal!, but it did leave me wondering exactly what the *point* of the scene was if I wasn't to have any input at all. 

(Re: the hitchcock zooms... I'm hardly a theater person, and I really noticed them, especially the one on Hawke in All That Remains.  I think I gigglesnorted, which is not exactly the player reaction you want right at that moment. There was a late game one... on Meredith? Can't recall.  The technique called attention to itself a little too loudly in those cases, IMO.)

[maleficent_mdjsj]

Where's Legacy of Kain when you want it? Or maybe Beyond Good and Evil 2? I think when it comes to the whole movie/game issue these days we need companies to go back to their roots (I am looking at you SquareEnix). I am worried about this problem with Mass Effect 3. It has made me a little aprehensive. We need more Twisted Metal and less Final Fantasy XIII. I am a Final Fantasy fan and I find this straining at my nerves.

P.S. Final Fantasy VI is still by far the best of them all.

[yoshibb]

Just watched this for the first time. I think video games are stuck between being a toy and being a legitimate medium. Part of the reason for that I think is that video games have evolved so fast from super mario to what we have now. My parents just ten to fifteen years ago were buying me games where the most complex thing was whether to use weapon A or weapon B. As a result, it seems like the older generation just doesn't understand what modern gaming is. I know I try to explain to my parents the complexity of my games and they look at me as if I'm crazy. I've never been able to have a serious discussion about topics that come up in games like I do with movies because many people don't seem to be able to comprehend that we've moved past Legend of Zelda or Sonic the Hedgehog levels.

As a result, even if you attempt to make a game like a film, it's not going to do anything but hurt the medium and until video games are more accepted, the critics won't treat it like a great film. All that said, I don't believe Dragon Age 2 stepped into pure cinematics mode like a Metal Gear Solid does.

[fchopin]

maleficent_mdjsj wrote...

P.S. Final Fantasy VI is still by far the best of them all.

I have not played FFVI but my favourite is FFXII, it's also similar to DAO.

[Maria Caliban]

Sex Scenes and Aftermath

These were excellent. BioWare seems to have gotten flack for not showing skin, but in my opinion, if a sex scene is simply erotic or titillating, you're doing something wrong. Each of them are different and in character, something ME and DA:O failed to do with their one-size fits all sex scenes. The animation and music both gave me a good idea of what sex with the character would be like.
-----



This is one of the better cut-scenes, in my opinion. If you read Understanding Comics, McCloud talks about how Western art is very focused on cramming in details and impressing with complexity. I like this scene because it's more relaxed then most (It's a lady walking down stairs, to a tree, and then to the PC) but still very engaging and evocative. The music was also nice.
-----



Grief

Dragon Age II has a number of scenes where a character dies and another character shows their grief. I'd say the best of the two were Merehari's death and the Viscount's reaction to Seamus' death.

One of the big differences between acting for theater and for a movie/TV show is emoting. If you whisper in a play, you have to whisper so loudly that someone at the back of the theatre can hear you. If you want to show emotion, you need to use loud body language so someone who's 300 feet away from you can tell if you're happy, sad, or whatever.

Film, on the other hand, gives you close-ups and face shots, so you can be very subtle. Spock is a great example of this. If you watch an old episode of Star Trek, Nimoy constantly reacts but he does so in a very subtle way that still gives him the appearance of being unemotional.

I think video games would benefit from studying play actors and how they convey emotions and response moreso than film actors. Those big, melodramatic movements can add a great deal of splash to what's going on. There's always the danger of coming off as silly, but I'd say it's actually more forgiving than subtle facial gestures.




I have more but I have got to go.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 19 avril 2011 - 11:05 .

[The Angry One]

That Sheploo face haunts my nightmares.

[man giraffe dog2]

I'll give my 2 centz. *minor spoilers*
While I thought the general cinematics were good I'd probably say there could of many been more/slight better 'reward' cinematics'. For example  in your fight against the final bad guy at the end Hawke somewhat feels like a bystander. The current cinematic was quite good but I would have prefered maybe it started off showing a 1v1 where Hawke gets the upper hand and the boss then goes and does what happens as it is now.
I also particularly enjoyed the death cinematic of the high dragon in act 3.

As for as conversations go, I liked the fact sometimes Hawke used their body language (such as opening arms) and it felt appropriate however the actually action felt... I don't know... clunky might be the word, something didn't quite feel right. Don't know if this is more an animation thing.

Another thing I liked was how mage Hawke had that hand glow they used to prove they were a mage (ignoring they were in robes and had a staff but that's a different point), would of liked to maybe to see more of this sort of stuff. Some more mage-specific cinematic action I think would have been nice, for example when attacked in the quanri camp Hawke could have deflected the spears with magic, but I guess that's maybe more of a time constraint issue.

I'll post again if I think of anything more.

[Sylvius the Mad]

JohnEpler wrote...

(or, if I agree, there are other factors in play that prevent specific issues from being resolved with current tech)

All of my issues can be resolved by reverting to NWN level of tech.

I know you'd never do that, but given that you could that means there aren't actual technical limitations that prevent you from doing what I want.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 19 avril 2011 - 11:41 .

[rinslet luftkin]

*spoilers*

After the fight with the Rock Wraith and also in the final battle against the Harvester, the death scene cinematic was nice...but Hawke's expression afterwards was kinda off. It was like a 'meh, nothing new, let's move on' face. That totally did not make me feel the importance of the fight that I just had, as he/she treated it as if it was all one big 'meh'.
Dunno, my first thought after a battle like that would be to check on my teammates (maybe add a scene where Hawke can just do a quick sweep with the eyes over the status of the squad, to see if they're alright).
Just my two cents:?

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

This is one of the many illustrations why I dislike the camera focus straight on my character face during conversation. This facial expression is not my character.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 20 avril 2011 - 12:30 .

[Boiny Bunny]

JohnEpler wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Heres another case of cinematics taking over.

Hawke goes somewhere expecting a fight. The cinematic marches him into the most tatically disadvantagous position possible.

Did you have specific examples of this? I know we were cognizant of this being a huge complaint about DA:O, and we tried to address it wherever possible in DA2. There are a couple of instances I can think of where this might have happened (the skeletons in the cave in Act of Mercy being the one that stands out) but I didn't feel that we did this too often in DA2, particularly as compared to DA:O.

This is a very good one - and a problem that Origins had on occasion as well.

Any fight in the game that involves a conversation first, will automatically teleport you and all of your party members to the positions that they were occupying during the talking scene.  This is great for cinematic purposes (obviously ), but when the fight starts, Hawke and company often happen to be standing right smack bang in the middle of a whole army of enemies.

One case of this I can remember which particularly bothered me, especially given that I thought the conversation was unimportant and the fight was exceptionally difficult (well on Nightmare anyway) was the Brekker fight at the end of the 'Inside Job' quest.  This fight has FOUR assassin units, which are all placed close enough to do their backstab move almost instantly upon the fight starting.

[Foolsfolly]

This is one of the many illustrations why I dislike the camera focus straight on my character face during conversation. This facial expression is not my character.

Oh come on. That facial expression is ghastly and terrible. It's unintentionally hilarious. When the PC emotes correctly (like the Love Interest that comes to your bedroom after a certain Act 2 event, you know the one) then it works.

[Foolsfolly]

JohnEpler wrote...

This has been some very good discussion thus far, folks, and I want to thank you for the feedback. While I don't necessarily agree on all points (or, if I agree, there are other factors in play that prevent specific issues from being resolved with current tech), it's all been very well presented and you guys give good reasoning behind your points. So thanks.

I'm coming up with some more questions to ask you, but I invite and encourage you to continue to give feedback on the cinematics in Dragon Age 2, including the general visual 'feel' of conversations.

You're a cool dev.

Now, for the rest of you ladies and gents, this post will contain spoilers because I can't get specific without it. But if you're reading this thread you've likely beaten the game anyway. Or at least you should before coming on here and talking about it.

There are some really good story cinematics in the game, the Keeper arriving in the Alienage is a perfect example of that. I really loved how the city elves bowed and showed respect to the Keeper. Nice little quiet moment in the game where nothing massive is happening.

But there is one cutscene where I was taken right out of the game. It's actually ridiculous.

SPOILERS:

I'm speaking of Merrill's Act 3 companion quest. In the quest you fight the possessed character (you know the one) and when the fight's over the character says the demon's gone. You're given the choice to believe the character or disbelieve. When you disbelieve, Merrill murder knife's the character. When you believe the character Murder Knife's Merrill.

Now the first time I played the game I disbelieved because I'm no fool. But when I roleplayed a character who did believe the character....well there's Merrill getting shanked. And she's fine. The cutscene after the brief fight plays and Merrill's not even wounded and holding her side. She's fine. She was murder knife'd and she's acting like the character merely poked her in the stomach with a finger.

I do not believe that cutscene had any weight. If there was no option to have Merrill killed there (or seriously wounded like out of the party and a different follow-up cutscene) then the possessed character should have knocked Merrill down. Threw her against a wall. Something like that. Getting knifed throughout the game seems to be a deadly thing and this occasion breaks that.

In my opinion.

[rfloresx]

dheer wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Many previous Bioware games were in my opinion implicitly third person narratives. But they didn't go so far as to demand that everyone have this view. Adding a voiceover and a paraphrase system makes the games explicitly third person. So if you always played Bioware games as a third person narrative, this doesn't bother you and is possibly seen as an improvement. If you always played Bioware games as a first person narrative, this is a radical departure.

Huh, I hadn't really thought of it that way before. That's a hell of a good point. It must be why I feel so disconnected from Hawke as opposed to my Warden. Hawke ended up feeling like a customizable npc.

Whether in a pc game or pnp, when i'm role playing, I am acting, for lack of a better word, as the protagonist. DA2 felt like Hawke was an marionette and I was more a passive director than player.

Maybe the sad truth is that it is purely personal preference..

I mean when you talked about Hawk as a "customizable NPC", I actually
strongly prefer it that way.. I love the idea of playing the games as a
sort of passive director rather than feeling like I'm "in the game"...

And at the same time I do see the appeal of being placed into a main
character's shoes.. I loved that aspect in the Elder Scrolls games...

I guess it just depends on the game and the person playing it...

Modifié par rfloresx, 20 avril 2011 - 04:16 .

[DanielleAsher]

yoshibb wrote...

Just watched this for the first time. I think video games are stuck between being a toy and being a legitimate medium. Part of the reason for that I think is that video games have evolved so fast from super mario to what we have now. My parents just ten to fifteen years ago were buying me games where the most complex thing was whether to use weapon A or weapon B. As a result, it seems like the older generation just doesn't understand what modern gaming is. I know I try to explain to my parents the complexity of my games and they look at me as if I'm crazy. I've never been able to have a serious discussion about topics that come up in games like I do with movies because many people don't seem to be able to comprehend that we've moved past Legend of Zelda or Sonic the Hedgehog levels.

As a result, even if you attempt to make a game like a film, it's not going to do anything but hurt the medium and until video games are more accepted, the critics won't treat it like a great film. All that said, I don't believe Dragon Age 2 stepped into pure cinematics mode like a Metal Gear Solid does.

I have to disagree completely.  The cinematic/story experience that a game can create can be many times more engrossing and evocative than movies.  It just takes great directors to do this.  The Metal Gear and Half-life games are excellent examples of a near perfect merging of complex gameplay elements with cinematic and narrative elements and stand as excellent works of art that evoke powerful emotions.  I think that this is where DA2 tries to have its cake and eat it to, DA2, instead of going fully Hawke is like solid snake and constiricting Hawkes gameplay actions to a story world they tried to make a beat'em up half assed rpg with a story grafted on as an afterthought.

[Foolsfolly]

Hawke, by definition, cannot ever be a "customizable NPC." NPC stands for Non-Player-Character. Hawke is a PC.

Everyone has their own opinions but you cannot say Hawke is a customizable NPC anymore than you can say a car is a truck.

[rfloresx]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Hawke, by definition, cannot ever be a "customizable NPC." NPC stands for Non-Player-Character. Hawke is a PC.

Everyone has their own opinions but you cannot say Hawke is a customizable NPC anymore than you can say a car is a truck.

He said it FELT like Hawk was a customizable npc, emphasizing the fact that you had less control over him...

Even so, you are right.   By definition, it was the wrong word to use...

[Cutlasskiwi]

I must say that I'm blown away by the facial expressions in the game. Whoever worked on Fenris and Varric did a excellent job. I did not expect much from Hawke due to the fact that s/he is customizable and will have a different look for almost everyone, if they're not using a preset/default face. I've played through the game a few times now and almost every time it actually looks good and believable when my Hawke's convey something with an expression. Even sadness during All That Remains! Add to that excellent voice acting and by the end of that quest I had to stop for a while, lean back and say 'wow'.
Something that made me a very happy player.