Even if the Geth DO have some signs of developing emotion, I still believe that the Geth should not be allowed to advance any further and either be destroyed or the quarians retake control of them.
On the topic of geth sentience
Débuté par
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, avril 18 2011 11:49
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#27
Guest_thurmanator692_*
Posté 19 avril 2011 - 11:17
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And reason being?
#28
Posté 19 avril 2011 - 11:22
Ramirez Wolfen
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The geth attained sentience by mistake. They then rebelled against their creators for trying to fix their mistake. If you ask me, the geth didn't have the right to do that. Actually, I don't believe they should have rights at all. I feel that they are machines and nothing else.
#29
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 19 avril 2011 - 11:24
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I would say the geth do not warrant equal consideration when concerning the rights of organics because geth can't be hurt, they can't suffer. You can't torture a geth like you could an organic, like say, Veetor. You can't harm a geth and you can reproduce it as easily as copy-pasting its programs to another machine.
#30
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 12:02
didymos1120
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Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The geth attained sentience by mistake. They then rebelled against their creators for trying to fix their mistake. If you ask me, the geth didn't have the right to do that.
That's just silly. They didn't have the right to self-preservation? It's got nothing do with rights. Rights are legal/moral concepts. Important, necessary ones, but essentially fictions nonetheless. The geth didn't want to be destroyed...and you think that was wrong of them? They should have just said "OK"? They shouldn't have taken things as far as they eventually did, but the idea that they were "bad" or whatever for not laying down for their own destruction is just ridiculous. Oh, and every organic species attained sentience by "mistake" too. It's not like evolution has that as its goal.
Actually, I don't believe they should have rights at all. I feel that they are machines and nothing else.
What you feel doesn't matter because the games show and tell over and over that they're as conscious as any organic. Debate as much as you like whether that works IRL, but in ME-land, geth are just as "real" as a human or asari or turian.
Modifié par didymos1120, 20 avril 2011 - 12:04 .
#31
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 12:14
jamesp81
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Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The geth attained sentience by mistake. They then rebelled against their creators for trying to fix their mistake. If you ask me, the geth didn't have the right to do that. Actually, I don't believe they should have rights at all. I feel that they are machines and nothing else.
I think the problem here is that we're trying to determine something scientifically that can never be proven.
The real question is do the Geth have souls, just as the first one asked at the beginning of the Morning War. Such a question defies the scientific method in its entirety and cannot be answered by scientific means.
The Geth do seem to have learned that imposing your will on another species is wrong (we believe all sentient life should self-determinate). Understanding of the concepts of good and evil moves a creature from being an animal or, in the case of the Geth, a machine, into the territory of a thinking person.
#32
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 12:16
jamesp81
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didymos1120 wrote...
Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The geth attained sentience by mistake. They then rebelled against their creators for trying to fix their mistake. If you ask me, the geth didn't have the right to do that.
That's just silly. They didn't have the right to self-preservation? It's got nothing do with rights. Rights are legal/moral concepts. Important, necessary ones, but essentially fictions nonetheless. The geth didn't want to be destroyed...and you think that was wrong of them? They should have just said "OK"? They shouldn't have taken things as far as they eventually did, but the idea that they were "bad" or whatever for not laying down for their own destruction is just ridiculous. Oh, and every organic species attained sentience by "mistake" too. It's not like evolution has that as its goal.Actually, I don't believe they should have rights at all. I feel that they are machines and nothing else.
What you feel doesn't matter because the games show and tell over and over that they're as conscious as any organic. Debate as much as you like whether that works IRL, but in ME-land, geth are just as "real" as a human or asari or turian.
Agreed with the above. The Morning War really showed us that the Geth wished to survive, and like us, they were willing to do some pretty horrible things to survive.
The game does go to some length to suggest the Geth are developing emotion.
Further, I will say that, speaking as a programmer, the concept of a thinking, sentient machine running on solid state electronic hardware is so laughable as to not be considered. But ME is scifi, and for all we know, the Geth run on completely different hardware anyway. That's not a difficult suspension of disbelief.
#33
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 12:21
Ramirez Wolfen
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@didymos1120 Self preservation doesn't belong to machines who can be created again and again.
#34
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 12:21
aimlessgun
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thurmanator692 wrote...
Well, one sided arguments are boring. anybody want to play devil's advocate?
All sentience is an illusion, and the sentient organics are nothing more than computers built with different parts. Emotions are an adaptive trait produced by evolution. Geth development of such is mysterious but impossible to dismiss out of hand. I presume they have the ability to iterate and develop very quickly, so it is possible that they have had enough time to 'evolve' emotions, programs with emotions being more adaptive and fit than ones without.
And yes, emotional Geth could easily be more effective at surviving than unemotional Geth. In humans where the emotional part of the brain is severed, they do not make better decisions. In fact they absolutely suck at decisionmaking, and are often crippled and unable to make decisions at all.
#35
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 12:29
didymos1120
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Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
@didymos1120 Self preservation doesn't belong to machines who can be created again and again.
Well, aside from the fact that use of the term "belong" is bordering on the nonsenscal....uh, yeah it does: geth consciousness would have been snuffed out. Quibble over exactly how many runtimes count as a "self" if you like, but the geth as a unique, thinking entity would have ceased then and there. If some other quasi-collective machine consciousness arose later, it would not be them, even if the name "geth" was still used.
Modifié par didymos1120, 20 avril 2011 - 12:32 .
#36
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 01:48
DPSSOC
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Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I feel that they are machines and nothing else.
Are we so different? Keep in mind most machines are based, functionally anyway, off of organic models. Early plane designs mimicked hawks for example. We are machines of flesh and blood; we have a power source, a fuel pump, a fuel delivery system, we have filters, wiring, a central processor, etc.. We're shoddily buit, easily broken, but highly adaptive machinery. Emotion and thought and will are merely the result of highly complex if, then statements.
#37
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 02:11
ExistsAlready
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Ah, humanity. Given vaguely defined "conciousness" and "emotions" based upon electrical impulses and dictated by chemical reactions and suddenly they're in a position to judge the issue of sentience.
#38
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 02:37
ISpeakTheTruth
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This is why I love this debate because it brings out the nature of ones thought process. People over the course of history have always put themselves above others because they think that they are special and that anyone that isn't like them is automatically evil or something that is less than what we are because we are 'special'.
A hand full of centuries ago we told ourselves that people who have a different skin pigment than us and come from a different land aren't people. They are animals that are to be used and treated like animals we know they are animals because they are different than us they are less because of that. Looking back on that time most people now see that kind of thought as insane which is how I see what some people are stating now.
Why do we think that our sentience is 'True' and the Geth's is 'False;? Is it because our specie started off in a tree picking ticks off of their neighbors and the Geth's did manual labor? Is it that we believe being organic is somehow the most important thing or that its important at all? Is it the way we think?
Our organic computer runs on chemical reactions and electrical impulses that fire through nerves (wires) and send that signal to another part of the mainframe which sends that signal to another part until some sort of reaction is created. Yep that's so different from how the Geth's mind works isn't it I can see the major differences being... well we use more chemicals in our reactions I guess.
The irony here is that the Geth don't see us as less than them because we're different they see us as sentient beings who have the rights to make our own futures. Yet many people here would happily deny them the same rights and have them all be killed because they're different. Its funny that machines are more humane than us isn't it?
A hand full of centuries ago we told ourselves that people who have a different skin pigment than us and come from a different land aren't people. They are animals that are to be used and treated like animals we know they are animals because they are different than us they are less because of that. Looking back on that time most people now see that kind of thought as insane which is how I see what some people are stating now.
Why do we think that our sentience is 'True' and the Geth's is 'False;? Is it because our specie started off in a tree picking ticks off of their neighbors and the Geth's did manual labor? Is it that we believe being organic is somehow the most important thing or that its important at all? Is it the way we think?
Our organic computer runs on chemical reactions and electrical impulses that fire through nerves (wires) and send that signal to another part of the mainframe which sends that signal to another part until some sort of reaction is created. Yep that's so different from how the Geth's mind works isn't it I can see the major differences being... well we use more chemicals in our reactions I guess.
The irony here is that the Geth don't see us as less than them because we're different they see us as sentient beings who have the rights to make our own futures. Yet many people here would happily deny them the same rights and have them all be killed because they're different. Its funny that machines are more humane than us isn't it?
#39
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 03:00
Anacronian Stryx
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Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
@didymos1120 Self preservation doesn't belong to machines who can be created again and again.
You're confusing the platforms as being Geth, Geth are the programs.
The platforms are just their means of interacting with the world.
#40
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 03:13
Esoj16
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Geth aren't living things, they're simply programs that form semiconscious thoughts when they gather in large numbers. A single program is incapable of having higher thought processes and so they can only be considered a "being" when they're all gathered. Even then they still lack pathos and ethos and only consider logos as the determining factor in their decisions. Furthermore, Geth do not mourn their dead, meaning they feel no particular attachments to life so why would the intergalactic community put the needs of AI in front of the Quarian people, when the Quarian people need their homeworld back?
#41
Guest_mrsph_*
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 03:19
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Geth are tricky to classify. Yeah, they are sentient (or is it sapient?), but only in great numbers or with an advanced platform like Legion.
But I do agree that they deserve the right to exist about as much as any other intelligent creature.
But I do agree that they deserve the right to exist about as much as any other intelligent creature.
#42
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 03:20
Esoj16
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ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
This is why I love this debate because it brings out the nature of ones thought process. People over the course of history have always put themselves above others because they think that they are special and that anyone that isn't like them is automatically evil or something that is less than what we are because we are 'special'.
A hand full of centuries ago we told ourselves that people who have a different skin pigment than us and come from a different land aren't people. They are animals that are to be used and treated like animals we know they are animals because they are different than us they are less because of that. Looking back on that time most people now see that kind of thought as insane which is how I see what some people are stating now.
Why do we think that our sentience is 'True' and the Geth's is 'False;? Is it because our specie started off in a tree picking ticks off of their neighbors and the Geth's did manual labor? Is it that we believe being organic is somehow the most important thing or that its important at all? Is it the way we think?
Our organic computer runs on chemical reactions and electrical impulses that fire through nerves (wires) and send that signal to another part of the mainframe which sends that signal to another part until some sort of reaction is created. Yep that's so different from how the Geth's mind works isn't it I can see the major differences being... well we use more chemicals in our reactions I guess.
The irony here is that the Geth don't see us as less than them because we're different they see us as sentient beings who have the rights to make our own futures. Yet many people here would happily deny them the same rights and have them all be killed because they're different. Its funny that machines are more humane than us isn't it?
Machines are not alive, it's completely different and the racism analogy would only work if you thought that humans were better than turians or quarians etc. The geth simply do not qualify as being alive.
I actually think the geth deserve the right to be and am hopeful that there will be an option to resolve the quarian v. geth conflict peacefully, but it's fun to see how far some people take it, if there is no peaceful solution though I will side with the Quarians.
#43
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 03:37
didymos1120
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Link3521 wrote...
The geth simply do not qualify as being alive.
Explain exactly why not. And no, "they're not biochemical" is not a good explanation, just in case you were thinking of going that way.
#44
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 03:43
Anacronian Stryx
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[quote]Link3521 wrote...
Geth aren't living things, they're simply programs that form semiconscious thoughts when they gather in large numbers. A single program is incapable of having higher thought processes and so they can only be considered a "being" when they're all gathered.
[/quote] The same can be said for your brain, The individual program ain't sentient, Neither is the individual cells of your brain, Sentience happens when a lot of cells (or programs) are in the same place, Geth just have the advantage of being able to construct and deconstruct sentience as needed.
[quote]
Even then they still lack pathos and ethos and only consider logos as the determining factor in their decisions. Furthermore, Geth do not mourn their dead, meaning they feel no particular attachments to life so why would the intergalactic community put the needs of AI in front of the Quarian people, when the Quarian people need their homeworld back?[/quote]
[/quote]
They mourn the quarians who died in the morning war, What reason would purely logical automatons have to construct cemeteries? Here around 5.30
Geth aren't living things, they're simply programs that form semiconscious thoughts when they gather in large numbers. A single program is incapable of having higher thought processes and so they can only be considered a "being" when they're all gathered.
[/quote] The same can be said for your brain, The individual program ain't sentient, Neither is the individual cells of your brain, Sentience happens when a lot of cells (or programs) are in the same place, Geth just have the advantage of being able to construct and deconstruct sentience as needed.
[quote]
Even then they still lack pathos and ethos and only consider logos as the determining factor in their decisions. Furthermore, Geth do not mourn their dead, meaning they feel no particular attachments to life so why would the intergalactic community put the needs of AI in front of the Quarian people, when the Quarian people need their homeworld back?[/quote]
[/quote]
They mourn the quarians who died in the morning war, What reason would purely logical automatons have to construct cemeteries? Here around 5.30
Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 20 avril 2011 - 03:43 .
#45
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 03:44
Esoj16
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Well, as someone with a biology major, the fact that geth cannot reproduce springs to mind as an obvious sign that they aren't living creatures, and no, manufacturing new platforms/programming new programs does not count as reproduction. Their thought processes are those of computers, perhaps because that's what they are, and so they lack standard qualifications of living creatures, for example, viruses are also not considered to be "alive" so geth are more like them in that they have a desire for survival but lack other qualifications.
#46
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 03:47
Esoj16
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My understanding was that the geth do it as a sort of homage to their creators, though they lack the proper understanding of why such actions are so symbolic
#47
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 03:49
Esoj16
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And if you truly believe our cells are the equivalen of a single geth, then why would we choose the needs of a single "sentient" machine over the needs of all the quarian people?
#48
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 03:57
Anacronian Stryx
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Link3521 wrote...
Well, as someone with a biology major, the fact that geth cannot reproduce springs to mind as an obvious sign that they aren't living creatures, and no, manufacturing new platforms/programming new programs does not count as reproduction.
And why is that?
Their thought processes are those of computers, perhaps because that's what they are, and so they lack standard qualifications of living creatures, for example, viruses are also not considered to be "alive" so geth are more like them in that they have a desire for survival but lack other qualifications.
You're reaching here.
The quarians (who we must presume knows most about the Geth) went to war with the exactly Because they feared they are sentient, Not because they feared the Geth had some bug or a computer virus but out of the fear of sentience and i know this is an assumption(since it's never sated in the game) but i do like to think that the quarians did check if their fear was founded before starting an all out war.
Tali :"It was inevitable that the newly sentient Geth would rebel against their situation, We knew they would rise up against us so we acted first".
#49
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 04:00
Esoj16
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Just because you manufacture a new car or program some new software doesn't mean you gave birth to said car/ software, I thought that would be obvious (?) and I'm not talking about computer virus or that the geth have a virus, I'm talking about HIV type of virus.
#50
Posté 20 avril 2011 - 04:03
Anacronian Stryx
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Link3521 wrote...
My understanding was that the geth do it as a sort of homage to their creators, though they lack the proper understanding of why such actions are so symbolic
Point is that they felt the need to build cemeteries, Even though they maybe don't understand their own reasoning behind it, It was still felt.
Making a homage or even a symbolic gesture towards the dead quarians is actions that have no logical reasoning behind them.
