263 réponses à ce sujet

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Lord Laidlaw is one of the chosen of Bioware, a God among mere mortals. We are his servants, and critics, who contribute our voices to the choir of the damned.

[MCPOWill]

 Just because he is never wrong, doesn't mean that he is always right. 

[djwyattwood]

JohnEpler wrote...

Dalira Montanti wrote...

@johnEpler
I hope the situation becomes better for you guys and i do hope there will be some light at the end of this strange tunnel

People are passionate. That's good! Of course, the personal attacks become a little tiresome, not to mention that they tend to lead to an immediate discounting of someone's opinion.

Most people restrict themselves to discussing the game and the issues they have with it. That's good, useable feedback, and they make up the majority of those on the forum in the 'negative' camp. It's, unfortunately, the few but vocal that figure that attacking specific people is going to give their point any more weight.

So my opinnion is discounted because of reading interviews that the project lead did? It isn't my fault that the words he uses makes him look like a person who believes himself righteous.

Also, there is no way shape or form I can have a rational discussion with Mike Laidlaw one-on-one at this point. I am just a lowly customer who would need the Gods to shine upon him to get answers from big cheese Laidlaw. I paid for my game just like everyone else, do we not deserve answers?

Modifié par djwyattwood, 19 avril 2011 - 09:32 .

[Heather Cline]

TUHD wrote...

@JohnEpler: I've mentioned it by now countless times before, and over half the times caught flak over it from people whom liked DA2, but what Mike does in interviews is just bad business. For example, the latest interview (I don't have the magazine myself, so I can't check it) with Game Informer: http://uk.gamespot.c...594&pid=988968.

Stuff like that gets people angry - some more then others. And since Mike said such stuff, he gets the flak for it. That noone in the PR-department told him yet to calm it a bit down, is beyond me - since I only need to google and the majority of the reviews who either were negative or so-so, went completely negative when Mark's first comments started to hit the shelves.

@Heather. One big flaw in your reasoning: we're not employees working besides BW (although we try to  provide feedback and ideas), we're customers. So we expect an solid product - and due to the varying standards of people some call it 'solid' (or better), and some don't.

TUHD I was using the work as an example of how anger doesn't solve anything. Yes I understand that the game wasn't solid and that it has it's flaws. I could have gone in another direction with the example of how getting into a fist fight with someone could end up in getting arrested by the cops and so on and so forth. It was an example to prove a point that anger will not get the results we want. That is all it was. The reasoning isn't flawed it was an analogy meant to help prove a point.

[TUHD]

@Heather: I get your point - but IMHO it just wasn't a very effective one.

[Heather Cline]

TUHD that's fine I understand that you didn't find it an effective analogy but it's what I thought up at the time.

[John Epler]

djwyattwood wrote...

So my opinnion is discounted because of reading interviews that the project lead did? It isn't my fault that the words he uses makes him look like a person who believes himself righteous.

Also, there is no way shape or form I can have a rational discussion with Mike Laidlaw one-on-one at this point. I am just a lowly customer who would need the Gods to shine upon him to get answers from big cheese Laidlaw. I paid for my game just like everyone else, do we not deserve answers?

Here's what it comes down to, though. The forums are extremely active - topics last for maybe an hour on the front page before they're pushed on to the second. From this, I (and others) try to get a sense of what the most common issues and concerns are among the fanbase so that we have a good grasp of what worked, what didn't, and what sat squarely in the middle.

When I see certain posters continually descending to personal attacks, well, I can't read every topic and I can't read every post. If someone has a long history of popping into threads to say, essentially, 'DEVELOPER Y SHOULD BE FIRED' and posting long rants about that particular person, then it's going to colour my perception of them. Because while they're just names and faces to you, they're people I work with, and people I generally consider to be friends. So yes, it does affect my perception of someone's post if I continually see them attacking a particular developer.

Point out flaws in the decisions all you like. Bring up issues you have with particular mechanics - even if I don't agree with you, if it's well-defended and you support your arguments well then it'll give me something to think about, and it'll be a viewpoint I'll keep in mind in the future. But when you descend to personal attacks, it feels to me, at least, like you'd rather not spend the time defending your points, and it certainly doesn't contribute to a constructive forum environment.

[Ariella]

neppakyo wrote...

Ariella wrote...


As for the whole Brent Knowles angle, we have no clue what his vision really was because DAO was ALSO developed by a team, including Mike Laidlaw, Dave Gaider (who pretty much is the lorekeeper of DA) Mark Darrah and company.

You're wrong about that. Laidlaw was brought in late, after origins was finished, to port it to xbox360. His only credit for the game.

During Origins development, he was working on Jade Empire(came out around 2006 I think)

Laidlaw was on the team as soon as he was done with JE which was 2005 (PC was 2006 but Grey Matter LTI handled the PC port), and he's listed in the credits as lead designer (there are 3) and the Xbox port was handled out of house by Edge of Reality, not in house by Bioware which is why the game ui is so different from the PC to the Console versions of the game and why they did the major redesign in house this time rather than outside. Add to that the game didn't even have a PUBLISHER till 2007 when EA bought the holding group Bioware was part of. So we come to 2009 when discussion starts and Brent backs out. He was one person on a team made up of 2 exec producers/project director, 3 lead designers, an art director, project manager, QA Lead, and online producer as well as all the design leads. Claiming it was all Brent's brilliance is the same as claiming that DA2 is all Mike's fault. These games aren't the result of a single person.

[djwyattwood]

JohnEpler wrote...

djwyattwood wrote...

So my opinnion is discounted because of reading interviews that the project lead did? It isn't my fault that the words he uses makes him look like a person who believes himself righteous.

Also, there is no way shape or form I can have a rational discussion with Mike Laidlaw one-on-one at this point. I am just a lowly customer who would need the Gods to shine upon him to get answers from big cheese Laidlaw. I paid for my game just like everyone else, do we not deserve answers?

Here's what it comes down to, though. The forums are extremely active - topics last for maybe an hour on the front page before they're pushed on to the second. From this, I (and others) try to get a sense of what the most common issues and concerns are among the fanbase so that we have a good grasp of what worked, what didn't, and what sat squarely in the middle.

When I see certain posters continually descending to personal attacks, well, I can't read every topic and I can't read every post. If someone has a long history of popping into threads to say, essentially, 'DEVELOPER Y SHOULD BE FIRED' and posting long rants about that particular person, then it's going to colour my perception of them. Because while they're just names and faces to you, they're people I work with, and people I generally consider to be friends. So yes, it does affect my perception of someone's post if I continually see them attacking a particular developer.

Point out flaws in the decisions all you like. Bring up issues you have with particular mechanics - even if I don't agree with you, if it's well-defended and you support your arguments well then it'll give me something to think about, and it'll be a viewpoint I'll keep in mind in the future. But when you descend to personal attacks, it feels to me, at least, like you'd rather not spend the time defending your points, and it certainly doesn't contribute to a constructive forum environment.

There is a difference between a personal attack and attack on perceived company view points. First off, Mike Laidlaw is the only person that I have seen that does interviews. This makes him the PR guy whether he or Bioare likes it or not. When the PR guy is actually making things worse for your company, I would say there is a problem. He needs to get his affairs in order and try and make things better and not worse.

Secondly, your personal relationships are interfering with your ability to do your job at the best of your ability. Poor bussiness. If the United States ran on emotions and not by facts, we would be locked into a "War on Terror" for the past 10 years with an economy that ran straight into the ground. Good thing that didn't happen. This isn't an attack on you, I am just saying what I see through what you have told me. Feelings get in the way of bussiness, this is a fact.

You ask me 3 months ago if I would be on the forums complaining about Dragon Age 2. I would tell you that I doubt it and hope not. I don't want to be here 'bashing' a company that I used to trust. This is THE ONLY way I can be heard.

[Ariella]

Everwarden wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
He isn't always right, I'm sure. Is he right that DA2 is an improvement over DAO? Yes.  

Not if sales are an indication. 

Sold faster than DAO with 5 years of waiting behind it in first two weeks, after that there's always going to be a drop off unless you have something like Dark Knight or Harry Pottter of gaming.

[djwyattwood]

Ariella wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
He isn't always right, I'm sure. Is he right that DA2 is an improvement over DAO? Yes.  

Not if sales are an indication. 

Sold faster than DAO with 5 years of waiting behind it in first two weeks, after that there's always going to be a drop off unless you have something like Dark Knight or Harry Pottter of gaming.

Which over half of the sales of DA2 were predicated on DA:O's merrits and not its own.

[Ariella]

TUHD wrote...

@JohnEpler: I've mentioned it by now countless times before, and over half the times caught flak over it from people whom liked DA2, but what Mike does in interviews is just bad business. For example, the latest interview (I don't have the magazine myself, so I can't check it) with Game Informer: http://uk.gamespot.c...594&pid=988968.

What the heck is in there to ****** you off, TUHD? In fact he gives Origin players a complement when he talks about the learning curve for DA2's combat systems. Those Origins players who love the tactical element probably would find Hard to their liking because it is about working the team, and those Origins players have already jumped the curve to handle it. I don't see ANYTHING in his article that's inflamatory or that he hasn't said before.

[Ariella]

djwyattwood wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
He isn't always right, I'm sure. Is he right that DA2 is an improvement over DAO? Yes.  

Not if sales are an indication. 

Sold faster than DAO with 5 years of waiting behind it in first two weeks, after that there's always going to be a drop off unless you have something like Dark Knight or Harry Pottter of gaming.

Which over half of the sales of DA2 were predicated on DA:O's merrits and not its own.

You have stats to prove that?

[DreGregoire]

@Bioware. I guess I should have paid more attention to the forums instead of playing DA:O then I would have known to complain about the companies perceived notion that I didn't care about the direction they went. (I didn't even know that it was going to use a Mass Effect like system until I played it.)

The sad thing bioware is that people who are happy with a production don't generally come on the forums to chat about issues they don't have with the game. So it looks like you used feedback from complainers without any assertion from the game owners that were satisfied. So I'm not surprised that people are upset and are now bombarding these forums. The squeeky wheel gets the grease, right?

The survival of the type of game I love is at stake and given what was done to DA2, I can't help but hope for some answer as to if the next product will be like DA2 or the game style I love.

I certainly never received a customer survey asking me what I thought. I have DA:O for both PS3 and PC. I had planned the same for DA2, now I'm relieved that I didn't purchase it for PS3.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 19 avril 2011 - 10:06 .

[djwyattwood]

Ariella wrote...

djwyattwood wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
He isn't always right, I'm sure. Is he right that DA2 is an improvement over DAO? Yes.  

Not if sales are an indication. 

Sold faster than DAO with 5 years of waiting behind it in first two weeks, after that there's always going to be a drop off unless you have something like Dark Knight or Harry Pottter of gaming.

Which over half of the sales of DA2 were predicated on DA:O's merrits and not its own.

You have stats to prove that?

Look up pre-order numbers.

[Ariella]

djwyattwood wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Dalira Montanti wrote...

@johnEpler
I hope the situation becomes better for you guys and i do hope there will be some light at the end of this strange tunnel

People are passionate. That's good! Of course, the personal attacks become a little tiresome, not to mention that they tend to lead to an immediate discounting of someone's opinion.

Most people restrict themselves to discussing the game and the issues they have with it. That's good, useable feedback, and they make up the majority of those on the forum in the 'negative' camp. It's, unfortunately, the few but vocal that figure that attacking specific people is going to give their point any more weight.

So my opinnion is discounted because of reading interviews that the project lead did? It isn't my fault that the words he uses makes him look like a person who believes himself righteous.

Also, there is no way shape or form I can have a rational discussion with Mike Laidlaw one-on-one at this point. I am just a lowly customer who would need the Gods to shine upon him to get answers from big cheese Laidlaw. I paid for my game just like everyone else, do we not deserve answers?

Entitlement much? Fine, we get the idea that you don't like Mike, but the article in question, Mike is just a spokesperson for a larger entity ie the Dragon Age team, and you seem to come in looking for a fight because you disliked the product you got. Why should Laidlaw get into a verbal match with you or any of us, if it's just going to cause more headaches and is NOT part of his job description. God knows he, Mark Darrah and company are busy sorting through actual feedback that they can use to see where they can do better in the next game.

You aren't even talking about specific merits of pieces of the game he may have worked on, but fluff pieces where he's promoting the game. Everything you've said since starting this thread has been generized and personalized, as if Mike's specifically attacking YOU. I have yet to see any feedback that's in line with something that Bioware can actually use to make their product better. All I've seen is a lot of nastiness thrown at a guy for doing his job, and the calls for his ouster are just OUT of LINE.

[_Motoki_]

JohnEpler wrote...

Here's what it comes down to, though. The forums are extremely active - topics last for maybe an hour on the front page before they're pushed on to the second. From this, I (and others) try to get a sense of what the most common issues and concerns are among the fanbase so that we have a good grasp of what worked, what didn't, and what sat squarely in the middle.

First off let me say I do appreciate yourself and other Bioware staffing coming here to have a dialog with the customers. You mention that in reading the forums Bioware staff is getting a good idea of what worked and what didn't however I have to be honest that is not the impression I am getting at all when I come across statements from Bioware staff in various media. In fact, I get the idea that they don't see any problems with the game, are completely happy with it and don't understand why some of the customers would not be, attributing it to people not being accepting of change.

Now mind you, I have not read every single quote that has come from any Bioware employee since the release of this game, and I fully realize with the release of a new high profile game one has to be very careful what is said publicly as this can and does effect sales. Still, I feel like at least some degree of admitting that there were things that could have been done better and that maybe a lot of the discontent we are seeing isn't solely the fault of the fans would be a good start to quell some of the hard feelings and discontent.

I don't think it's wrong that people would except a direct sequel to a game to be reasonably similar to the original and to have most of the features they enjoyed about the original.

As human beings we all have different ways of expressing are emotions. I think a lot of Dragon Age Origins fans are deeply disappointed in Dragon Age 2. I know I definitely am. I think that the sentiment people who are disappointed with the game are having is genuine and valid even if the way they chose to express isn't always the most productive.

Modifié par _Motoki_, 19 avril 2011 - 10:20 .

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Ariella wrote...

djwyattwood wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Dalira Montanti wrote...

@johnEpler
I hope the situation becomes better for you guys and i do hope there will be some light at the end of this strange tunnel

People are passionate. That's good! Of course, the personal attacks become a little tiresome, not to mention that they tend to lead to an immediate discounting of someone's opinion.

Most people restrict themselves to discussing the game and the issues they have with it. That's good, useable feedback, and they make up the majority of those on the forum in the 'negative' camp. It's, unfortunately, the few but vocal that figure that attacking specific people is going to give their point any more weight.

So my opinnion is discounted because of reading interviews that the project lead did? It isn't my fault that the words he uses makes him look like a person who believes himself righteous.

Also, there is no way shape or form I can have a rational discussion with Mike Laidlaw one-on-one at this point. I am just a lowly customer who would need the Gods to shine upon him to get answers from big cheese Laidlaw. I paid for my game just like everyone else, do we not deserve answers?

Entitlement much? Fine, we get the idea that you don't like Mike, but the article in question, Mike is just a spokesperson for a larger entity ie the Dragon Age team, and you seem to come in looking for a fight because you disliked the product you got. Why should Laidlaw get into a verbal match with you or any of us, if it's just going to cause more headaches and is NOT part of his job description. God knows he, Mark Darrah and company are busy sorting through actual feedback that they can use to see where they can do better in the next game.

You aren't even talking about specific merits of pieces of the game he may have worked on, but fluff pieces where he's promoting the game. Everything you've said since starting this thread has been generized and personalized, as if Mike's specifically attacking YOU. I have yet to see any feedback that's in line with something that Bioware can actually use to make their product better. All I've seen is a lot of nastiness thrown at a guy for doing his job, and the calls for his ouster are just OUT of LINE.

Ariella is right. No one should be insulting and derogatory to the developers, especially since if they choose not to make games for us anymore, we won't get another opportunity to see the story of Dragon Age be refined and built upon.

Angry mobs are not productive, and no one deserves to be laid off because of customer nerd-rage.

[djwyattwood]

Ariella wrote...

djwyattwood wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Dalira Montanti wrote...

@johnEpler
I hope the situation becomes better for you guys and i do hope there will be some light at the end of this strange tunnel

People are passionate. That's good! Of course, the personal attacks become a little tiresome, not to mention that they tend to lead to an immediate discounting of someone's opinion.

Most people restrict themselves to discussing the game and the issues they have with it. That's good, useable feedback, and they make up the majority of those on the forum in the 'negative' camp. It's, unfortunately, the few but vocal that figure that attacking specific people is going to give their point any more weight.

So my opinnion is discounted because of reading interviews that the project lead did? It isn't my fault that the words he uses makes him look like a person who believes himself righteous.

Also, there is no way shape or form I can have a rational discussion with Mike Laidlaw one-on-one at this point. I am just a lowly customer who would need the Gods to shine upon him to get answers from big cheese Laidlaw. I paid for my game just like everyone else, do we not deserve answers?

Entitlement much? Fine, we get the idea that you don't like Mike, but the article in question, Mike is just a spokesperson for a larger entity ie the Dragon Age team, and you seem to come in looking for a fight because you disliked the product you got. Why should Laidlaw get into a verbal match with you or any of us, if it's just going to cause more headaches and is NOT part of his job description. God knows he, Mark Darrah and company are busy sorting through actual feedback that they can use to see where they can do better in the next game.

You aren't even talking about specific merits of pieces of the game he may have worked on, but fluff pieces where he's promoting the game. Everything you've said since starting this thread has been generized and personalized, as if Mike's specifically attacking YOU. I have yet to see any feedback that's in line with something that Bioware can actually use to make their product better. All I've seen is a lot of nastiness thrown at a guy for doing his job, and the calls for his ouster are just OUT of LINE.

I do have a sense of entitlement about products I purchase. You may see money as something you throw away, I try get the most value out of mine. I mistakenly preordered DA2 thinking I would get that value and didn't. I am not the only one. Also: don't say they are sorting through feedback when you have no idea what they are doing. You don't know. You are a wishful thinker. You don't seem to question much. You seem to be a person who follows blindly.

"All I've seen is a lot of nastiness thrown at a guy for doing his job, and the calls for his ouster are just OUT of LINE."

This is the issue. If he was good at his job, this thread wouldn't exist.

[Ariella]

djwyattwood wrote...

Ariella wrote...

djwyattwood wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
He isn't always right, I'm sure. Is he right that DA2 is an improvement over DAO? Yes.  

Not if sales are an indication. 

Sold faster than DAO with 5 years of waiting behind it in first two weeks, after that there's always going to be a drop off unless you have something like Dark Knight or Harry Pottter of gaming.

Which over half of the sales of DA2 were predicated on DA:O's merrits and not its own.

You have stats to prove that?

Look up pre-order numbers.

That doesn't prove your point. I know I guy who hated DAO but pre-ordered DA2 on the strength of ME2 and what he saw as the trailers and he loves it. Show me a break down where those numbers say "Yes, I ordered on the strenght of DAO alone". Hell, considering the craziness over DAA or ME2 and how many people said that would put them off preordering any Bioware products....

[djwyattwood]

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

Ariella wrote...

djwyattwood wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Dalira Montanti wrote...

@johnEpler
I hope the situation becomes better for you guys and i do hope there will be some light at the end of this strange tunnel

People are passionate. That's good! Of course, the personal attacks become a little tiresome, not to mention that they tend to lead to an immediate discounting of someone's opinion.

Most people restrict themselves to discussing the game and the issues they have with it. That's good, useable feedback, and they make up the majority of those on the forum in the 'negative' camp. It's, unfortunately, the few but vocal that figure that attacking specific people is going to give their point any more weight.

So my opinnion is discounted because of reading interviews that the project lead did? It isn't my fault that the words he uses makes him look like a person who believes himself righteous.

Also, there is no way shape or form I can have a rational discussion with Mike Laidlaw one-on-one at this point. I am just a lowly customer who would need the Gods to shine upon him to get answers from big cheese Laidlaw. I paid for my game just like everyone else, do we not deserve answers?

Entitlement much? Fine, we get the idea that you don't like Mike, but the article in question, Mike is just a spokesperson for a larger entity ie the Dragon Age team, and you seem to come in looking for a fight because you disliked the product you got. Why should Laidlaw get into a verbal match with you or any of us, if it's just going to cause more headaches and is NOT part of his job description. God knows he, Mark Darrah and company are busy sorting through actual feedback that they can use to see where they can do better in the next game.

You aren't even talking about specific merits of pieces of the game he may have worked on, but fluff pieces where he's promoting the game. Everything you've said since starting this thread has been generized and personalized, as if Mike's specifically attacking YOU. I have yet to see any feedback that's in line with something that Bioware can actually use to make their product better. All I've seen is a lot of nastiness thrown at a guy for doing his job, and the calls for his ouster are just OUT of LINE.

Ariella is right. No one should be insulting and derogatory to the developers, especially since if they choose not to make games for us anymore, we won't get another opportunity to see the story of Dragon Age be refined and built upon.

Angry mobs are not productive, and no one deserves to be laid off because of customer nerd-rage.

If nobody was angry about anything, nothing would get done.

[djwyattwood]

Ariella wrote...

djwyattwood wrote...

Ariella wrote...

djwyattwood wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
He isn't always right, I'm sure. Is he right that DA2 is an improvement over DAO? Yes.  

Not if sales are an indication. 

Sold faster than DAO with 5 years of waiting behind it in first two weeks, after that there's always going to be a drop off unless you have something like Dark Knight or Harry Pottter of gaming.

Which over half of the sales of DA2 were predicated on DA:O's merrits and not its own.

You have stats to prove that?

Look up pre-order numbers.

That doesn't prove your point. I know I guy who hated DAO but pre-ordered DA2 on the strength of ME2 and what he saw as the trailers and he loves it. Show me a break down where those numbers say "Yes, I ordered on the strenght of DAO alone". Hell, considering the craziness over DAA or ME2 and how many people said that would put them off preordering any Bioware products....

I stopped at "what he saw as the trailers." People buy games with 2's because of the 1. If 1 was bad, 2 wouldn't exist, PERIOD.

[Maverick827]

djwyattwood wrote...

I stopped at "what he saw as the trailers." People buy games with 2's because of the 1. If 1 was bad, 2 wouldn't exist, PERIOD.

You seem to believe you know more than you actually do.

Modifié par Maverick827, 19 avril 2011 - 10:28 .