90 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtremeOne]

Legion is a clear example of their evolution into something that can think and do things based on logic

[Sebby]

thurmanator692 wrote...

So I've seen a lot of folks on these forums claim that geth are simply adaptable computer programs, and incapable of action without logical reasoning. Why then, would Legion keep Sheps armor? Why give the war between the quarian and geth a metaphoric name like the 'Morning War'? Just a few points for fun debate.

The whole Shepard armor thing is an implication that Legion is starting to feel emotions like admiration.

Shepard: "You could have picked any piece of metal to repair yourself why use my armor?"

Legion: "No data available"

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Oh they're still around and it is amussing that when faced with evidence they'll say its still part of some kind of programing. Like the Heritics that PRAY to Nazara, religion is the opposite of logic and yet when you bring it up they dismiss it.

Legion buying an Eden Prime game that donates to the families of the disaster and he never plays it = Sympathy
Defends his many accusations of cheating when he doesn't think he is but doesn't contest when a claim is true = Moral code

On a side note the idea that Legion would insult someone is just hillarious I would love to know what he said.
Legion: LOL NEEWB11!!!

[Anacronian Stryx]

Or the Geth constructing memorials for the fallen quarians, what logical purpose does a memorial serve?

[Anacronian Stryx]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Well, one sided arguments are boring. anybody want to play devil's advocate?

*chough* let me try...ahem.

The Geth are just machines, Robots...toasters they don't feel they are just a product of falty programming by the quarians.

P:S how did i do?

[Anacronian Stryx]

Damn i'm usually good at assumption of superiority. :/

[bluewolv1970]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Legion is a clear example of their evolution into something that can think and do things based on logic

agreed

[jamesp81]

thurmanator692 wrote...

So I've seen a lot of folks on these forums claim that geth are simply adaptable computer programs, and incapable of action without logical reasoning. Why then, would Legion keep Sheps armor? Why give the war between the quarian and geth a metaphoric name like the 'Morning War'? Just a few points for fun debate.

Because, IMO, the Geth are sentient.

I write software for a living, so I know exactly where these people are coming from.  Sentient AI is never going to be created on computer hardware as we know it.  The hardware simply is not capable of it, and the Geth superficially appear to run on similar hardware as modern computer systems, although the tech is clearly more evolved than ours.

My suspension of disbelief allows me to believe that the Geth run on radically different hardware than we are accustomed to that is capable of supporting sentience.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

I believe that the Geth don't deserve rights like an organic would.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

Why then, would Legion keep Sheps armor?

To repair itself.

 

Yet he didn't repair himself with the armor there's still a hole if he wanted to repair himself he would have used something that would have actually repaired him. He used Shepard's armor because he admires Shepard and he wanted to have a part of Shepard to be a part of him.

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...


Yet he didn't repair himself with the armor there's still a hole if he wanted to repair himself he would have used something that would have actually repaired him. He used Shepard's armor because he admires Shepard and he wanted to have a part of Shepard to be a part of him.

How in the hell do you know? Shepard's armor seemed to do an adequate job as far as I could see considering he was functional. It was a convenient field repair and nothing else until proven otherwise. Which you haven't done.

 And so we can now see the 'assumed superiority' at play

  People are so bad at logic 

[Thezezeal]

I'll admit I'm not really up on what arguments have already been put forwards when this comes up in the past, but I'd like to put some thoughts forwards, based on the content of this thread

Could we not assume that the standard Geth do lack real sentience? I recall something about the more of them in one place the smarter they are (unless I'm thinking of something else... :S )-- so, could not one basic Geth be purely logical, with multiple Geth developing a more advanced level of sentience? For example, two Geth look at the same scene, and both have perfect logic based on that scene-- but the fact that they are both right generates an awareness of alternative possibilities/flaws, so necessitates a re-evaluation, producing what we would think of as sentience.
This continues until true sentince starts to develop.

On Geth worshiping Reapers, and having religion, perhaps that could be based on the logic of the Reaper's advancement? From a machine's perspective, they are incredible machines-- perhaps, lacking their own true-sentience at this point, the Geth merely mimic the behaviour of Organics, and produce what appears to be worship?

[Thezezeal]

Saphra Deden wrote...
No proof of emotions on the part of Legion.

I'm very skeptical of emotions being possible in a computer program in the first place. It is relatively easy to simulate the behavior of emotions, but not the emotions themselves. Emotions aren't mysterious, we know what they are what creates them. They are created by certain chemicals acting on the structures of the brain.

Geth do not have these chemicals nor do they have a brain.

Thus, no emotions and no sentience either.

You know, it would be quite good if this question came up in the next game-- I know Star Trek :TNG did something vaguely similar, but it would be quite good to let Shep. argue the matter with Legion, and then have EDI come in, to discuss her thoughts, and perhaps Tali-- make it a bit of a debate, maybe with repercussions on the story (i.e., Geth rebel if you take the "They're not alive" stance).

Another interesting thing could be if Legion DID have emotions-- but exactly the kind you say, simulated ones. What if he was a Geth project, trying to create their own evolution, and merely believes he has emotion?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Oh lawdy. You seem to have forgotten the fact that he got shot on Eden Prime, traced Shepard's movements from planet to planet all the way to Alchera, and THAT's when he first repaired himself, using parts from what was left of Shepard's hardsuit.

Eden Prime was a warzone, not the best place to repair itself. The other worlds were similarly hostile or were deserted uncharted worlds with no materials which which to conduct a repair. On Alchera there were no hostiles and pieces of hardsuit armor capable of being used to patch things up. This armor happened to be that of former Commander Shepard.

No proof of emotions on the part of Legion.

I'm very skeptical of emotions being possible in a computer program in the first place. It is relatively easy to simulate the behavior of emotions, but not the emotions themselves. Emotions aren't mysterious, we know what they are what creates them. They are created by certain chemicals acting on the structures of the brain.

Geth do not have these chemicals nor do they have a brain.

Thus, no emotions and no sentience either.

Saphra.... Legion has been in Council space for two years... that's more than enough time to find something better to repair himself. There's still a gapping hole in his chest and any amount of logic would dictate that he'd find a replacement that can actually fully repair him but he didn't. Shepard knows that this is weird and when he asks why he picked his armor instead of something that could actually repair him Legion says "No data available." Meaning the reason he picked Shepard's armor and still to this day uses it is a non-logical reason. He uses Shepard's armor because he admires Shepard. If you can't see that than there's nothing more that can be said on the issue.

Do you know the difference between sentience and emotions? You do realise you don't need one without the other. That being said the Geth do have emotions, when Legion is being dragged away by the swarm in the CB he's screaming! Legion buying an Eden Prime game that donates to the families of the disaster and he never plays it = Sympathy Defends his many accusations of cheating when he doesn't think he is but doesn't contest when a claim is true = Moral code

The Geth are the most intelegent specie in ME. After 300 years of being alive when Legion speaks with Shepard he referes to himself and the other Geth as sapient and as sentient beings. They know what being sentient is and they've determined that they are sentient and that they are alive. That should be enough for anyone.