291 réponses à ce sujet

[Kilshrek]

ejoslin wrote...

This actually is a bad example because it highlights how different personalities are the basic speech checks.  If you play an aggressive Hawke, he will take you at your word and give you the information you need.  A snarky or nice Hawke can't pull it off. 

I do agree about Merrill.

But I don't want to play as an aggressive/douchey Hawke just so I can get the clown to "see reason". What about a cunning or strength check? It makes no sense that a snarky Hawke can't "charm" him into spilling the beans. The dialogue wheel can be made to accomodate those options since there were Paragon/Renegade options in the ME 1 wheel. So, again, why not?

[ejoslin]

Kilshrek wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

This actually is a bad example because it highlights how different personalities are the basic speech checks.  If you play an aggressive Hawke, he will take you at your word and give you the information you need.  A snarky or nice Hawke can't pull it off. 

I do agree about Merrill.

But I don't want to play as an aggressive/douchey Hawke just so I can get the clown to "see reason". What about a cunning or strength check? It makes no sense that a snarky Hawke can't "charm" him into spilling the beans. The dialogue wheel can be made to accomodate those options since there were Paragon/Renegade options in the ME 1 wheel. So, again, why not?

There are other options at other points that work for different personality types.  It's actually a nice change from a coercion "autowin" stat.  But there are plenty of ways of getting that information as well.  I can think of other conversations where dialogs appear (or not) depending on your personality type.

Hmmm, to get back on topic, cinematics that took me out of the game...

Hawke's face when Isabela first propositioned her.  How Hawke reacted was NOT how I reacted.

It's hard to come up with specific examples so I guess I'm not very helpful here!

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2011 - 03:17 .

[Aratark]

WARNING: Second half of this post will contain spoilers.

I feel there were a couple of spots could have done with more cut-scenes/cinematics, to try and expurgate some of the complaints.

With the fed-ex quests, for the first one, or maybe first one in each act, you have a small cut-scene come up if you have a specific party member with you while holding the item. For example, Eustace's Pommel (think that is the one I mean), if Aveline is in your party, she knows that one of her guardsmen had the pommel break off her sword while on patrol somewhere, so she can lead you to Eustace to turn it in. You are then at least giving the illusion of your party members having an outside life and not being dependent on Hawke for everything and as you have party members in each part of Kirkwall, bar the Gallows, it can allow people to rationalise how Hawke knows where to go to hand stuff in. You may even need to have a party member who is based in the right part of town present before the arrow shows up. That is how I internally reconciled knowing where to go for them, but the little cutscenes may help other people.

*******Spoilers below***********

The other place I would have liked to see more scenes were between acts to try and bring the story together. Between Act 1 and two, you could probably get away with more generic scenes, for example a little one of Varric looking for Bertrand, one of Hawke talking to the Viscount to get the mansion back, one of Merrill doing something with the eluvian. You wouldn't need to show one for each character, maybe just show a couple of Hawke ones, one of Hawke interacting with a couple of team mebers and then a mix of the other characters, maybe for example the ones with highest friendship and rivalry or the ones who have been used in the party the most.

Between Act 2 and 3 some cutscenes to reconcile the story in the 2 Acts would have helped. At that point you've done most of the Mage or Templar quests, so you have pretty much pinned your colours to the mast one way or the other, so starting with a scene that shows the rest of the Qunari being kicked out of Kirkwall, one of Meredith taking power, maybe one of the Templars slowly consolidating that power and beating down on the Mages some more, then get more specific with Hawke happening on one of these incidents and depending on past actions helping out one side or the other.

Something like that may also help to show the passing of time between Acts, something I know has been mentioned on here as not necessarily coming across that well right now.

The cut-scene of Meredith taking control could also smooth out some complaints that I've heard that the Qunari threat was not something that should have led to her taking power. Why was there not some sort of contingency for when a Viscount died without an heir? There were still living members of the nobility, why did they not move up? If the Chantry were going to take over, Templars purely being the Chantry's martial arm, why was it not Elthina or someone she appointed? If it had to be a martial leader, why not Aveline as a member of the civil guard rather than a religious guard?


*******Spoilers end********* (hopefully)

with regard to losing player agency, to tell a story sometimes this needs to happen. There are only so many ways within this medium to move the story on. Table-top RPG games are limited purely by the imagination of the GM, and how well he can react to the players ingenuity, when you lose the human mind behind a response to an action, with there being a few pre-programmed responses to certain actions you notice the funneling more, especially when it is done through cut-scenes. A good gm will just adapt what they have in front of them, to try and shape the story, the rigid nature of a video game doesn't allow that right now to the same degree.

Modifié par Aratark, 21 avril 2011 - 07:12 .

[Gleym]

DA2 and ME2 felt like Michael Bay movies. Lots of big booms, T&A, retarded action sequences, and a weak main plot padded out by a thousand little plots that are either incoherent, or have little to do with the main plot but end up tied into it in a painfully forced fashion.

[v_ware]

Gleym wrote...

DA2 and ME2 felt like Michael Bay movies. Lots of big booms, T&A, retarded action sequences, and a weak main plot padded out by a thousand little plots that are either incoherent, or have little to do with the main plot but end up tied into it in a painfully forced fashion.

At least the gameplay mechanics in ME2 were actually good.

And there was a main plot in ME2: destroy the collectors. Seriously, try to give me the overaching story and goal that drives DA2 forward. NONE. It's a ffin ememorpugger.

Modifié par v_ware, 21 avril 2011 - 09:56 .

[Skokes]

One thing that isn't communicated terribly well in either Dragon Age game is the passage of time (I'd say this is true of the Mass Effect games, as well, though it's less noticeable there, especially given the episodic structure of the second title). In Dragon Age II, where the passage of time is of overt thematic concern, this weakens the narrative significantly.

Film, on the other hand, often handles the passage of time quite well (out of necessity). So temporal transitions are something I'd like to see handled a bit better in BioWare games.

There are a few spots in DAII where the characters enter a mansion or dungeon at night and emerge during the day; even a small thing like this does wonders. The transition to the final dungeon of Act I, however, goes the "It'll take two weeks!" **bam, we're there!** route, which feels forced. A scene without dialogue in which the characters move along a dark cave could have done a lot to establish the passage of time. Even better would have been a similar scene with banter between whoever you've taken along. Better even than that would be some manner of small, playable camp scene.

We don't need to walk every step of the Deep Roads ourselves (a la Origins), but jumping directly into the depths of the dungeon without much in the way of context is disorienting (and I imagine especially so for new players).

[Eshme]

What i had thought for myself, games are trying to become what they can never be. DA2 and Masseffect are Biowares contribution to that.

I believe this so called inferiority complex is down to consoles whose players play on Televisions and may have someone "watching". Dying in video games for them is "interupting" the experience and gamedevs then create movie like experiences which create narrow gameplay and interuptions become even less attractive when the options vanish from games.

The deal with DA2 is that the combat has been degraded to be fluid transitions from scene to scene. "Combat must be faster" we all see that argument in various threads.
The question is what is the key element of DA2 now. The legacy of Dragon Age destroys this system, because what is the adventurous part worth if walking from enemy wave to wave. The game system hasnt changed argument kicked it in the Ass. It just makes obvious the 2 incompatibly things of movies and games.
Development was not long enough to see that. However is that a good thing? The next step will likely be to remove the incompatible legacy from Dragon Age. All worthwhile RPG elements, at least this will give it room to be an interactive movie next time. See Masseffect2.

[AkiKishi]

Skokes wrote...

One thing that isn't communicated terribly well in either Dragon Age game is the passage of time (I'd say this is true of the Mass Effect games, as well, though it's less noticeable there, especially given the episodic structure of the second title). In Dragon Age II, where the passage of time is of overt thematic concern, this weakens the narrative significantly.

Film, on the other hand, often handles the passage of time quite well (out of necessity). So temporal transitions are something I'd like to see handled a bit better in BioWare games.

There are a few spots in DAII where the characters enter a mansion or dungeon at night and emerge during the day; even a small thing like this does wonders. The transition to the final dungeon of Act I, however, goes the "It'll take two weeks!" **bam, we're there!** route, which feels forced. A scene without dialogue in which the characters move along a dark cave could have done a lot to establish the passage of time. Even better would have been a similar scene with banter between whoever you've taken along. Better even than that would be some manner of small, playable camp scene.

We don't need to walk every step of the Deep Roads ourselves (a la Origins), but jumping directly into the depths of the dungeon without much in the way of context is disorienting (and I imagine especially so for new players).

Time in games tends to be event based. ME 2's when you do X number of mission you get the Horizon brief.
Time in DA2 does not work because beyond being told that you just spent 3 years doing nothing so you get get to the next no win situation, the game never changes to reflect this.

There are exceptions. Fallout had a clock and you had a certain number of days to finish the game before you failed. Traveling, healing etc.All took time so every choice you made became important.
Atelier Rorona is a more recent example from Japan. You are set tasks by the kingdom and need to complete them or they close your alchemy shop. Each time you travel it takes a set number of days. Events are also callender based so if you are out of town on a certain day no event for you. Making things also takes time and hps it's quite fun trying to balance everything and still have a social life (in game).

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 avril 2011 - 02:43 .

[Haexpane]

v_ware wrote...

Gleym wrote...

DA2 and ME2 felt like Michael Bay movies. Lots of big booms, T&A, retarded action sequences, and a weak main plot padded out by a thousand little plots that are either incoherent, or have little to do with the main plot but end up tied into it in a painfully forced fashion.

At least the gameplay mechanics in ME2 were actually good.

And there was a main plot in ME2: destroy the collectors. Seriously, try to give me the overaching story and goal that drives DA2 forward. NONE. It's a ffin ememorpugger.

I mean, saying ME2 is better than DA2 is like saying Rebecca Black is better than Justin Bieber... fans of *real music* don't care either way

Now replace *real music* with *real RPGs* and there you have it.  1 Non RPG against another Non RPG = IDC

[Aratark]

Haexpane wrote...



I mean, saying ME2 is better than DA2 is like saying Rebecca Black is better than Justin Bieber... fans of *real music* don't care either way

Now replace *real music* with *real RPGs* and there you have it.  1 Non RPG against another Non RPG = IDC

My one and only question is what is a "real" rpg?  I know folk who table top who see anything that isn't table topping as real.  Other people see anything that isn't on a pc as not real.  Is a JRPG real? Does it have to have heavy combat orientation?  In which case the Cthulu table top stuff isn't a real rpg, combat in that is non-existent in a properly focused group.  Do you need loads of stats, encumbrance or a myriad of other things that are in some games and not others?  (Please note the secondary questions are purely to give some idea of the variety of stuff available in different systems, not questions to be answered, cos I only had one of them )

[TEWR]

fchopin wrote...

maleficent_mdjsj wrote...

P.S. Final Fantasy VI is still by far the best of them all.

I have not played FFVI but my favourite is FFXII, it's also similar to DAO.

A lot of people I've seen hated FFXII because it wasn't a "save the world from this massive evil thingy".

Personally, I loved it. It was a political Final Fantasy, and that's what made it awesome. Although, FFX definitely had the best soundtrack.

I'm torn between which FF is my favorite, X or XII. I loved XIII's story, but it was too linear. The sidequests came in so late that they seemed little more than an afterthought.

[aries1001]

In one the other threads in the other forums (I think it was in the character forum?) David Gaider explained why less is more in terms of conversation and writing and talking to characters; why less isn't more in terms of cinematics, I don't know.

As for examples, I have only one (from origins). When you first meet Zevran, he is out to get you, but you know this already, because you have watched a cutscene in which important people talk about -ahem- getting rid of you (or rather your character in the game). This irritated me, because I clearly remember back in BG1 that the assasin at the Friendly Arm Inn was out to get you as well. And it was really a surprise to me the firs time around. I thought to myself - what is going on here - and I played through the game to find out. Not so much in DA: Origins as this cinematic cutscene really sets things up for meeting Zevran. On the other hand, Zevran is a recruitable character, so you might kill him (in the game), but this could easily have been prevented if you did get him to yield to you...

Back on topic a bit with the whole games aren't movies, I agree. Games are not movies, but neither are they books. I see games as a medium for great storytelling where I as the player influence decisions and characters in the game. Might I remind you that The Princess Bride (king's quest 4, I think) both had wonderfull graphics, as well as a romance, as well as voiced characters. And this is game from, I think 1988 or so? Granted it is an old adventure (puzzle) game, but still, it proves that games way back then also could spin an interesting yarn (tale).

What has happened over the last twenty years is that games have become mainstream, games like Call of Duty and Crysis try to be like movies with great cinematics - because they want to tell a tale, tell a story with a fixed outcome. And this means that player agency may be limited or not be there at all.
For DA2, maybe it would have been better if there was some sort of dialogue between Hawke and Anders where Hawke could try to influence Anders, the point being that player agency need to be in here - to at least give the illusion of a choice. And just because you can blow up something in ME1, doesn't mean that it is a good idea to do something similar in DA2...

Off topic a bit: I've seen people complaining about the lack of compromise solutions in DA2; however, people, maybe even the same people?, did complain about the compromise solutions in DA: Origins.

[Skokes]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Time in games tends to be event
based. ME 2's when you do X number of mission you get the Horizon brief.

Time in DA2 does not work because beyond being told that you just
spent 3 years doing nothing so you get get to the next no win situation,
the game never changes to reflect this.

There are exceptions.
Fallout had a clock and you had a certain number of days to finish the
game before you failed. Traveling, healing etc.All took time so every
choice you made became important.
Atelier Rorona is a more recent
example from Japan. You are set tasks by the kingdom and need to
complete them or they close your alchemy shop. Each time you travel it
takes a set number of days. Events are also callender based so if you
are out of town on a certain day no event for you. Making things also
takes time and hps it's quite fun trying to balance everything and still
have a social life (in game).

Oh, there are plenty of games that do interesting things with time, or where time exists as a gameplay element, but that's not really what I'm addressing. I'm merely saying that the game lacks much in the way of cinematic communication of the passage of time.

Modifié par Skokes, 22 avril 2011 - 07:27 .

[Haexpane]

Aratark wrote...

Haexpane wrote...



I mean, saying ME2 is better than DA2 is like saying Rebecca Black is better than Justin Bieber... fans of *real music* don't care either way

Now replace *real music* with *real RPGs* and there you have it.  1 Non RPG against another Non RPG = IDC

My one and only question is what is a "real" rpg?  I know folk who table top who see anything that isn't table topping as real.  Other people see anything that isn't on a pc as not real.  Is a JRPG real? Does it have to have heavy combat orientation?  In which case the Cthulu table top stuff isn't a real rpg, combat in that is non-existent in a properly focused group.  Do you need loads of stats, encumbrance or a myriad of other things that are in some games and not others?  (Please note the secondary questions are purely to give some idea of the variety of stuff available in different systems, not questions to be answered, cos I only had one of them )

I was too vague.

A "real" western party based fantasy setting RPG videogame.  non videogames need not apply.  JRPGs need not apply.

I'm talking "Real RPG" in the spirit of RPGs that Baldur's Gate once thrived.

• DA2 isn't a "real RPG" because all they did was speed up the combat, but the AI is still broken. 
• Instead of fixing inventory management, they locked it.
• Instead of fixing character growth, they just changed the graphics and made it the EXACT SAME as Final Fantasy 12
• Instead of fixing the party tactics, they just zoomed in the camera
• Instead of fixing the world map, they just removed it and turned it into Mass Effect 2 mission select
• Instead of fixing the trash loot tables, no wait, they didnt' fix that!
• Instead of a cliche story about saving the world, they made a high fantasy soap opera
• Instead of elves looking too human, they turned them into ugly big nosed whiners
• Instead of balancing classes and builds, they just removed a bunch
• INstead of creating nice looking armor that works on various characters, they just locked all the graphics Final Fantasy X style

[nijnij]

The first example I can think of is the final blows. Yes, in Origins, it wasn't really you controlling the character anymore, but it felt so because you could rotate the camera and zoom and see it from other companions' perspectives, and so it felt interactive, while in DA2 it's really a sit-and-watch thing. Besides, the companion doing the animation in Origins was the one giving the actual final blow in-game, while in DA2 it's Hawke no matter what, sometimes with a spell you don't even have.

Modifié par nijnij, 26 avril 2011 - 12:18 .

[darrylzero]

JohnEpler wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Heres another case of cinematics taking over.

Hawke goes somewhere expecting a fight. The cinematic marches him into the most tatically disadvantagous position possible.

Did you have specific examples of this? I know we were cognizant of this being a huge complaint about DA:O, and we tried to address it wherever possible in DA2. There are a couple of instances I can think of where this might have happened (the skeletons in the cave in Act of Mercy being the one that stands out) but I didn't feel that we did this too often in DA2, particularly as compared to DA:O.

I'm a little late to this party, and it may be that my problem is more of a writing problem or a gameplay problem, but cinematics are certainly a part of it.  In any case, I think the inability to use stealth outside of combat -- and the ways in which cinematics ended up making it exceptionally clear that Hawke was not even trying to be discreet in any way shape or form -- was extremely frustrating. 

The most egregious example was the beginning of "Best Served Cold," where you were supposed to sneak up on the conspirators in Hightown and listen in.  Even with carefully holding your party members back and maximizing the amount of stealth you had left on the clock, you triggered a cut scene in which Hawke & Co all just stumble into the middle of the square in plain view.  It's ridiculous!  I ran into a similar situation in "No Rest for the Wicked."  After trailing Isabela to the warehouse, I carefully snuck around the side, picking locks and disarming traps to avoid the main entrance.  Then, I stealthily crept into the main room and all of the sudden there's a cinematic in which Hawke & Co spring right into the middle of the action, happily giving up the element of surprise as if it weren't even something to value (which, arguably, it's not, given the way that waves of enemies function).  It's just no fun.

While I think the core of my objection is about gameplay, cinematics were a big part of this problem.  Compare the above with "Secret Rendezvous."  There, no cinematic triggers.  This means that you can sneak up on them, though it's not easy, listen to get the information you need, and run away.  They still notice you and attack, but I would much rather see my character attempt this stealth and fail (though not entirely, as you can avoid fighting everyone at once this way) than to see a cinematic effectively tell me that I had not even attempted to be discreet.  The situation in "Secret Rendezvous" frustrated me as well but much less so. 

While I can see the dilemma you guys found yourself in with regard to "No Rest for the Wicked," because you had some lines you wanted Isabela to be able to say, I think reworking them so that they belonged after Velasco is defeated could probably work, while maintaining greater player agency.  With regard to "Best Served Cold," I don't even really see what value is added by the cut scene.  Certainly, one of the conspirators hearing something and people fleeing would be enough.  No need for my party to go blithely tromping into the middle of everything.  This had consequences too, because I was throwing my hands up in disgust at the railroading for the entire length of the quest up until the end.  However, it wasn't the railroading that was bothering me -- I'm actually pretty satisfied by the ways in which Grace had been manipulating the situation -- but the inability to approach the situation in a reasonable way.

Basically, I don't require the ability to play a character who is an expert at stealth.  In fact, I like realistic limits to how stealthy you can be.  However, it kills me to play a character who makes no effort to remain undetected at key moments, because I can't imagine any character I would want to play behaving that way.  The use of cinematics is frequently the difference between the two.

Modifié par darrylzero, 26 avril 2011 - 06:32 .

[Haexpane]

nijnij wrote...
  in DA2 it's really a sit-and-watch thing.  .

My #1 complaint, most of DA2 is sit and watch, not just final blow.  And most of the watching is ugly elf yappin or people standing around lecturing each other.