178 réponses à ce sujet

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I think it's a sense of scale between the reuse of maps in each game.

DAO it was mostly random encounters, the denerim back alleys, various outdoor zones. A few outdoors side quests, as opposed to random encounters. Playing the user made module 'Malkuth' really highlighted how they did the reused maps in DAO. The outdoor areas were one huge map blocked off into distinct areas. in Malkuth I wandered through several areas tht had been used by various random encounters in the main game.

In DA2 there were no random encounters to speak of, but there was heavy reuse of maps. Most quests, be they side quests or main/secondary, reused the same maps.

[CaolIla]

both games had minor flaws and I was not really annoyed by them, but DA2 had HUGE flaws and they constantly hit me in the face with a shovel: no story, 3 dungeons, greywall and three other areas beside that.

While playing it the first time i constantly thought: "that can't be it, surely in the next timeframe there will be new areas... there HAVE to be.".
But no, I had seen the whole game during my first two hours of gameplay.

[chart4ever]

While playing it the first time i constantly thought: "that can't be it, surely in the next timeframe there will be new areas... there HAVE to be.".
But no, I had seen the whole game during my first two hours of gameplay.

I had the exact same feeling...

[Taura-Tierno]

Even games like Baldur's Gate 2 reused maps, so that's nothing new. The difference is one of scale. BG2 and DA:O had all of their main quests, and most major side-quests, with unique areas. In DA2, most main quests shared areas, even in places where they shouldn't have (like mansions, dungeons, etc). By act 2, there were no new areas to explore, more or less, in terms of environment. That's the difference.

[chart4ever]

l.

This...

[AkiKishi]

chart4ever wrote...
This...

I love that comic, it really sums up how the reused areas drag down your enthusiasm for the game.

[vitae-vixi]

Persephone wrote...

Same thing as the party camp in DAO looking EXACTLY the same EVERYWHERE. Logic and RPGs obviously do not mix well. You can forgive one or both or none, based on what lets you "live" with DAO or DAII.

Persephone - Here's your answer to why the party camp always looks the same

It IS THE SAME PLACE.

I think you'll find that they are always returning to the same camp - when you get attacked by the Darkspawn in the party camp the NPCs end up saying "I don't think this camp is safe anymore" - implying that you've been returning to the same place; you wouldn't have had to move / this wouldn't have been an issue / even mentioned if your camp had been moving place to place.

How is this possible? - Bodahn and Sandal keep stay in the camp - it seems to be near a road  / trading point however since they are able to restock~ The Characters that you don't take with you on a quest HAVE to stay somewhere - so they must stay at camp right? It's completely plausible. We might be able to skip to and from at our leisure - BUT it is stated by the dwarf in Orzammar (who wants to study magic) that it takes ... I think 3 weeks to get to the circle to Orzammar - your party is travelling substantial distances and the camp has alot of equipment in it... and with no pack animals...

The only place this breaks down of course is places you can switch party members in and out - but that's a game mechanic that needs to be in there ><;

And of course... the camp looks very...ahh permanent?  Not to mention the crates for supplying the other armies.

So yes ~ it's plausible for the da:o party camp to be in one place and as such is isn't the crime you think it is... Not the same thing as the crimes of lazy, unchanging, repeated areas in DA2... seriously... I've been playing Morrowind recently... I'd rather play that than DA2... just for the sake of variation in landscape! (and this game came out in 2003).

Modifié par vitae-vixi, 20 avril 2011 - 10:39 .

[MorrigansLove]

Yes, the camp was the same place, Persephone.

[Killer3000ad]

The camp wasn't even a questing area, not a dungeon or cave where a quest takes place. That anybody would use it as an example of map reuse in DA:O compared to the blatant shameless recycling of the same maps for DIFFERENT QUESTS in DA2 is mind-boggling.

[vitae-vixi]

Killer3000ad wrote...

The camp wasn't even a questing area, not a dungeon or cave where a quest takes place. That anybody would use it as an example of map reuse in DA:O compared to the blatant shameless recycling of the same maps for DIFFERENT QUESTS in DA2 is mind-boggling.

^ - yup - Persephone is just clutching at straws ._.; 

[Kimberly Shaw]

I think the camp moves with the party in DAO personally, but still have zero problems with it being the same place. They could have put in some resources to use 3 camps that alternated depending on what part of the map you were near (snow near Orzammar, woods near Elf camps, rocky near Redcliffe or something) but no one complained that I could see about it when it was launched. And hey, after the darkspawn attacks the camp does get upgraded with barricades and such.

Unlike Hawke's estate...which is unchanging.

[Shamajotsi]

Although I am among the people who have enjoyed DA2 quite a lot - maybe even more than DAO - I always wonder: would it be too much to expect/ask for a "map pack" along with any of the future patches?

[Rockpopple]

Surprisingly enough, I gotta agree with Kimberly Shaw here. No way that camp is the same exact place. Are you kidding me? So when they go all the way to Orzammar and make camp, they're suddenly near Lothering where they set their very first camp?

Come on, talk about clutching at straws. You know the whole purpose of a campsite is that you can pack up and move it wherever you go right?

I'm not talking about anything else about this argument. I'm not getting involved. But clearly, clearly the Warden's crew make a different camp for each of the major areas of the game.

[appleyum]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Actually The Fade sequence is later re-used as the Templar HQ.

The sad thing is when you save in the Fade the file name will default to Templar.

[Dragoonlordz]

Rockpopple wrote...

Surprisingly enough, I gotta agree with Kimberly Shaw here. No way that camp is the same exact place. Are you kidding me? So when they go all the way to Orzammar and make camp, they're suddenly near Lothering where they set their very first camp?

Come on, talk about clutching at straws. You know the whole purpose of a campsite is that you can pack up and move it wherever you go right?

I'm not talking about anything else about this argument. I'm not getting involved. But clearly, clearly the Warden's crew make a different camp for each of the major areas of the game.

Clearly they didn't since you could see they camped at same place, which means it's up to you to rationalise with it as you want but doesn't change the fact the camp was same one that they used each time. Whether they went back and camped at same one or not according to your logic didn't change fact they did shown in game.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 20 avril 2011 - 08:41 .

[Kidd]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Archdemon bite you in the ass there, bud? Or did a desire demon leave you hanging? No need to get so tempy either way.

With all the DA references in your post, I read "tempy" as a reference to templar as an adjective =D

[AkiKishi]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Surprisingly enough, I gotta agree with Kimberly Shaw here. No way that camp is the same exact place. Are you kidding me? So when they go all the way to Orzammar and make camp, they're suddenly near Lothering where they set their very first camp?

Come on, talk about clutching at straws. You know the whole purpose of a campsite is that you can pack up and move it wherever you go right?

I'm not talking about anything else about this argument. I'm not getting involved. But clearly, clearly the Warden's crew make a different camp for each of the major areas of the game.

Clearly they didn't since you could see they camped at same place, which means it's up to you to rationalise with it as you want but doesn't change the fact the camp was same one that they used each time. Whether they went back and camped at same one or not according to your logic didn't change fact they did shown in game.

I did always wonder about that because the location of the camp on the map never changes. Without any sort of time progress you don't know whether it is just a gameplay element that lets you return to camp and back without travel.

[Supreez]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Surprisingly enough, I gotta agree with Kimberly Shaw here. No way that camp is the same exact place. Are you kidding me? So when they go all the way to Orzammar and make camp, they're suddenly near Lothering where they set their very first camp?

Come on, talk about clutching at straws. You know the whole purpose of a campsite is that you can pack up and move it wherever you go right?

I'm not talking about anything else about this argument. I'm not getting involved. But clearly, clearly the Warden's crew make a different camp for each of the major areas of the game.

Clearly they didn't since you could see they camped at same place, which means it's up to you to rationalise with it as you want but doesn't change the fact the camp was same one that they used each time. Whether they went back and camped at same one or not according to your logic didn't change fact they did shown in game.

Does the camp always look exactly the same? Yes.  
Does that mean the camp is in the same place everytime? In real life, Yes.  In a videogame, No(why would you possibly think that).  Clearly you've played games enough to know that dev time means cutting corners.  DA2 had you walking through apparrently different places that looked exactly the same.  Why do you think this wouldn't happen in DAO especially for a far more forgivable reason.

Obviously you can choose to believe that for whatever reason the party is trouncing for miles and miles just so they can pitch their tents in the same spot everytime, but considering the fact that after leaving camp you start from whatever major area you just left and not from some random campsite in the middle of the map, it would be pretty hard for a rational person to believe that and not the alternative, which is simply:  the Devs didn't find it necessary to render 7-8 unique campsites and would rather have us suspend a very small amount of disbelief because they had better things to do.

[Estelindis]

You know, it's strange, but the reuse of areas in Mass Effect 1 never annoyed me like the reuse of areas in DA2. I think it's because ME is set in a high-tech era where pre-fabs are not really beyond the pale. Also, the tendency in DA2 to block off areas with static doors but not edit the minimap appropriately led to a fair bit of wasted exploration time (running all the way across to this part of the map only to find I can't open the door leading into that part).

Anyway, thanks for posting the exact number of reused areas.

[Barefoot Warrior]

I don't think there is enough room in this forum TO list all the recycled maps is there? *sigh

Modifié par Barefoot Warrior, 21 avril 2011 - 05:26 .

[berelinde]

The up-side of extensively reused maps is that you already know where the treasure and monsters will be.

[88mphSlayer]

off the top of my head...

Kirkwall:
-Hawke's Estate
-Viscount's keep
-Viscount Throne Room*
-The Chantry
-The Blooming Rose
-Hightown
-Generic Mansion (Fenris, Bartrand, gang hideouts, etc.)
-The Mansion with Gasgard Dupris
-Lowtown
-The Hanged Man
-Generic Lowtown House (Gamlen's house, bait & switch, the saarebas, etc.)
-The Foundry
-Fereldran Refugee store
-Darktown
-The Amell family estate*
-The Docks
-Dis-used Passage (re-used many times)
-Generic Underground Passage (re-used many times)
-Private Dock (re-used many times)
-Gallows
-Gallows dock area*
-Templar HQ (re-used several times)
-The Circle interior room*

Outside Kirkwall:
-Sundermount
-Generic Cave (re-used a lot)
-Generic Ancient Ruins (re-used several times)
-Generic Ancient Cave (re-used several times)
-Wounded Coast
-Wounded Coast Mountain Passage (re-used several times)
-Wounded Coast Coastal Passage (re-used a lot)
-Wounded Coast Passage (re-used several times)
-The Bone Pit
-Crap Mountain*
-The Deep Roads (re-used several times)
-The Deep Roads Dungeon*

overall there's 35 areas, only 6 you visit just once

Estelindis wrote...

You know, it's strange, but the reuse of areas in Mass Effect 1 never annoyed me like the reuse of areas in DA2. I think it's because ME is set in a high-tech era where pre-fabs are not really beyond the pale. Also, the tendency in DA2 to block off areas with static doors but not edit the minimap appropriately led to a fair bit of wasted exploration time (running all the way across to this part of the map only to find I can't open the door leading into that part).

Anyway, thanks for posting the exact number of reused areas.

right well games like The Witcher re-used the same dungeons/caves over and over, they just edited the mini-map and placed cave ins and changed the lighting and objects placed to make each one feel different and unique

they didn't even do that for DA2, they just changed where you entered/exited and that was it for the most part, even Oblivion randomized geometry and objects at the very least - sometimes even threw in a puzzle

what Bioware should've done is learned how to make graphics modular and easy to re-arrange, what you see in DA2's caves for example is so much more complex in geometry and texture/object variety than Oblivion but that is basically a nail in the coffin if you want to make semi-unique looking areas for cheap because it means that much more work when trying to redo map geometry that you might as well start over... something they didn't seem to have time for i guess (bad planning)

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 21 avril 2011 - 10:20 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Rockpopple wrote...

Surprisingly enough, I gotta agree with Kimberly Shaw here. No way that camp is the same exact place. Are you kidding me? So when they go all the way to Orzammar and make camp, they're suddenly near Lothering where they set their very first camp?

Come on, talk about clutching at straws. You know the whole purpose of a campsite is that you can pack up and move it wherever you go right?

I'm not talking about anything else about this argument. I'm not getting involved. But clearly, clearly the Warden's crew make a different camp for each of the major areas of the game.

I agree, the camp was the same graphic, but meant to be different places.

This didn't bother me. It's not like there was any exploration involved. It was a room. The repeating Denerim alleys bothered me a bit more. It was kinda funny seeing different viewpoints of the same level in outdoors random encounters.

The difference with DA2 was that -
1. the reuse was used for every mission in an area (Sundermount, mansions etc) not just random encounters or camps
2. The decor was not changed at all. Room with bookcases in every mansion etc.
3. Thewre were fewer areas to explore that DAO to begin with. DAO had tons of unique maps for any area where something besides a random encounter was going on.

[Dragonslayr09]

Fieryeel wrote...

I know it's a pathetically low amount, and that most were re-used, but I am just wondering about the exact number of maps. I am excluding unique areas like Hawke's house, Viscount's office, Merrill's house, Chantry etc.

Off the top of my head, I can count.

Main Areas: 9 

High Town
Low Town
Dark Town
Gallows
Docks
Sundermount
Deep Roads
Wounded Coast
Bone Pit

Repeated Areas: 12

Generic Cave
Sebastian's Quest Cave (etc, used for Forbidden Knowledge)
Foundry
Docks (etc, Finder's Keepers)
Dark Town Dungeon Type 1 (etc, final part of Enemies among us)
Dark Town Dungeon Type 2 (etc, Disused Passage in Docks night)
Back Alley (etc, several of the quests to kill gang leaders at night)
Wounded Coast Retreat
Area outside cave (etc, final part of Shepharding Wolves)
"Deep Roads" dungeon (etc, final part of Forbidden Knowledge)
Hightown Mansion 1 (etc, Fenris's home)
Hightown Mansion 2 (etc, finding Gascard DePuis in Prime Suspect)

So...that's about it. Anyone else got any more maps to add to the list? And anyone kind enough to compile a list of maps for DAO or DAA?

So what'syour problem. You played them didn't you?