178 réponses à ce sujet

[Dubya75]

Rockpopple wrote...

@ Persephone - Oh I'm not afraid of you (Take that in a good way... Oh Maker, forget I said anything). You and Bob just seem to have a thing going and I don't want to interfere overmuch.

@ Dubya75 - Hmm... I didn't really notice any of that. Or let's just say, I noticed the bodies in Fenris' mansion a lot more. I could auto-rationalize why characters were standing in the same place time and time again. I have, after-all, played video games all my life. I know how things go.

But Fenris' mansion, those were bodies. They'd stink after a while. I knew that. And I knew that large periods of time were flying by, because Fenris always mentioned it while at his place. So it was more in the front of my mind than in the back.

@ Bob - I'll give you that it was immersion-breaking, but I didn't see it as a lazy-attitude. I saw it as stuff they wish they could have done better but couldn't, for whatever reason. As Persephone has pointed out, I saw the same stuff in Origins. I didn't call the devs lazy at the time for it either. There's a lot of things put up on the whiteboard that never get crossed out. Just how things go.

Ok fair enough RockPopple, maybe my examples were over-simplifying things. 
To put things in perspective, go visit Redclife Village from time to time during a playthrough of Origins and see just how static things can be...it's definitely not something new.
Fenris' house happen to have corpses lying around (which in hindsight probably is not a good prop choice) but all the companion locations remain just as static during the game.

Modifié par Dubya75, 19 avril 2011 - 02:46 .

[Rockpopple]

Oh, "Corpses R Us". Out of Orlais, was it? They do good work.

[Persephone]

MorrigansLove wrote...

drvaughn1999 wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Fact: The bodies in Fenris' mansion do not magically disappear.
Opinion: Persephone thinks these are hunters/intruders Fenris killed

So what?

That just happen to look exactly the same and just happen to have fallen in the same posistion?

There is no answer to logic like that.Whatever lets you "live" with DA2 I guess.

Not exactly game breaking is it?

It's immersion breaking, it's also indicative of the overall lazy attitude of DA2. It's the little touches that seperate AAA games from everything else.

There are plenty of game breaking issues. But that's more for the tech forums.

But how come this was not an issue for anyone in Origins? 

I believe it was, we need to review the old forums from DA:O to be sure.

I guess they were oblivious to the most significant flaws in origins.

Nothing wrong with that. It IS a great game.

I'd only like to be permitted to feel the same way about DAII.

[Dubya75]

Persephone wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

drvaughn1999 wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Fact: The bodies in Fenris' mansion do not magically disappear.
Opinion: Persephone thinks these are hunters/intruders Fenris killed

So what?

That just happen to look exactly the same and just happen to have fallen in the same posistion?

There is no answer to logic like that.Whatever lets you "live" with DA2 I guess.

Not exactly game breaking is it?

It's immersion breaking, it's also indicative of the overall lazy attitude of DA2. It's the little touches that seperate AAA games from everything else.

There are plenty of game breaking issues. But that's more for the tech forums.

But how come this was not an issue for anyone in Origins? 

I believe it was, we need to review the old forums from DA:O to be sure.

I guess they were oblivious to the most significant flaws in origins.

Nothing wrong with that. It IS a great game.

I'd only like to be permitted to feel the same way about DAII.

Thank the Maker we don't need anyone's permission!

[solstickan]

Rockpopple wrote...


@ Dubya75 - Hmm... I didn't really notice any of that. Or let's just say, I noticed the bodies in Fenris' mansion a lot more. I could auto-rationalize why characters were standing in the same place time and time again. I have, after-all, played video games all my life. I know how things go.

But Fenris' mansion, those were bodies. They'd stink after a while. I knew that. And I knew that large periods of time were flying by, because Fenris always mentioned it while at his place. So it was more in the front of my mind than in the back.

I didn't notice them at all. And if it weren't for people mentioning it on the forums I would probably still live in ignorant bliss. (Still haven't spotted any, though I don't spend that much time in his mansion and I always overlook details...) But maybe I'm the only one...

In any case, corpses indoors is definately not one of the gripes I had with the game (which I loved, mind you).

[MorrigansLove]

Dubya75 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

drvaughn1999 wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Fact: The bodies in Fenris' mansion do not magically disappear.
Opinion: Persephone thinks these are hunters/intruders Fenris killed

So what?

That just happen to look exactly the same and just happen to have fallen in the same posistion?

There is no answer to logic like that.Whatever lets you "live" with DA2 I guess.

Not exactly game breaking is it?

It's immersion breaking, it's also indicative of the overall lazy attitude of DA2. It's the little touches that seperate AAA games from everything else.

There are plenty of game breaking issues. But that's more for the tech forums.

But how come this was not an issue for anyone in Origins? 

I believe it was, we need to review the old forums from DA:O to be sure.

I guess they were oblivious to the most significant flaws in origins.

Nothing wrong with that. It IS a great game.

I'd only like to be permitted to feel the same way about DAII.

Thank the Maker we don't need anyone's permission!

Make peace, not war, baby.

[drvaughn1999]

Persephone wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

drvaughn1999 wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Fact: The bodies in Fenris' mansion do not magically disappear.
Opinion: Persephone thinks these are hunters/intruders Fenris killed

So what?

That just happen to look exactly the same and just happen to have fallen in the same posistion?

There is no answer to logic like that.Whatever lets you "live" with DA2 I guess.

Not exactly game breaking is it?

It's immersion breaking, it's also indicative of the overall lazy attitude of DA2. It's the little touches that seperate AAA games from everything else.

There are plenty of game breaking issues. But that's more for the tech forums.

But how come this was not an issue for anyone in Origins? 

I believe it was, we need to review the old forums from DA:O to be sure.

I guess they were oblivious to the most significant flaws in origins.

Nothing wrong with that. It IS a great game.

I'd only like to be permitted to feel the same way about DAII.

I say feel the same, feel the same!

[Persephone]

Dubya75 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Nothing wrong with that. It IS a great game.

I'd only like to be permitted to feel the same way about DAII.

Thank the Maker we don't need anyone's permission!

If only that were true. But we're getting there.

[AkiKishi]

[quote]Dubya75 wrote...
@ Bob - I'll give you that it was immersion-breaking, but I didn't see it as a lazy-attitude. I saw it as stuff they wish they could have done better but couldn't, for whatever reason. As Persephone has pointed out, I saw the same stuff in Origins. I didn't call the devs lazy at the time for it either. There's a lot of things put up on the whiteboard that never get crossed out. Just how things go.
[/quote]

Ok fair enough RockPopple, maybe my examples were over-simplifying things. 
To put things in perspective, go visit Redclife Village from time to time during a playthrough of Origins and see just how static things can be...it's definitely not something new.
Fenris' house happen to have corpses lying around (which in hindsight probably is not a good prop choice) but all the companion locations remain just as static during the game.

[/quote]

If you cut to the chase, like why things are the way they are it's all about padding out the game

This is exactly what I meant when I said Origins is a game about moving to other locations. Origins does not change, but you don't spend all your time on the same maps either. By visiting the same areas over and over DA2 is hammering into your brain just how little things have changed. The time skips just make it worse.
It's telling you time has passed. But you can't see it because everyone still looks the same.

[Curlain]

[quote]BobSmith101 wrote...

[quote]Dubya75 wrote...
@ Bob - I'll give you that it was immersion-breaking, but I didn't see it as a lazy-attitude. I saw it as stuff they wish they could have done better but couldn't, for whatever reason. As Persephone has pointed out, I saw the same stuff in Origins. I didn't call the devs lazy at the time for it either. There's a lot of things put up on the whiteboard that never get crossed out. Just how things go.
[/quote]

Ok fair enough RockPopple, maybe my examples were over-simplifying things. 
To put things in perspective, go visit Redclife Village from time to time during a playthrough of Origins and see just how static things can be...it's definitely not something new.
Fenris' house happen to have corpses lying around (which in hindsight probably is not a good prop choice) but all the companion locations remain just as static during the game.

[/quote]

If you cut to the chase, like why things are the way they are it's all about padding out the game

This is exactly what I meant when I said Origins is a game about moving to other locations. Origins does not change, but you don't spend all your time on the same maps either. By visiting the same areas over and over DA2 is hammering into your brain just how little things have changed. The time skips just make it worse.
It's telling you time has passed. But you can't see it because everyone still looks the same.

[/quote]

I agree on this.  Kirkwall for instance is better designed then Denerium no doubt.  However you only spend a small amount of game time in Denerium (the longest sustained time being the Landsmeet and even then you are not trapped there), it merely one of a number of hubs you pass through to buy things from and interact with certain npcs (just like Lothering, Redcliffe, Orzammar and the Dalish camp etc).  In this respect while it could be better it was fine for the purpose it served.

Kirkwall on the other hand, you spend the entire game either there, at Sundermount or on the costal road, and it never changes over 7 years (appart from a statue in the Docks I think).  With the fact it was the almost sole focus of the game (in terms of environments) and with the time span, I think it needed much more life to it (like Vizma in TW or Atkaltha (sp?) in BG2 for example) and more example of change over the 7 years.

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

This is exactly what I meant when I said Origins is a game about moving to other locations. Origins does not change, but you don't spend all your time on the same maps either. By visiting the same areas over and over DA2 is hammering into your brain just how little things have changed. The time skips just make it worse.
It's telling you time has passed. But you can't see it because everyone still looks the same.

THIS I understand and do support in the larger scheme of things. I'd have liked to see Kirkwall change over time. I had the idea of maybe setting each Act in a different season (Adjusting the wilderness too, the Wounded Coast in winter would look sweet!). Open up new districts in the city as time passes or open villages, outskirts... That I would have liked indeed.

[Rockpopple]

@ Bob - Looks like you finally found a nit we can all agree on. I'll get the bubbly.

But in all seriousness, you're right. With the same location and the time-skips, BioWare definitely shoulda put "MAKE KIRKWALL CHANGE IN TIME" near the top of their to-do list, rather than near the bottom. I think they just didn't have the time to do it. It's one of those things that, if there was a longer production period, I'm almost 100% positive would have turned out differently.

Also, Bob, you need to mellow out a little. Let your hair down. It's not all gloom. It's gonna be okay.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 19 avril 2011 - 03:04 .

[Chromie]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Fieryeel wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

What's your point exactly? Everyone knows the maps have been re-used. It's been discussed to death. EVERYONE knows about this.
I really don't think there is any need to keep hammering on about this.

Fieryeel: rivalry (+5)

I was simply wondering about it, and wanted to know the true number.

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Actually The Fade sequence is later re-used as the Templar HQ.

Fieryeel: friendship (+5)

True, but I left that out as it was a scene that made sense.

LOL, love your approach!...at least we still have a chance for romance, right? 

Forget it! Since i'm using the Approve/Disapprove system

/console zz_dae_debug add approval +100...dry humping time now.

[Zem_]

Persephone wrote...

Nothing wrong with that. It IS a great game.

I'd only like to be permitted to feel the same way about DAII.

You can say DAO re-used some maps.  Heck, you can say Baldur's Gate re-used maps.  It's a common trick.  If a location is meant to be the same location then they tend to use the same map.  What you can't say with any grain of truth to it is that these other games re-used maps to the same ridiculous degree that DA2 did.  THAT is the real crticism.  Not that it was done.  But how MUCH it was done.  And how.

Nobody gives a damn if they re-used the party camp or some random outdoor encounter map (and even then Origins had a decent assortment of them to choose from).  But Origins didn't send you to the Werewolf Lair and then to the Sacred Ashes Gauntlet and give you a "Generic Temple Ruin" map in both cases.  They were distinct locations (and not to mention each was larger than ANYTHING in DA2).

It's not even close to a fair comparison between the two.  Origins gets away with whatever re-use it did because it contains a FAR greater number of unique maps.  DA2's re-use was forced by the short development cycle.  If you don't criticize it for that they will just do it again. 

Simple question:  Would you prefer the number of maps and unique locales you had in Origins or the greatly reduced number we had in DA2?  If the latter, please keep defending DA2's bargain cut-rate approach to game development.  It may just be the new order.

[Persephone]

Zem_ wrote...

Simple question:  Would you prefer the number of maps and unique locales you had in Origins or the greatly reduced number we had in DA2?

Simple answer: I've always said that while I think that the enviroments they DID give us were lovely, the constant re-use was sloppy.

[Chromie]

Persephone wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

Simple question:  Would you prefer the number of maps and unique locales you had in Origins or the greatly reduced number we had in DA2?

Simple answer: I've always said that while I think that the enviroments they DID give us were lovely, the constant re-use was sloppy.

Is that even a serious question? The graphics weren't good enough for us to have to play the same areas through out the entire game.

[Persephone]

Ringo12 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

Simple question:  Would you prefer the number of maps and unique locales you had in Origins or the greatly reduced number we had in DA2?

Simple answer: I've always said that while I think that the enviroments they DID give us were lovely, the constant re-use was sloppy.

Is that even a serious question? The graphics weren't good enough for us to have to play the same areas through out the entire game.

This I completely disagree with. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

[MorrigansLove]

http://oi53.tinypic.com/2ma1ch.jpg - Dragon Age 2's graphics were amazing, what are you guys on?

[nopho]

Persephone wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

Simple question:  Would you prefer the number of maps and unique locales you had in Origins or the greatly reduced number we had in DA2?

Simple answer: I've always said that while I think that the enviroments they DID give us were lovely, the constant re-use was sloppy.

Is that even a serious question? The graphics weren't good enough for us to have to play the same areas through out the entire game.

This I completely disagree with. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

while i agree to it, wouldn't you too say that all in DA-2 felt a bit...empty?
i for (one) example wondered the whole time in the deep roads where all the wacky constructions of the darkspawn are we had in DA:O.
i mean it was made pretty clear in the game that usualy these tunnels would be full of them, just after a blight not.
all in all i found that every area looked as if...stuff were missing. all the little things you add to make rooms not look empty (with few exceptions)

[Chromie]

MorrigansLove wrote...

http://oi53.tinypic.com/2ma1ch.jpg - Dragon Age 2's graphics were amazing, what are you guys on?

And well empty maybe but what I never liked if the darkspawn leave a taint wherever they have been how come the Deeproads looks like rock ONLY where's the taint?

Modifié par Ringo12, 19 avril 2011 - 03:34 .

[AkiKishi]

nopho wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

Simple question:  Would you prefer the number of maps and unique locales you had in Origins or the greatly reduced number we had in DA2?

Simple answer: I've always said that while I think that the enviroments they DID give us were lovely, the constant re-use was sloppy.

Is that even a serious question? The graphics weren't good enough for us to have to play the same areas through out the entire game.

This I completely disagree with. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

while i agree to it, wouldn't you too say that all in DA-2 felt a bit...empty?
i for (one) example wondered the whole time in the deep roads where all the wacky constructions of the darkspawn are we had in DA:O.
i mean it was made pretty clear in the game that usualy these tunnels would be full of them, just after a blight not.
all in all i found that every area looked as if...stuff were missing. all the little things you add to make rooms not look empty (with few exceptions)

For me it's less about graphics and more about style.



First off that looks like a city.
Second ,people are reacting to you (see the combat a bit further in).

Modifié par BobSmith101, 19 avril 2011 - 03:52 .

[Chromie]

Wasn't Kirkwall suppose to be the best city in games? >.>
Nowhere near Rome in Assassin's Creed.

[nopho]

BobSmith101 wrote...

nopho wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

Simple question:  Would you prefer the number of maps and unique locales you had in Origins or the greatly reduced number we had in DA2?

Simple answer: I've always said that while I think that the enviroments they DID give us were lovely, the constant re-use was sloppy.

Is that even a serious question? The graphics weren't good enough for us to have to play the same areas through out the entire game.

This I completely disagree with. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

while i agree to it, wouldn't you too say that all in DA-2 felt a bit...empty?
i for (one) example wondered the whole time in the deep roads where all the wacky constructions of the darkspawn are we had in DA:O.
i mean it was made pretty clear in the game that usualy these tunnels would be full of them, just after a blight not.
all in all i found that every area looked as if...stuff were missing. all the little things you add to make rooms not look empty (with few exceptions)

For me it's less about graphics and more about style.



First off that looks like a city.
Second ,people are reacting to you (see the combat a bit further in).

well for me that adds style too.
as i openly admit that i am one of the nerds for whom DA:O wasn't deep enough, when encountering those darkspawn structures in Origins i got the feeling of "past that line is bat country" that in there serious sh*t will happen. in DA2 it all looked the same (harharhar) i never got the feeling that i am deep in any cave.

first rule of visual media, show don't tell. let me wander into the deep roads not tell me i just wandered 2weeks. but i guess that would have required actual deep roads areas to be made.

Modifié par nopho, 19 avril 2011 - 04:01 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

Seems like the conversation has gone civil again.

Kirkwall was a wasted opportunity to do something very interesting (and unique) by having the time skips. It should have been a sandbox city, without zones, running from the Docks all the way up to Hightown should have been possible (with warp areas for fast travel--like the elevators we see in Darktown). It also should have changed with each act, different seasons would be nice and definitely would have been great if certain quest choices lead to different Kirkwall buildings/merchants/townspeople after time skips.

The reuse of maps will happen, and it is excusable in Origins for when it happened to most people who played the game. If they had done a better job of disguising it in DA2, it would also have been excusable here. BUT- the way Bioware implemented it in DA2 was lazy and awful and resulted in near universal criticism (find me a post on the 75+ page constructive criticsm thread that does not have "recycled maps" on it).  In particular having the grey rock doors and not blocking off the minimaps or using a few different layouts of the same textures. And yes, Fenris's mansion could have been cleaned up after the first time skip to remove the bodies on the floor and leave everything else the same.

Modifié par Kimberly Shaw, 19 avril 2011 - 04:22 .

[Chromie]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...
Kirkwall was a wasted opportunity to do something very interesting (and unique) by having the time skips. It should have been a sandbox city, without zones, running from the Docks all the way up to hightown should have been possible (with warps areas for fast travel--like the elevators we see in Darktown). It also should have changed with each act, different seasons would be nice and definitely would have been great if certain quest choices lead to different Kirkwall buildings/merchants/townspeople after time skips.

That's one of the bigger problems with DA2. It was hailed to have an amazing city that changes to our consequences yet nothing, nothing at all, ever changes.

Look here Flotsam . How the NPC's are talking to each other, a butcher cutting meat, people walking around telling Geralt to beat it or commenting about the hanging that Geralt is headed to. The town is has so much going on. It's immersive and looks amazing.

More detail in that one town then in Kirkwall sadly.