33 réponses à ce sujet

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

The greek epic, has been a staple of fantasy rpg for years;  powerfull evil forces do evil things, hero rises,  hero learns hero overcomes, happy ending. Now DA2 wanted to try to do something new somthing different so they switched over to tragedy. No matter how hard hawke tries all his efforts turn to ashes.  he fails to save his brother/ sister in the begining, his treasure hunt in the deep roads lead him to lose contact with the other brother/ sister. his advise leads to losing his mother. no matter what he does merrill suffers a heavy loss, even his romantic pursuits are totally futile if he pursues aveline. All of these should be realistic, emotional moments that cement  your connection to the world, but they often face problems inherent to the medium.

In films and plays tragedies are intensly moving art but in a video game there is a key difference. Many people esspecially in RPG's dont just watch the charactes, they actually play as them. that means that instead of watching a hero make heartbreaking decisions that fate throws back in his face, we end up having to make those decisions.  the first play through was frustrating but good but by the second play through if I tried to connect to any of the characters I just became depressed. there is no way to save your family  and many opf your choices are what inderectly cause the collapse. there is no way to even stop the final war. making tragic mistakes over and over is very depressing.
Basicly : watching a tragedy is amazing, living out a tragedy however is just horrible. 

I apllaude bioware for trying out a tragic storyline but in a game you want to replay many times its very emotionaly taking and ultimately frustrating to do that. in the end of the epic you actually feel good, you saved the day.

Just my 5 cents.

[Super_Fr33k]

One of your points struck me: that video games inhibit the efficacy or enjoyability of tragedy, or at least have the potential to. I suppose it applies to any story, though.

Computer games have to suppress the contradiction of accepting a persona you don't have full control over. As you point out, you can always distance yourself from bad decisions or outcomes, and resent that you can't change them. You can always say, "If I were really the person in this situation, I could have achieved a better outcome." Really going through any narrative carries this problem, since a goal of storytelling is to maximize empathy with one or more characters (and the closer you get to someone, the more you feel like you are them), but it is uniquely pronounced in video games, which are interactive stories.

I don't find the game emotionally taxing, at least not more than DAO. I believe it was Bruce Willis, of all people, who said a hero is largely defined by his ability to feel pain. A hero without vulnerability creates a story without tension or excitement. That Hawke does not, cannot, win certain situations underscore his vulnerability, and gives meaning to what modest victories he does achieve. Hawke drove out the Qunari, stopping their oppression, and he neutralized Meredith and Orsino, both of whom proved to be unstable and willing to abuse their power. There are also countless minor positive actions attributable to Hawke -- cleaning out bandits, killing evil/possessed mages, slaying dangerous monsters, etc. The ultimate value of Hawke's actions also remains indeterminate, since his story is not done, and the historical moment he participated in, and in some ways initiated, will have to play out before we can judge his true significance to Thedas.

Ultimately, what I like about DA in general is preserved in DA2: the world is too big and dysfunctional for one person to fix, but it is small enough that one person can nudge it in a better direction.

[TobiTobsen]

I agree with Six_Foot_Imp. I was rather annoyed by all the "bad luck" that Hawke has. His mother thinks it would be good to travel to the city with the biggest presence of templars, even if one of her kids is an apostate, and it goes only downhill from there.

Like I wrote it in another thread:

Meh... Hawke is getting kicked in the balls all the time. That's not really realistic if you ask me. It's just as if Hawke has one giant "kick me" sign on the back and fate is happy to oblige.

Look you have two siblings! Whups, one is dead!
Look you still have one sibling! Whups, he/she is gone/dead!
Look you still have your mother! Whups, she is dead!
Look you still have your friends! Whups, the pirate betrayed you, the mage betrayed you and some others turn on you for your decision!

I mean my life is not all sunshine and rainbows but there are always good and bad things. Hawke has only bad.

And what exactly has Hawke accomplished? Nearly every person he helps turns on him in the next act or gets killed. In the end he has to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea, just to see that everybody turns on him again and then he vanishes.
After finishing DAO, even with the US, I was satisfied and thought that my Warden had accomplished something, made the world better for other people.
After finishing DA2 I just sat there and thought: "Wow. My Hawke got screwed over for three acts, lost everything and everyone he had, was betrayed by nearly everyone, was used as an errand boy, ignited a war and then vanished. That's just depressing."
And depression is really not the only emotion I want to feel after finishing a game.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 19 avril 2011 - 09:48 .

[Foolsfolly]

I don't think this is a Greek tragedy, dude.

If it were then Hawke would have a tragic flaw that would destroy all of Hawke's efforts. And in the end Hawke would be undermined/killed/defeated/banished because of that character flaw.

Hawke has no character flaw.

Bad things just happen to Hawke, it doesn't make it a Greek Tragedy. I don't know what you'd call Hawke's story.

Unfinished comes to mind.

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I don't think this is a Greek tragedy, dude.

If it were then Hawke would have a tragic flaw that would destroy all of Hawke's efforts. And in the end Hawke would be undermined/killed/defeated/banished because of that character flaw.

Hawke has no character flaw.

Bad things just happen to Hawke, it doesn't make it a Greek Tragedy. I don't know what you'd call Hawke's story.

Unfinished comes to mind.

What was Hercules' flaw?  He's pretty much the greatest hero of ancient Greece and the only thing he had resembling a flaw was that he felt guilty his psychopath mother-in-law killed his wife and children.  And supposedly, scholars of the era say that kind of thing was pretty much how Greeks view things.  If bad stuff keeps happening because of you, you should feel like crap even if it wasn't your fault.

[Icy Magebane]

I agree with the OP. Having to sit though this crap when you know the results gets irritating sometimes. Even smaller, less personal tragedies begin to grate on me, like when you first talk to Feynriel's mother and you know that there's no happy ending to her story. It's just too much. I think Bioware got distracted by all the criticism about DA not being a "dark fantasy" and went just overboard.

Hopefully the next game won't take this route.

[Foolsfolly]

The Hercules story isn't a tragedy dude. Not all Greek stories where tragedies.

[blothulfur]

Hawke cannot embrace the Qun and gain enlightenment, a thousand virgins will weep bitter salt tears a hundred years hence to hear that the champion endured such tragedy. Woe I say.

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Hercules story isn't a tragedy dude. Not all Greek stories where tragedies.

It's not a tragedy?  How do you figure?  Hera kills the guy's family, then tricks him on a series of increasingly ridiculous quests in the vain hope that he'll earn redemption... then after he completes the series of labors that makes the Warden's journey look like a stroll through the park, he finds out there is no redemption and he kills himself.  That's not a tragedy?

[Sabriana]

I agree with the overdoing of the forced 'moar dramah'. It was simply too much. They should have let Hawke come out on top at least every once in a while. Let her be able to save at least one family member. Let her foil Anders. Something, anything would have been an improvement. Let her matter and have some kind of impact, at least here and there.

Please don't tell me that Anders was necessary to further the 'war' plot. The pot was already bubbling over, it didn't need any 'big bad Hollywood boom'. The simple attempt at an assassination of Elthina - leaving her wounded/unconscious and unable to interfere, would have given Meredith the opportunity she so clamored for since the beginning of act III (per Orsino).

[Foolsfolly]

For one, Herc is mythology which is very different than plays. The gods and all their various offspring would often fight, die, have revenge, marry, etc. etc. It's like one giant soap opera that never ended.

[Sabriana]

Herkules also didn't commit suicide. His wife Deianeira killed him - inadvertently. She listened to bad dude and was tricked. Bloody tragedy, that. But not 'a' tragedy genre-wise. Soap opera at its finest indeed.

[Fast Jimmy]

Bad stuff happens to Vince Vaughn in Wedding Crashers. That, in no way, makes it a tragedy.

HERE are a list of Greek tragedies:

Ajax, Antigon, Electra, Oedipus the King or Philoctetes

Please read them (or at least scan wikipedia for plot points) before saying Hercules is a tragedy. Sophocles would be rolling in his grave right now...

[Curlain]

Sadly if the story is aiming to bring in tragedy more it needed to make you feel connected to Hawke and Hawke's family. Sadly for me, Hawke's constant acting off some pre-defined characterisation rather then the initial image I had created for my Hawke led to an immediate disconnect with the character, linked with bring thrown in with a family without any time much either at the beginning (or really later in the game) to establish and feel the relationship between Hawke and family (the lack of interaction and conversation possibly really hurt the family element).

This all led to me never really feeling much for Hawke or what happened to his family, when Leandra died, I just felt 'well that's sad', rather then say what I felt with a human noble Warden when when the family was killed, or Dalish Elf when Tamlan died, there it felt very personal, in DA2 it felt distant. And (for me of course) with the limited interaction, it didn't even have the impact that films, tv shows and books that feature deaths in the family and tragic separations tend to have

[Wulfram]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I don't think this is a Greek tragedy, dude.

If it were then Hawke would have a tragic flaw that would destroy all of Hawke's efforts. And in the end Hawke would be undermined/killed/defeated/banished because of that character flaw.

Hawke has no character flaw.
.

Depends on the Hawke.  My first Hawke was brought down by excessive trust in her companions, which resulted in her supporting her lover in the course which ended in the destruction of her clan, and inadvertently helping Anders destroy the chantry and thus the peace she was working for.

[highcastle]

If you're going to discuss Greek tragedy, you need to note most of them end in a death. Same with Shakespearean tragedies. That's the traditional format of the genre. That being said, I agree DA2 has tragic elements and that you don't really "win" at the end. But I disagree that a game needs to follow the traditional epic format. Games are art. They can make you feel a wide array of emotions. If you don't like dark, depressing games, don't play them. It's the same as films. I don't like sappy romantic comedies or mindless action films. I don't watch them.

As for Hawke not having a character flaw, it depends on how you play him. My Hawke was over confidant in everything, and that undid him a couple of times. He thought he'd save his mother. Wrong. He thought he'd unite Kirkwall behind him as viscount. Wrong. He thought he'd save Anders from himself. Very, very, very wrong.

[Rylor Tormtor]

Rifneno wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Hercules story isn't a tragedy dude. Not all Greek stories where tragedies.

It's not a tragedy?  How do you figure?  Hera kills the guy's family, then tricks him on a series of increasingly ridiculous quests in the vain hope that he'll earn redemption... then after he completes the series of labors that makes the Warden's journey look like a stroll through the park, he finds out there is no redemption and he kills himself.  That's not a tragedy?

Herakles is part of a mythic cycle. There are tragic elements in the cycle, but the cycle itself is mythic. There is a Tragedy, written by Euripides, Hercules Furens* that reframes some the events into a tragic drama. In addition, we have the titles of a number of plays that dramatized the events of Heracles' mythic cycle, but these are reworkings, in the same way the Adventures of Hercules was a reworking

Terminology is a problem here. Tragedy, in it the sense of a genre, requires a particular type of interiority (this is a problematic term, since one could argue that there is no inner life for a Greek until Hellenistic period, but as a descriptive it works in this case) for the character, a change or revelation, a reconginition of the greater univerise at work.** Heracles has no interiority at all, he is a Greek hero in every sense of the word, a completely exterior focused larger than life semi divine figure whose primary concern is the collection and preservation of kleos.

EDIT - In addition, in order for Hawke to have a character, he would have had to have a character.

ZING!
*Greek Tragedies are traditionally referred to with Latin titles, since while we accept that not everyone can know Ancient Greek, we are not dirty barbarians and we all know Latin.
**This of course is an extremely simplistic definition, but again, as a convenient note of the boards, it serves its purposes. There are of course a ton of formal elements that are necessary for something to be a Tragedy.

Modifié par Rylor Tormtor, 19 avril 2011 - 02:22 .

[Annarl]

SIx_Foot_Imp wrote...

The greek epic, has been a staple of fantasy rpg for years;  powerfull evil forces do evil things, hero rises,  hero learns hero overcomes, happy ending. Now DA2 wanted to try to do something new somthing different so they switched over to tragedy. No matter how hard hawke tries all his efforts turn to ashes.  he fails to save his brother/ sister in the begining, his treasure hunt in the deep roads lead him to lose contact with the other brother/ sister. his advise leads to losing his mother. no matter what he does merrill suffers a heavy loss, even his romantic pursuits are totally futile if he pursues aveline. All of these should be realistic, emotional moments that cement  your connection to the world, but they often face problems inherent to the medium.

In films and plays tragedies are intensly moving art but in a video game there is a key difference. Many people esspecially in RPG's dont just watch the charactes, they actually play as them. that means that instead of watching a hero make heartbreaking decisions that fate throws back in his face, we end up having to make those decisions.  the first play through was frustrating but good but by the second play through if I tried to connect to any of the characters I just became depressed. there is no way to save your family  and many opf your choices are what inderectly cause the collapse. there is no way to even stop the final war. making tragic mistakes over and over is very depressing.
Basicly : watching a tragedy is amazing, living out a tragedy however is just horrible. 

I apllaude bioware for trying out a tragic storyline but in a game you want to replay many times its very emotionaly taking and ultimately frustrating to do that. in the end of the epic you actually feel good, you saved the day.

Just my 5 cents.

I agreed with a lot of what you posted.  The game becomes (to me) a mockery of an epic greek tale.  Mostly because every thing it seems Hawke does ends badly.  It gets depressing and old fast.  Hawke to some degree should have some better choices.  It leaves me feeling... why bother?  I never got the feeling Hwake was the most important person in Thedas.  Heck, I didn't think he or she was the most important person in Kirkwall.  

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

Thanks for all the responses, I agree that the plot doesn't fully follow the ancient greek tragedy( also has element of more modern versions of tragedy), and as the last time I really researched greek tragedies was grade 12 lit I couldn't analyze every part of it. I think Hawke could have many tragic faults but to me his deal with Flemeth was what really set him on the path to destruction, he made a deal with the devil, a devil who basically prophesied that he would bring chaos/ change to the world. a little like Macbeth's witches Flemeth leads the hero to the path where he will do the most damage. every time the hero tries to help he inadvertently causes disaster. while not everyone dies at the end like most tragedies you see most of the main NPC's dead and the hero "disappears" at the end to a fate unknown. My Hawke was a completely broken man by the end. the family he tried to protect is gone, the stature he built in the city has crumpled, each of his friends have suffered their own tragedies (possibly excluding Aveline). To wrap it all up though his one biggest choice; his attempt to save mages lives or protect the peace has totally failed and started a brutal civil war. while he may not have died his spirit was crushed.
I don't think the story will fit neatly into any type of play, but then again it isn't a play.

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

Damn double post.<_<

Modifié par SIx_Foot_Imp, 19 avril 2011 - 06:02 .

[Patriciachr34]

Super_Fr33k wrote...

One of your points struck me: that video games inhibit the efficacy or enjoyability of tragedy, or at least have the potential to. I suppose it applies to any story, though.

Computer games have to suppress the contradiction of accepting a persona you don't have full control over. As you point out, you can always distance yourself from bad decisions or outcomes, and resent that you can't change them. You can always say, "If I were really the person in this situation, I could have achieved a better outcome." Really going through any narrative carries this problem, since a goal of storytelling is to maximize empathy with one or more characters (and the closer you get to someone, the more you feel like you are them), but it is uniquely pronounced in video games, which are interactive stories.

I don't find the game emotionally taxing, at least not more than DAO. I believe it was Bruce Willis, of all people, who said a hero is largely defined by his ability to feel pain. A hero without vulnerability creates a story without tension or excitement. That Hawke does not, cannot, win certain situations underscore his vulnerability, and gives meaning to what modest victories he does achieve. Hawke drove out the Qunari, stopping their oppression, and he neutralized Meredith and Orsino, both of whom proved to be unstable and willing to abuse their power. There are also countless minor positive actions attributable to Hawke -- cleaning out bandits, killing evil/possessed mages, slaying dangerous monsters, etc. The ultimate value of Hawke's actions also remains indeterminate, since his story is not done, and the historical moment he participated in, and in some ways initiated, will have to play out before we can judge his true significance to Thedas.

Ultimately, what I like about DA in general is preserved in DA2: the world is too big and dysfunctional for one person to fix, but it is small enough that one person can nudge it in a better direction.

Well said.  I agree with you on this.

[zeejay21]

This is why I said in a feedback that DA2 is a different, refreshing RPG. It strays away from the norm of hero-beats-evil concept, instead it becomes complex as it goes.

It's kinda like Fallout 3. I think it's a trend.

Or not.

Modifié par zeejay21, 19 avril 2011 - 09:03 .

[Kilshrek]

Sabriana wrote...

Please don't tell me that Anders was necessary to further the 'war' plot. The pot was already bubbling over, it didn't need any 'big bad Hollywood boom'.

I sensed the fell hand of Michael Bay in this aspect.

[Big I]

zeejay21 wrote...

This is why I said in a feedback that DA2 is a different, refreshing RPG. It strays away from the norm of hero-beats-evil concept, instead it becomes complex as it goes.

It's kinda like Fallout 3. I think it's a trend.

Or not.

The Fallout 3 main plot offers you a binary choice, save the wasteland or doom it. In that way it strays from "hero-beats-evil", but if you mean the "good" choice I disagree, it's all about the Lone Wanderer becoming uber and saving the day.


As for DA2, I've no problem with not having a "villanous" antagonist, one who's evil for the hell of it. My problem is that the end of the game railroads you into a no-win scenario after spending most of the story telling you how amazing and important Hawke is. Furthermore both mages and templars are portrayed so negatively as to be completely unsympathetic. Instead of playing out the  "public safety vs personal freedom" argument through templars and mages we're shown that most templars are abusive thugs, most mages are crazy monsters, and the only reasonable members of either group conspire against you.

[Suron]

lol the only "tragedy" about Hawke is that he's a walking tree trunk.  He's a dimwit that's only "influence" on anything is to kill things.