291 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

JohnEpler wrote...

Let me clarify - I'm looking mostly for those moments where you felt cinematics took control away from you as a player, and more importantly, why you felt that was the case. For example, if you felt that to be the case at moment X, what was it you felt the cinematics caused your Hawke to do that you wouldn't have done?

I can't seperate the two because I don't know whether your brief is to make the story happen, or if it's a variable outcome.

I would say that the interupts in ME2 changed how scenes played out and thats' something that needs to be in any cinematic RPG. Not just when it comes up in the choice wheel.

[Alex Kershaw]

JohnEpler wrote...

Bostur wrote...

Now I'd like to be a party pooper and say that the lesson "Show, don't tell", is so last century and was made due to the limitations of movies. Instead of showing the action why not play it? I think Half-Life 1 was revolutionary in this respect because it was one of the first games I played that tried to really meld the story into the gameplay. Later many games got a bit more lazy and mostly tried to show it.
You guys do tell a lot of the story by allowing us to play it, no doubt about it. But I fear the cinematic capabilities may sometimes be used as a bit of crutch instead of as a needed tool.

And that's a fair criticism. I'm of the mind that you should always try to maintain player agency. Certainly, there are moments where the compromise is going to be between 'give the player control and let them do something moderately interesting' or 'take some control away and let them do something really, really neat'.

I believe those instances should be used sparingly, though - I'm generally opposed to taking control away from the player for too long. Cinematics should support the gameplay, not replace it.

This reminds me of those games where mid-cutscene you have to press a button to 'interact' with it... Never worked in my opinion. Similar to the renegade/paragon presses mid-cutscene in ME2, but it worked much better in ME2 I think...

Modifié par Alex Kershaw, 19 avril 2011 - 03:38 .

[rcollins1701]

AlexXIV wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I've actually got a question for you guys - what scenes in DA2 did you feel took too much control away from you as a player? We've actually taken things out of scenes before because we felt that some players might look at it and say 'Hey, my Hawke would never do that!' so I'm interested in hearing where you felt we missed the mark in DA2. The more specific the examples, the better!

Every conversation where the camera switches away from the person you're speaking to and to 'yourself.' You instantly stop being your character and become an outside observer watching other people. At that moment, Hawke becomes an NPC. We're no longer him/her, we're the camera.

Hm many people would argue the opposite. That they liked that. I for example don't play as the protagonist, so watching him/her doing things or his/her face is actually preferred to just seeing the back of his/her head. So that the camera showed more of Hawke and not just the people he/she talked to was actually a point I thought an improvement to DA:O.

I agree. In any RPG—table-top or electronic—the character doesn't have to look or sound anything like me for me to feel like it's my character. I mean, I'm not a sword-weilding, female city elf, but it didn't stop me from role-playing one. Nor am I a biotic Alliance officer…well, you get the point.

[Foolsfolly]

problem with that is there be more cutscnes less battle time and ppl would argue about it just need a balance of the two
i recall in origins the orgers had a good send off and dragons had finsing moves granted da2 has that also but not in the right places and not as much
as for th wrighting argh some of the story just seemed to be missing parts example the converation at act 3 qwith anders hawke and sabastion i just felt like it could of improved and if it was origins with the same senario there would of been an option for presuation (not sure i spelt that right) to keep both anders and sabastion with you in the final battle

A fair point. It did get tiresome to have the whole game slow down as Alistair or Oghren got the killing blow off of an Ogre.

But the Arishok is a one of a kind boss fight that's likely being fought mano y mano by Hawke. A finisher move would have felt appropriate. Especially if it was a class specific finisher move like the Ogre from the beginning of DA2 (Varric's exaggeration).

[AlexXIV]

I don't really need killing blows. It's enough for me that they fall over. Killing blows always seem so excessive ...

[Dragoonlordz]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't really need killing blows. It's enough for me that they fall over. Killing blows always seem so excessive ...

It's generally better to have an excess of something than not enough though. Same principle of better to have something and not need, than need and not have (but in a different context).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 avril 2011 - 03:52 .

[Apollo Starflare]

JohnEpler wrote...

I've actually got a question for you guys - what scenes in DA2 did you feel took too much control away from you as a player? We've actually taken things out of scenes before because we felt that some players might look at it and say 'Hey, my Hawke would never do that!' so I'm interested in hearing where you felt we missed the mark in DA2. The more specific the examples, the better!

Y'know, I'm still trying to think of some examples but BobSmith's point about Mass Effect's 'interupts' being noticably absent is a good one (and related to the idea of taking control away from the player in a cutscene). I'm not sure I would have them in DA in the exact same way as they appear in ME, but I felt the DA team built upon the dialogue wheel concept beautifully with DA2 and would like to see what you guys could do with the interupts.

Perhaps having 'interupts' that change your character's tone or way of saying what they are saying? Similar to how the dominant personality feature works but on alterable for that specific conversation or event.

It would give the player the choice of having character react in a way that the game might consider out of character for them (and thus wouldn't pick using the current dominant personality set up which would still be active for other moments).

As for a specfic example, I would have perhaps liked more control of Hawke during some various death scenes, such as your sibling at the start. Being able to more precisely control your Hawke's reaction to such a traumatic event would certainly be an improvement (some might deflect with humour/anger etc. Others might be more openly distressed).

[AlexXIV]

I also support interrupts but I guess that's rather directed to the writing team to implement them into dialogues. Well or cutscenes.

[AlexXIV]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't really need killing blows. It's enough for me that they fall over. Killing blows always seem so excessive ...

It's generally better to have an excess of something than not enough though. Same principle of better to have something and not need, than need and not have (but in a different context).

Well it's not like I don't get an evil grin on my face if I chop off a hated enemy's head. But I wouldn't really miss it if it's not there.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 avril 2011 - 04:03 .

[Dragoonlordz]

If my 'long' rant reply to your question John isn't what you were looking for, I can throw one thing your way.

If do a companion quest and forget to put the companion in you get cinematics with a ghost in place of the companion (or not as it were) talking out of thin air like Fenris one -which cannot complete if start without him to the detriment of finding out after happened on mine.

[AkiKishi]

AlexXIV wrote...

I also support interrupts but I guess that's rather directed to the writing team to implement them into dialogues. Well or cutscenes.

That's what I mean when I say you can't really seperate wrting from cinematics. Cinematics are the visual representation of the wrting. If the story has a certain outcome, then the cinematic has no choice but to reflect it.

[John Epler]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If my 'long' rant reply to your question John isn't what you were looking for, I can throw one thing your way.

If do a companion quest and forget to put the companion in you get cinematics with a ghost in place of the companion (or not as it were) talking out of thin air like Fenris one -which cannot complete if start without him to the detriment of finding out after happened on mine.

While fair feedback, again, this is more of a technical issue than a cinematics one. I can certainly pass it along, but what I'm looking for is mostly the following - examples of places where you felt the cinematics took over from you as a player, or where you felt the cinematics made your Hawke do something that you, yourself, would not have done.  Or, also good, examples where you felt there were opportunities for cinematic moments that weren't capitalized on. The craft of Cinematic Design is still very new, and any feedback we can get from the consumer is valuable feedback to build on and hopefully will allow us to give you guys an improved experience in the future.

[freyafolk]

JohnEpler wrote...

Just to clarify - the feedback I'm looking for here is more cinematic specific. Writing-related feedback, while fair feedback to give, isn't really my department - I'd like to have a list of things that people felt worked and didn't work, cinematically, so we can take a look and see if there are any common threads that we can try to address in the future.

Although it is fairly minor in importance, one that stands out to me was after 'Fool's Rush In' when Isabela had clearly propositioned you and your Hawke seems interested by half-smiling (I'm sure this part annoyed some Isabela haters too) you go to see her at 'The Hanged Man' and she asks you to join her for a drink. My assumption was my Hawke would jump at the chance to enjoy drunken revelry with her, especially post-proposition, and then without being consulted my Hawke says "I don't think that would be wise".  Excuse me? This may be tied up with the whole problem of the way romances develope. I've said elsewhere that I don't believe it would take 4 years for that relationship to reach conusmation. However, whenever my character is asked a direct question I expect to be able to give an answer. If you want to guide the narrative in a different way your character shouldn't be used as the vehicle unless absolutely necessary. Isabela didn't have to make those offers but having done so you should have control over your answers.

(Spoiler Warning)

Another fairly minor but very annoying cinematic was confronting the slaver in Dark Town when you are trying to resuce Feynriel. You pull a knife on him and he *easily* bats you away. This did not match either character. Hawke should not have been so swiftly physically overcome  by a man who uses magic as his prime weapon. Imagine the outrage if you had a Batarian punk casually disarming Shepherd. This felt similarly wrong, particularly as I butchered that slaver in a heartbeat once combat began in earnest.  

So as not to be wholly negative some good points cinematically were;

End of Sherpherding wolves: the fact he walked away and spoke over his shoulder was spot-on. Face-on would have had a totally different tone.

Varric's personal story (BS version).

When it all kicks off with the Qunari in the compound.

(Missed cinematics)

Wouldn't the fight for Kirkwall have had more power if you had rallied the Ferelden refugees to fight for their new home - success depending on previous quests relating to that community? Seems like there was a speech going begging there.

Right at the beginning of the game I would've like to have seen Malcolm Hawke's funeral. Similarly, I started playing DA:O again and noticed that huge windmill in Lothering and thought 'wouldn't it have been cool to see a flaming catapult projectile crash through that as you disappeared into the hills'. Would've signified the seriousness of events to newcomers and shown why the Hawkes would be willing to accept their home in Ferelden was gone.

Modifié par freyafolk, 19 avril 2011 - 04:24 .

[AlexXIV]

JohnEpler wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If my 'long' rant reply to your question John isn't what you were looking for, I can throw one thing your way.

If do a companion quest and forget to put the companion in you get cinematics with a ghost in place of the companion (or not as it were) talking out of thin air like Fenris one -which cannot complete if start without him to the detriment of finding out after happened on mine.

While fair feedback, again, this is more of a technical issue than a cinematics one. I can certainly pass it along, but what I'm looking for is mostly the following - examples of places where you felt the cinematics took over from you as a player, or where you felt the cinematics made your Hawke do something that you, yourself, would not have done.  Or, also good, examples where you felt there were opportunities for cinematic moments that weren't capitalized on. The craft of Cinematic Design is still very new, and any feedback we can get from the consumer is valuable feedback to build on and hopefully will allow us to give you guys an improved experience in the future.

Another example for static cutscenes is where the camera is fixed in one position and the npcs seem glued with their feet on the ground. Like they are gesturing and flailing with heir hands and looking in around alot. but it seems they couldn't move if they tried. So if the camera moved and the npcs would for example assume differnt 'stances' it would look more 'life-like'. I don't really like when hands and arms move and the rest of the body is rather stiff.

Also in some cutscenes the group is talking while walking. I don't think the spoken-to character always needs to face the one who is talking to him/her. Sometimes I thought ... look where you are walking dude. I mean for example Hawke could look straight ahead while walking despite the fact Varric or someone is saying something to their right or left. Sometimes the 'facing the one you talk to' animation seems a bit robotic. So it clearly reminds you that it is a sort of script or animation and not 'reaL'. It didn't happen as often in DA2 as for example in DA:O though, so I guess you are already working on it.

Not sure if that came across well. What I mean is that sometimes it looks odd if a character 'locks' his/her gaze on the one he/she is talking to. That's not something you'd do in real life. You'd look around, lower your gaze, then focus again, etc.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 avril 2011 - 04:24 .

[Foolsfolly]

@ JohnEpler:

Not what you're asking for exactly but during Sheparding Wolves Hawke and the Saarebas walk and talk. The camera is down low and looking up at them. That was a nice touch that really helped differentiate that conversation with the hundreds we have throughout the game.

Just a game ago you guys would have started the conversation over at the spot and not walked over. I just wanted to say, that worked really well.

As did the Fenris/Gallows conversation. It was cinematic, the camera was active, and we're still in control of the conversation. Well done.

[John Epler]

AlexXIV wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If my 'long' rant reply to your question John isn't what you were looking for, I can throw one thing your way.

If do a companion quest and forget to put the companion in you get cinematics with a ghost in place of the companion (or not as it were) talking out of thin air like Fenris one -which cannot complete if start without him to the detriment of finding out after happened on mine.

While fair feedback, again, this is more of a technical issue than a cinematics one. I can certainly pass it along, but what I'm looking for is mostly the following - examples of places where you felt the cinematics took over from you as a player, or where you felt the cinematics made your Hawke do something that you, yourself, would not have done.  Or, also good, examples where you felt there were opportunities for cinematic moments that weren't capitalized on. The craft of Cinematic Design is still very new, and any feedback we can get from the consumer is valuable feedback to build on and hopefully will allow us to give you guys an improved experience in the future.

Another example for static cutscenes is where the camera is fixed in one position and the npcs seem glued with their feet on the ground. Like they are gesturing and flailing with heir hands and looking in around alot. but it seems they couldn't move if they tried. So if the camera moved and the npcs would for example assume differnt 'stances' it would look more 'life-like'. I don't really like when hands and arms move and the rest of the body is rather stiff.

Also in some cutscenes the group is talking while walking. I don't think the spoken-to character always needs to face the one who is talking to him/her. Sometimes I thought ... look where you are walking dude. I mean for example Hawke could look straight ahead while walking despite the fact Varric or someone is saying something to their right or left. Sometimes the 'facing the one you talk to' animation seems a bit robotic. So it clearly reminds you that it is a sort of script or animation and not 'reaL'. It didn't happen as often in DA2 as for example in DA:O though, so I guess you are already working on it.

And those are both fair criticisms. 

For the former, the issue that does come up is that as soon as you start moving people around, the complexity of the scene goes up exponentially. Because of the way our conversation system and staging system works, you're starting to run into issues where you might introduce bugs as a result of changing people's positions and having them move around a lot while speaking.

That being said, of course, it is something we're aware of and we've been looking at ways to improve that aspect. Of course, you don't want to run into a situation where there are unmotivated movements in a conversation - perhaps the biggest issue most cinematic designers run into with their early work is the 'Stan the Salesman' conversation style, where people seem to be gesturing for what seems like no reason other than to have them doing something with their hands.

As for the second, that's our lookat system some of the time, and a conscious choice the rest of the time. But you're correct - there's a few conversations that I myself worked on that, looking back, I made the wrong call on. Some of it can be chalked up to inexperience, and some of it to simply choosing a particular direction when it was difficult to make a clear call on which was the right choice.

[Brockololly]

JohnEpler wrote...

While fair feedback, again, this is more of a technical issue than a cinematics one. I can certainly pass it along, but what I'm looking for is mostly the following - examples of places where you felt the cinematics took over from you as a player, or where you felt the cinematics made your Hawke do something that you, yourself, would not have done.  Or, also good, examples where you felt there were opportunities for cinematic moments that weren't capitalized on. The craft of Cinematic Design is still very new, and any feedback we can get from the consumer is valuable feedback to build on and hopefully will allow us to give you guys an improved experience in the future.

Just off the top of my head, consistency overall in the presentation would be one of my big things. It wasn't too bad, but it often felt like you could sort of tell certain scenes were being made by different people.

You had the super Zack Snyder slo-mo Isabela dagger throw which seemed a bit out of place, then in one of the conversations at Gamlen's house with Leandra  (I can't remember if its afer you get the will or after you realize he's pissed away the money?) its cutting back and forth between everyone, but its done in an almost Paul Greengrass style shakey-cam and I think thats the only time you see that in the whole game- so its sort of jarring.

I have issues with player agency with the whole voiced PC deal, but in terms of cinematics, I'd prefer more subtle  movements  that don't get super detached from the PC when the PC is talking. Sometimes in the more mundane conversations it felt like there was some quota to move the camera around or stick it in odd places for the hell of it- I think in one of Merrill's conversations its arbitrarily giving you this ultra high angle shot, but its just Hawke and her talking.

If games are intent on going the whole cinematic route, it would be nice if each game/franchise had a more consistent cinematic feel or look to tie the whole thing together.

[TheAwesomologist]

JohnEpler wrote...

Just to clarify - the feedback I'm looking for here is more cinematic specific. Writing-related feedback, while fair feedback to give, isn't really my department - I'd like to have a list of things that people felt worked and didn't work, cinematically, so we can take a look and see if there are any common threads that we can try to address in the future.

((Sorry if this spoils part of Act 1 for anyone))

Sometimes those are hard to separate. Not sure if this applies to the writing end or the cinematic end but here's an example where I felt sidelined. At the end of Act 1 when my Warrior Hawke returned from the Deep Roads to find Bethany has turned herself in. You get one dialog option (where I always choose "Over my dead body") and nothing happens. Not even a Shepard Punch!
Maker knows I've been wanting to punch/murder knife Cullen since DA:O but he has better plot armor than Anders it seems. But its one of those moments where I as the player just finished killing off dark spawn, giant spiders, lighting-rock-monsters, demons, and giant rock wraith. But three templars show up at my house to take my sister away and I can't even punch them? If there's ever a moment where you want button=awesome thats it.

When it comes to technical cinematic moments I was only bugged when Hawke would do a cinematic kill... with the wrong (or different) weapon. We're in the non-spoilers sections so I won't list them all off but I'm pretty sure you guys are aware of which moments Generic Knife #4 comes out instead of my big axe or awesome staff.

Modifié par TheAwesomologist, 19 avril 2011 - 04:34 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

errant_knight wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I've actually got a question for you guys - what scenes in DA2 did you feel took too much control away from you as a player? We've actually taken things out of scenes before because we felt that some players might look at it and say 'Hey, my Hawke would never do that!' so I'm interested in hearing where you felt we missed the mark in DA2. The more specific the examples, the better!

Every conversation where the camera switches away from the person you're speaking to and to 'yourself.' You instantly stop being your character and become an outside observer watching other people. At that moment, Hawke becomes an NPC. We're no longer him/her, we're the camera.

I'm with this. Because I play as protagonist. If I don't play as protagonist I might as well don't play at all because it's not fun for me. The fun of role playing for me is to dive into the world by being the protagonist. It's connected me to the world deeply. I can't reach the character by watching him converse like I watch movie actor. It's disconnect me from the character  because that's not how my character see thing is. That's not how we view things when we converse in real life. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 19 avril 2011 - 04:33 .

[Brockololly]

JohnEpler wrote..

As for the second, that's our lookat system some of the time, and a conscious choice the rest of the time. But you're correct - there's a few conversations that I myself worked on that, looking back, I made the wrong call on. Some of it can be chalked up to inexperience, and some of it to simply choosing a particular direction when it was difficult to make a clear call on which was the right choice.

On the other hand, with respect to having the PC just walk while looking forward and not paying attention to somebody talking, depending on any context, that could make it seem like the PC is being dismissive or ignoring whoever may be talking to them too, which might be the opposite of what the player wants the PC to be acting like.

[upsettingshorts]

What errant_knight and Sacred_Fantasy are talking about ties into my usual third person vs. first person narrative spiel, so I'll repost it here.

The short version of the reason I am is because it seems to be a decision that has broader implications well beyond cinematics:

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Many previous Bioware games were in my opinion implicitly third person narratives. But they didn't go so far as to demand that everyone have this view. Adding a voiceover and a paraphrase system makes the games explicitly third person. So if you always played Bioware games as a third person narrative, this doesn't bother you and is possibly seen as an improvement. If you always played Bioware games as a first person narrative, this is a radical departure.

I didn't specifically mention cinematics but they're part of the explicit third person narrative nature of the more recent games as well. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 04:38 .

[88mphSlayer]

i don't really see what the big surprise is - movies pioneered the art of moving pictures and video games pioneered the art of interactive moving pictures... of course they'd slowly start to inbreed

and for that matter there's always been debates in the movie community since movies first took off that they were borrowing concepts from music and photography too much

[AlexXIV]

JohnEpler wrote...

As for the second, that's our lookat system some of the time, and a conscious choice the rest of the time. But you're correct - there's a few conversations that I myself worked on that, looking back, I made the wrong call on. Some of it can be chalked up to inexperience, and some of it to simply choosing a particular direction when it was difficult to make a clear call on which was the right choice.

I guess it is also a matter of personal taste. People probably act different in conversations, and like or dislike different things. I don't think it is really a big issue or anything I would have come up with by myself, but you asked