263 réponses à ce sujet

[DownyTif]

Curlain wrote...

Ndutz wrote...

Lame sidequest?

Seriously how is dragon age ii sidequest any lamer than the chanter board sidequest in DA:O.

I'll bite on this.  The Chanter's Board at least gave you a logical ingame reason to know why a sextant you found belonged to someone and there was a reward for handing it in, etc it framed the fetch quests as a way for hired swords to quickly earn money.

This is opposed to pychic Hawke just finding things and knowing that some book/bones/spoon etc belongs to someone standing in Hightown around the market square/or in Low Town around the Hanged Man.  The fetch quests were litterly stripped down to the bearest minum of implimention, to the point that they don't make sense at at all in the world.  Hawke just 'knows' where to take them, and that s/he'll be rewarded by these random sttrangers?  Seriously?

The board at least gave the fetch quest a logical frame of reference for the Warden to know such things are wanted, and they would be rewarded for them.  The DA2 fetch quests were streamlined to the point of silliness, completely breaking the 4th wall.  Since they are hardly mandatory, I wish they had just cut the fetch quests out rather then strip them down to the extent they did.

I agree, I felt the same way. Hell, I even liked the idea of Chantry board, Mage Collective, etc. !! And at least there was a background to the side-quests that way. but hey again, it's just my opinion 

[MorrigansLove]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Merci357 wrote...

He is likely often wrong, and he'll admit it, in time. Right now it's just that he needs to sell this game, and you don't do that if the developer bashes it. Once we are closer to DA3 (if that's the next project, and not JE2), he might be quite open minded about what was wrong with DA2, or didn't work so well.

Unfortunately the game is selling very well and because it's selling very well, you'll not see him admit that anything was wrong with it.  Face it, the game was not meant for us hard core DAO fans.  It was meant to bring in new people to the Bioware customer list.

It's selling well? Well, that's news to me.

[Ndutz]

Curlain wrote...

Ndutz wrote...

Lame sidequest?

Seriously how is dragon age ii sidequest any lamer than the chanter board sidequest in DA:O.

I'll bite on this.  The Chanter's Board at least gave you a logical ingame reason to know why a sextant you found belonged to someone and there was a reward for handing it in, etc it framed the fetch quests as a way for hired swords to quickly earn money.

This is opposed to pychic Hawke just finding things and knowing that some book/bones/spoon etc belongs to someone standing in Hightown around the market square/or in Low Town around the Hanged Man.  The fetch quests were litterly stripped down to the bearest minum of implimention, to the point that they don't make sense at at all in the world.  Hawke just 'knows' where to take them, and that s/he'll be rewarded by these random sttrangers?  Seriously?

The board at least gave the fetch quest a logical frame of reference for the Warden to know such things are wanted, and they would be rewarded for them.  The DA2 fetch quests were streamlined to the point of silliness, completely breaking the 4th wall.  Since they are hardly mandatory, I wish they had just cut the fetch quests out rather then strip them down to the extent they did.

I see your point here. Indeed it is massively streamlined. I guess the point is to reward player who take the time to Loot (part of the fun in an rpg) without actually making it feel like a fecth quest (for example Herbalist Task).  Instead of having a board clustered with menial and tedious task they just try to make things simple for you so you can complete this on the go.

The game could use a little poilsh but its certainly not an abyssmal disaster like some posted. They actually did some things better than origin (ie Party Banter).

[Maverick827]

DownyTif wrote...

Yep, that's why I wrote "My opinion" before anything else. And please enlight me on the dialogue system and how I'm "completely inaccurate", I'm really curious!

Well, you're responding to a discussion in which I asked all of the "objectively bad" elements of the game to be named with a list of your opinions.

[Curlain]

Ndutz wrote...


I see your point here. Indeed it is massively streamlined. I guess the point is to reward player who take the time to Loot (part of the fun in an rpg) without actually making it feel like a fecth quest (for example Herbalist Task).  Instead of having a board clustered with menial and tedious task they just try to make things simple for you so you can complete this on the go.

The game could use a little poilsh but its certainly not an abyssmal disaster like some posted. They actually did some things better than origin (ie Party Banter).

Agreed on Party Banter, on the whole it was one area I did think DA2 did better overall

[AkiKishi]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

This. Fetch quests in both games were cringe-worthy (why would the Chantry need zombie brains, and why is Sister Plinth's remains garbage)

For study.

Psychic Hawke is just too much though.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 19 avril 2011 - 02:30 .

[DownyTif]

Maverick827 wrote...

DownyTif wrote...

Yep, that's why I wrote "My opinion" before anything else. And please enlight me on the dialogue system and how I'm "completely inaccurate", I'm really curious!

Well, you're responding to a discussion in which I asked all of the "objectively bad" elements of the game to be named with a list of your opinions.

If you truly think you will get an "objectively bad" list, well you will be disappointed. Everything is about opinions. The recycled maps didn't even bother some of the players, how can this be objectively put?

Maverick827 wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

But a LOT of the things are just sub-standard and lazy and lacking compared to what people are used to from Bioware.

Name them.  

The only one I can think of is recycled maps, which I have yet to see anyone from BioWare say was an intentional change that they were happy to make rather than a concession made from a lack of time.

Please tell me where in your reply is the "in which I asked all of the "objectively bad" elements of the game to be named" part, cause I don't see it. If you refer to your other post, well that's why I explained my points instead of just making a list.

[Abispa]

To be honest, I hardly ever read the Chantry board, nor paid attention the Mages, Crows, Denerim thief, Irregulars or the bartender in DA:O. I just automatically checked off each "job" offered and, often, in the middle of my walking around, I'd see an arrow and know that there's a job I could be doing when I had the time. I didn't realize what the hell I was doing the first time I went up to the well. Fed Ex quests are an RPG staple, and I do find them annoying and trivial, even in the "holy" DA:O, but it doesn't really improve things for the game-makers to belabor the silly nature of the Fed Ex quest by making them even more nonsensical even if they are much faster and easier to perform in DA2.

[Maverick827]

DownyTif wrote...

Please tell me where in your reply is the "in which I asked all of the "objectively bad" elements of the game to be named" part, cause I don't see it. If you refer to your other post, well that's why I explained my points instead of just making a list.

I apologise; I did not fully quote the post to which I was responding:

There are a lot of things you can say are subjective about not liking DA II (or in most BW fan-boys, feeling let-down and disappointed).But a LOT of the things are just sub-standard and lazy and lacking compared to what people are used to from Bioware.

The poster was implying that things might only seem subjective (e.g. "you can say are subjective") but in reality are factually "bad" (e.g. "But A LOT...").  I was asking him to name these things that were factually "bad."

[Abispa]

One thing that RPGs have done that annoys me, and the DA 1 & 2 quests are partly responsible, is that I become a hoarder. I pick up EVERYTHING and click on EVERY dead body, crate and bookcase. I look all over for ways to expand my backpack and in old days I'd make sure even my Gnomes were bodybuilders so my party could carry more stuff. It is annoying.

By labeling things as "junk," DA2 helped me out by allowing me to quickly sell off the stuff I didn't need, where in DA:O I carried papers, books and chalices around forever in case they'd be important. Reminds me of the days I carried around a dead cat in Icewind Dale 2.

But my point is that, like the streamlined quests, DA2 sped up an annoying RPG tradition buy replacing it with an easier, yet immersion breaking process. I applaud the Bioware seeing the need for experimentation, but hope they haven't settled on DA2 changes for future games.

[Zeevico]

Abispa wrote...

To be honest, I hardly ever read the Chantry board, nor paid attention the Mages, Crows, Denerim thief, Irregulars or the bartender in DA:O. I just automatically checked off each "job" offered and, often, in the middle of my walking around, I'd see an arrow and know that there's a job I could be doing when I had the time. I didn't realize what the hell I was doing the first time I went up to the well. Fed Ex quests are an RPG staple, and I do find them annoying and trivial, even in the "holy" DA:O, but it doesn't really improve things for the game-makers to belabor the silly nature of the Fed Ex quest by making them even more nonsensical even if they are much faster and easier to perform in DA2.

Yeah but remember the little kid in Lothering and the Chantry Board?

There's fedex quests and there's quests done right. Even "fedex quests" can tell a story sometimes. I liked most of the 'fedex' quests in DAO for that reason.

Modifié par Zeevico, 19 avril 2011 - 04:19 .

[DownyTif]

Maverick827 wrote...

DownyTif wrote...

Please tell me where in your reply is the "in which I asked all of the "objectively bad" elements of the game to be named" part, cause I don't see it. If you refer to your other post, well that's why I explained my points instead of just making a list.

I apologise; I did not fully quote the post to which I was responding:

There are a lot of things you can say are subjective about not liking DA II (or in most BW fan-boys, feeling let-down and disappointed).But a LOT of the things are just sub-standard and lazy and lacking compared to what people are used to from Bioware.

The poster was implying that things might only seem subjective (e.g. "you can say are subjective") but in reality are factually "bad" (e.g. "But A LOT...").  I was asking him to name these things that were factually "bad."

ok, thanks for the clarification
Yeah I kind of steped in a conversation you had with the guy with my list, apologies for that.. I still think it's gonna be hard to pinpoint factually bad stuff, because there is a lot of emotions in the DA2 debate. Also because for some people the game is the best ever, flawless "chef d'oeuvre", and for some DA2 is a total joke. I could try to make a new list, but apart from recycled areas, I doubt anything I will write will be a consensus since it's all a matter of opinions or comparaison with DAO.

[Night Prowler76]

Filament wrote...

djwyattwood wrote...

He defends the repeated dungeons. Defends lame sidequests.

And his defenses are reasonable, even if I disagree.

Defends push A for Awesome.

That was always just a meaningless marketing gimmick.

Defends poor storytelling. Defends the non-tactical combat.

Questionable assertions.

He constantly says things like "personally" amd "my opinnion" with regards to direction on Dragon Age 2. He essentially built the game that he wanted and not the game that the fans wanted. He built the game for people who didn't play Dragon Age: Origins.

I'd rather the lead designer makes what he has the vision to make rather than hold a democratic fan election regarding the direction of the franchise.

Also, you don't speak for all fans.

Yah, we see how well his "viosion" worked out, hes as oblivious as you are.

[DownyTif]

Zeevico wrote...

Abispa wrote...

To be honest, I hardly ever read the Chantry board, nor paid attention the Mages, Crows, Denerim thief, Irregulars or the bartender in DA:O. I just automatically checked off each "job" offered and, often, in the middle of my walking around, I'd see an arrow and know that there's a job I could be doing when I had the time. I didn't realize what the hell I was doing the first time I went up to the well. Fed Ex quests are an RPG staple, and I do find them annoying and trivial, even in the "holy" DA:O, but it doesn't really improve things for the game-makers to belabor the silly nature of the Fed Ex quest by making them even more nonsensical even if they are much faster and easier to perform in DA2.

Yeah but remember the little kid in Lothering and the Chantry Board?

There's fedex quests and there's quests done right. Even "fedex quests" can tell a story sometimes. I liked most of the 'fedex' quests in DAO for that reason.

Yeah that's a good point here. I do remember the little kid in Lothering asking for his mother. A game I played a year ago. And with all honesty, I can't remember half the Fed-Ex quests in DA2, a game I'm currently playing.

[Gaius Octavian]

I had Mike Laidlaw over for dinner with my family, he seemed to be a genuinely good guy who thought that the changes in DA2 were WHAT THE FANBASE wanted. He then excused himself from the table, and moments later I heard my 2 week old child cry out in horrific pain. I walk into the living room to find Mike Laidlaw with MY CHILD inside of his mouth. And then, powerless to stop it, I watched him crush down with his mighty jaws and destroy my only child.. He ate ravenously... And when I asked in horror and shock "Why Laidlaw, WHY?!", the only response I got was "I needed to re-fuel". He then walked out, and I never heard from him or seen him since.

Beware everyone. Mike Laidlaw eats babies.

[Ariella]

Out of a morbid sense of curiosity, did any of those who seem to loath Mike watch the two making of videos on the Bioware site? Because if one had one might get a better feeling of how DA2 came together as a team effort rather than just Mike:
http://dragonage.bio...allery/videos/2

In fact, from watching the first of the two, one gets the sense that Mike and Mark Darrah (exec producer) had to reign Matt Goldman (art director) in. In the end though, the point is DA2 was a team effort, that came from the imaginations of many people. Mike's job was to keep everything running smoothly and make sure they all stayed on the same page, plus be the front man.

The impression that Mike is always "right" seems to be applied to him rather than coming from him.

As for the whole Brent Knowles angle, we have no clue what his vision really was because DAO was ALSO developed by a team, including Mike Laidlaw, Dave Gaider (who pretty much is the lorekeeper of DA) Mark Darrah and company.

None of these games are the work of one person, so blame and finger pointing (while a human response to disappointment) are not exactly constructive at this point.

[aliswann10]

 I marginally liked DA 2 and I don't waste my time bashing it on forums but if DA 3 is as rushed and stripped down as DA 2, I'm not buying. I'm definitely not pre-odering next time and I'll wait for reviews first before buying. If I would have read the reviews for DA 2 first I wouldn't have bought it.

[neppakyo]

Ariella wrote...


As for the whole Brent Knowles angle, we have no clue what his vision really was because DAO was ALSO developed by a team, including Mike Laidlaw, Dave Gaider (who pretty much is the lorekeeper of DA) Mark Darrah and company.

You're wrong about that. Laidlaw was brought in late, after origins was finished, to port it to xbox360. His only credit for the game.

During Origins development, he was working on Jade Empire(came out around 2006 I think)

[Everwarden]

MorrigansLove wrote...

It's selling well? Well, that's news to me.

Well, it broke 1 million sales. It's unlikely it will break 2 million, so it just depends on your definition of 'well'. For a AAA title that had a lot of momentum (near half a million pre-orders), the sales look pretty grim. 

[oldmansavage]

I think Laidlow is one of those gamers that honestly didn't like DA:O.  He likes his hack n slash action adventure game.   I suppose in my mind Dragon Age was a crpg and was going to remain that way.  If they wanted to try the action adventure route they should of made a different game not associated with the dragon age universe. 

I think he would fit in well with the Two Worlds development team.

[oldmansavage]

double

Modifié par oldmansavage, 19 avril 2011 - 05:49 .

[oldmansavage]

Ariella wrote...

Out of a morbid sense of curiosity, did any of those who seem to loath Mike watch the two making of videos on the Bioware site? Because if one had one might get a better feeling of how DA2 came together as a team effort rather than just Mike:
http://dragonage.bio...allery/videos/2

In fact, from watching the first of the two, one gets the sense that Mike and Mark Darrah (exec producer) had to reign Matt Goldman (art director) in. In the end though, the point is DA2 was a team effort, that came from the imaginations of many people. Mike's job was to keep everything running smoothly and make sure they all stayed on the same page, plus be the front man.

The impression that Mike is always "right" seems to be applied to him rather than coming from him.

As for the whole Brent Knowles angle, we have no clue what his vision really was because DAO was ALSO developed by a team, including Mike Laidlaw, Dave Gaider (who pretty much is the lorekeeper of DA) Mark Darrah and company.

None of these games are the work of one person, so blame and finger pointing (while a human response to disappointment) are not exactly constructive at this point.

Very good point.  It takes a team effort to make something this bad.

[_Motoki_]

DownyTif wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

Abispa wrote...

To be honest, I hardly ever read the Chantry board, nor paid attention the Mages, Crows, Denerim thief, Irregulars or the bartender in DA:O. I just automatically checked off each "job" offered and, often, in the middle of my walking around, I'd see an arrow and know that there's a job I could be doing when I had the time. I didn't realize what the hell I was doing the first time I went up to the well. Fed Ex quests are an RPG staple, and I do find them annoying and trivial, even in the "holy" DA:O, but it doesn't really improve things for the game-makers to belabor the silly nature of the Fed Ex quest by making them even more nonsensical even if they are much faster and easier to perform in DA2.

Yeah but remember the little kid in Lothering and the Chantry Board?

There's fedex quests and there's quests done right. Even "fedex quests" can tell a story sometimes. I liked most of the 'fedex' quests in DAO for that reason.

Yeah that's a good point here. I do remember the little kid in Lothering asking for his mother. A game I played a year ago. And with all honesty, I can't remember half the Fed-Ex quests in DA2, a game I'm currently playing.

While I admit most of the chantry quests were pretty standard generic RPG Fed Ex fare, a couple were really good. The little boy's one was memorable. Depending upon how you handled Jowan, there was potentially also a good one involving him that gave some more insight into his character and his fate. Unfortunately, that quest was bugged and you kind of had to do backflips to even get to it, but still these are the kind of optional quests I prefer.

[jds1bio]

I find it incredibly short-sighted to blame the faults of one game on one person, no matter what that person says. The only way you would have seen a game director/producer realistically get the axe for a videogame is

a) if that person had carte-blanche with every design, art, sound, gameplay, technical, marketing, and financial decision

no one who worked with the person liked them, and they just needed an excuse to let them go

If people had bought Origins in the numbers that bought Call Of Duty, you'd see a DA2 that resembles Origins much more closely. That is the reality of the market. Instead, BioWare (as they do with all their games anyway) took a gamble with DA2 and hoped the market would respond favorably to the counts of millions upon millions of gamers. They couldn't convince the CoD crowd to join up, and as some of you have pointed out in the forums here and there, neither could you when you showed them DA2.

It doesn't make someone always right, but if you want someone to say that their product sucks even though they've sold over a million copies, you're just not going to get that. And if you want someone to say that the preceding product is better than the current product, while the current product is actively being sold, that's not going to happen either.

[DownyTif]

_Motoki_ wrote...

DownyTif wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

Abispa wrote...

To be honest, I hardly ever read the Chantry board, nor paid attention the Mages, Crows, Denerim thief, Irregulars or the bartender in DA:O. I just automatically checked off each "job" offered and, often, in the middle of my walking around, I'd see an arrow and know that there's a job I could be doing when I had the time. I didn't realize what the hell I was doing the first time I went up to the well. Fed Ex quests are an RPG staple, and I do find them annoying and trivial, even in the "holy" DA:O, but it doesn't really improve things for the game-makers to belabor the silly nature of the Fed Ex quest by making them even more nonsensical even if they are much faster and easier to perform in DA2.

Yeah but remember the little kid in Lothering and the Chantry Board?

There's fedex quests and there's quests done right. Even "fedex quests" can tell a story sometimes. I liked most of the 'fedex' quests in DAO for that reason.

Yeah that's a good point here. I do remember the little kid in Lothering asking for his mother. A game I played a year ago. And with all honesty, I can't remember half the Fed-Ex quests in DA2, a game I'm currently playing.

While I admit most of the chantry quests were pretty standard generic RPG Fed Ex fare, a couple were really good. The little boy's one was memorable. Depending upon how you handled Jowan, there was potentially also a good one involving him that gave some more insight into his character and his fate. Unfortunately, that quest was bugged and you kind of had to do backflips to even get to it, but still these are the kind of optional quests I prefer.

Ah yes Jowan! For my first playthrough, I was playing a male Dalish Elf (rogue) and met Jowan in Redcliff. For my second playthrough, I played a female mage and met Jowan at the Tower... and then in Redcliff. It was nice to have a different aspect of that NPC and different reactions depending on your origin when you encounter him in Redcliff.

Out of topic, but well it keeps the thread alive