99 réponses à ce sujet

[Bozorgmehr]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Cooldowns should be much lower for casters in any event.

The Adept is not gimped but if you look at Boz's videos a lot of his effectiveness stems from the Mattock or the GPS; his powers should be more effective than the weapons.

I'm with Waltzing Bear on this one  I think cooldowns are fine although I don't like the 12 second cd powers (that's way too long). Adepts can use Pull & Throw every 1.5-2 seconds, Singularity every 2.5-3 seconds and Warp every 3.5-4 seconds (with cooldown reduction bonuses). Faster cooldowns would allow constant casting which should not be possible imo.

Mass Effect is a shooter/rpg hybrid - all Shep's are soldiers and all Shep's know how to use weapons. Powers are meant to assist the shooting (or vice versa) not replace them.

[Alamar2078]

While I like ME2 gameplay [I played like it was virtual crack for well over a year] I would like the game & power balancing to make sense with the established lore.

I wonder if it simply wasn't easy to come up with powers that felt right for the Soldier that we still 'balanced"???

[Alamar2078]

I tend to agree with Boz in that powers are intended to compliment or augment shooting and not totally replace shooting.

As for the Adept I don't think that the answer is a super low cooldown anyway ... With all the reductions you can SPAM effectively anyway. What I think should happen is that Biotics should be somewhat more effective against troops with protections in place.

I see Biotic Barriers and Shields being fairly effective against many Biotic effects. However things like "Armor" shouldn't have equivalent protection when going against a lift / pull / etc. I could see some shield or barrier acting against a Biotic power so it doesn't have anything to 'grab on to". However I don't see Armor being effective in this manner -- you should at least get more than just a "slight stumble".

Then again I think all targets should have Shields & Armor & Health [at varying levels] at the minimum so YMMV

[AK404]

Personally, I believe that the use of ammo powers in ME2 stemmed somewhat from the inventory mess that ammo mods caused in ME1: there was something like 10 levels of ammo mods in ME1, and not all of them were useful, but all of them used up valuable inventory slots that resulted in a painful experience during inventory management.

Thus, in ME2, Bioware went the other way entirely, taking out the inventory system entirely. What I would like to see in ME3 is a hybrid of the two, where you can use ammo mods with only one level (percentage-based damage) that can be switched in and out at any given time, but ammo-based powers can be used to enhance those mods in different ways.

For example, you can have one power for spreading the effects to multiple squad members - a quarter of the effect for the first level, half the effect for the next, then add on a weaker version of its additional effect for the third, then full-powered ammo for the last - with a neat side effect being squad members with squad ammo powers can combine effects. Say you have Garrus, Shepard, and Jacob equipped with Squad AP, Disruptor, and Incendiary ammo mods with fully-developed squad ammo powers: one squad member would be able to have disruptor, AP, and incendiary effects coming from the same weapon.

Another ammo power would be to strengthen the effects of the mods, much in the same way as the 'heavy' versions of ammo powers worked. These would be completely separate from squad ammo powers, but their effects would be cumulative with squad ammo powers. Thus, a character with a level 4 heavy and squad ammo power would be spreading the level 4 heavy version of his ammo power to every member of his squad. The cost, of course, is 20 squad points. However, there's no guarantee that a squad member would have both heavy and squad ammo powers: for gameplay purposes, heavy-hitters like Zaeed and Thane would have exclusively heavy ammo powers while 'support' characters like Miranda and Tali would have squad ammo powers, with 'special' characters like Shepard having both.

However, I feel somewhat adamant that cryo ammo should be exclusive to Shepard...no idea why, but I've always felt that cryo ammo is potentially the most powerful ammo in the game. Maybe his ammo powers should have an 'add cryo effect' on it, just to make sure players invest in it instead of making squadmates shoulder that particular burden.

[Alamar2078]

I'm not sure if I like "squad ammo" as a power or effect per-se. I think it would be useful to have something in the interface where you could tell you whole team to switch to a specific ammo power though ... this should simulate "squad ammo" well enough IMHO.

Really you could design a system for "ammo power mods" but I think there should be a system in place to mod more than just that. Things like ROF, clip capacity, impact of each shot, etc. should be controllable to certain extents with mods. A comprehensize mod system that included ammo would be good as long as work was done to avoid inventory clutter.

IMHO you could do without inventory per-se. If you find / research / buy / etc. XYZ mod then when you go to the weapon mod screen on ship then you can see what you have to choose from, what the effects are, tradeoffs, etc.

[Malanek]

I thought ammo was much better in ME2 than ME1 from a gameplay perspective. Much more interesting chracter building and teammate selection. Plus with gloabl cooldowns implemented more passives were needed. No it doesn't make sense from a story perspective.

As for guns, again for gameplay purposes I don't think Adept, Engineer and Sentinels should be as heavily armed. I don't like the idea of them carrying around a Mattock and Geth Shotgun at the start of the game. There are other ways of achieving this, as someone else mentioned giving every weapon a size and each class a carrying capacity might work. Note in ME1 you still had this restriction but in a more stupid manner. Shepard carried around all the weapons and could technically use them but when unskilled was so terribly innefficient it was pointless to do so. You wondered why they were on his back.

[Arbalest7]

I just want them to fix the ammo powers, they should reflect total weapon damage not base.

[Praetor Knight]

There was an idea that I was mulling about, similar to other suggestions I've read, and I wanted to throw up for discussion here.

I figure, since we will be able to pick our weapons with a certain number of available slots, why not also be able pick out our favored ammo powers in a similar fashion?

So if ME2's template of powers is kept, then the Soldier should be able to swap between the greatest number of ammo powers (maybe three), with the Infiltrator and Vanguard coming in second (with two each).


The Soldier class at least, really does not need more powers, even with AR potentially being rebalanced/ tweaked, so it seems like treating ammo powers like weapons could work in ME3.

[Tony Gunslinger]

I'm for ammo mods if they are going to use the plus-minus method to equalize them. For instance, inferno ammo deals extra damage to armor but -15%-20% shields, cryo ammo deals 20% less overall damage, etc. Without that, it could make certain classes OP. If you can add the current cryo ammo on an ME2 Sentinel, who happens to have every defense-stripping powers available, it'll be a joke.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 19 avril 2011 - 10:40 .

[Alamar2078]

BTW: Am I the only person that misses "Phasic" [sp?] ammo that did a lot less damage overall but ignored protections. Phasic, Hammerhead, and High Explosive Ammo I really miss

[Malanek]

Alamar2078 wrote...

BTW: Am I the only person that misses "Phasic" [sp?] ammo that did a lot less damage overall but ignored protections.

Didn't they partly ignore shields only? I never saw the point of them, I thought mathematically they were simply bad?

Just checked the wiki and it says they go up to 30% shield bypass and -30% damage. Seriously, what is the point of this?

Edit Proton rounds go up to 55% shield bypass and -20% damage. Still not good enough. This is what lvl 1 should start out like.

Modifié par Malanek999, 19 avril 2011 - 11:34 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Waltzingbear wrote...

This is obviously a decision made from a gameplay balancing point of view. If every class could use every ammo type a Soldier for example would be even less unique than it is now.

I would much prefer to have gameplay refining at the expense of logic (considering it's not completely ridiculous).

Sure, but a lot of it is random; Infiltrators can use Incinerate but not Incendiary? What was the motive for this decision?

this is a big reason why i somewhat preffer a classless system. theres absolutely no reason why an infiltrator HAS to be a cloaking, incinerating sniper, other then the fact that biowares FORCES us to play an infiltrator that way. i hate being an adept that only uses pull, throw, and shockwave. adept classes should be setup with ALL the biotics available to an adept. dont give me a predefined class in ME3. atleast give me freedom to choose how i create MY adept. i dont want biowares "adept." because biowares adept ****ing blows.

i see zero reasons why i want to invest more then one point into ME2s abilities as is. ill use basic throw just as id use heavy throw anyways. man i hate ME2.

[AK404]

Malanek999 wrote...

Just checked the wiki and it says they go up to 30% shield bypass and -30% damage. Seriously, what is the point of this?

Edit Proton rounds go up to 55% shield bypass and -20% damage. Still not good enough. This is what lvl 1 should start out like.

For geth and synthetic foes with heavy shielding and light HP.  In insanity, you'd have to chew through five layers of shielding to get to one bar of life, so while proton rounds did suffer damage reduction to actual HP, it is doing actual damage to HP.

@ Troll.  I'm somewhat inclined to agree: I don't like that adepts can't pick which biotics they can use, nor do I like that engineers don't get access to disruptor ammo, but I can see the reasoning behind the class/military specialization function in ME.  For example, the Incineration tech for Infiltrators comes in handy in the event that the Infiltrator runs completely out of ammo (yes, I know it shouldn't happen, but for some people {not me} it does). 

Modifié par AK404, 20 avril 2011 - 01:28 .

[The Spamming Troll]

AK404 wrote...

@ Troll.  I'm somewhat inclined to agree: I don't like that adepts can't pick which biotics they can use, nor do I like that engineers don't get access to disruptor ammo, but I can see the reasoning behind the class/military specialization function in ME.  For example, the Incineration tech for Infiltrators comes in handy in the event that the Infiltrator runs completely out of ammo (yes, I know it shouldn't happen, but for some people {not me} it does). 

why does the infiltrator HAVE to use incinerate tho? why not cryo blast, or the most obviouse, sabotage. im using incinerate as an infiltrator, not becaue i like the ability, its because im stuck with it. the ONLY reason im using those abilities is becasue bioware forced me to play my infiltrator with incinerate, and not sabotage.

why did the sentinel get throw and warp comboed together? anyone with a brain would do pull with warp. but nope, the vangaurd already has pull so the sentinel cant.

to me thats an extremely lame attempt at creating class variety.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 20 avril 2011 - 01:44 .

[AK404]

I think the reason is the CC option: it looks like every class gets one cryo-based option, as two would be superfluous. Again, I'm inclined to agree, but I'm not going to hate ME2 because of it.

It's like that fire extinguisher in the beginning sequence of ME2. You don't ask why Shepard picks up a fire extinguisher to pass it to the LI, who then passes it back to Shepard, who then blasts one fire out of many, then throws it away...you just kind of go along with the ride.

[JayhartRIC]

Bioware wanted the adept to be the only biotic class who could do warp combos by themselves. If Sentinel had warp and pull they would be unbalanced.

[jasonsantanna]

Why not let each class use any ammo power like in ME1 but let the soldier gain bonus on his/her ammo power under AR or under the passive power, similar to tech or biotic power bonuses or upgrades

[The Spamming Troll]

AK404 wrote...

I think the reason is the CC option: it looks like every class gets one cryo-based option, as two would be superfluous. Again, I'm inclined to agree, but I'm not going to hate ME2 because of it.

It's like that fire extinguisher in the beginning sequence of ME2. You don't ask why Shepard picks up a fire extinguisher to pass it to the LI, who then passes it back to Shepard, who then blasts one fire out of many, then throws it away...you just kind of go along with the ride.

ME2 has alot of boner moves like that. you ever wonder why it costs fuel to fly around a holographic normandy?

JayhartRIC wrote...

Bioware wanted the adept to be the
only biotic class who could do warp combos by themselves. If Sentinel
had warp and pull they would be unbalanced.

define "balance" in a single player game.

who cares about setting up your own warp bombs??????? is that what the adept has to offer? creating their own warp bombs?!?!? im not playing an adept to setup warp bombs. im playing to be a supreme CCer. my main disapointment with adepts lies within enemy protections. hate isnt a strong enough word for my feelings about enemy protections. insanity totally craps on an adepts potential, making an adept nothing more then a singularity/warp spammer(please dont try to convince me using heavy throw on a protected enemy is worth a darn). even more so, any class in this game can create warp bombs, its not a defining atribute to an adept. if liara was available throught the entire game, there would be absolutely no reason to play an adept. not ot mention putting stasis on any freakin class makes that class essentially an effective so called "adept."

long story short, if a sentinel had warp and pull, it would simply make sense.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 20 avril 2011 - 03:44 .

[Kileyan]

jamesp81 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

*another example is that Adept/Engineer/Sentinel are stuck with measly SMG until DCS..which makes no sense, considering Shepard is N7 Marine. They changed that in ME3, I like that.

Is it? Do Marine pilots or tank crew carry assault rifles or do they stick with sufficiently compact guns to allow them to get the job done - isn't that the whole point of carbines and the personal defence weapon idea?

"Every Marine is a rifleman" is not something they came up with for Ash to say in ME1 to sound cool.  That's a real doctrine exercised today by the US Marine Corps.  EVERY Marine is required to qualify as a rifleman regardless of his specific job, whether that's infantry or not.  Pilots, truck drivers, tank crews, artillerymen, cooks, doctors, nurses, mechanics, EVERYONE in the Marines qualifies with a service rifle, from the Commandant himself on down to the lowly private.  Some may not carry a rifle daily due to their jobs, but they are all trained to use one.

Yes, ME2 has is backwards in many ways.

That saying isn't just to say that Marines are hardcore. There is a reason everyone is trained with a rifle, they are very easy to use effectively and they are the best weapon for almost every occasion. There is no reason any military would withold training with a rifle, just because they soldiers job was communications, medic or using magical powers:) Hell, I could take a soccer mom who had never fire a gun in her life, and have her hitting pie plates at 200 yards within a days training with a rifle(and sandbag).

Smaller, lighter, short sight length weapons are much harder to use, and actually take more training. SMG's and pistols are actually only used as a chosen weapon by special niche groups like hostage rescue and close quarters combat specialists(in ME that would be soldiers or infiltrators).

As for guns in general, I kinda hope they remove pistols completely, they have no place IMHO, although all the trendy cover shooters seem to think their place is low ammo hand cannons that are more powerful than any assault rifle shot for shot.

As for ammo powers, I hope they are removed in ME3 and put back into the weapon modications column.

[RGFrog]

jamesp81 wrote...

"Every Marine is a rifleman" is not something they came up with for Ash to say in ME1 to sound cool.  That's a real doctrine exercised today by the US Marine Corps.  EVERY Marine is required to qualify as a rifleman regardless of his specific job, whether that's infantry or not.  Pilots, truck drivers, tank crews, artillerymen, cooks, doctors, nurses, mechanics, EVERYONE in the Marines qualifies with a service rifle, from the Commandant himself on down to the lowly private.  Some may not carry a rifle daily due to their jobs, but they are all trained to use one.

True, but as you pointed out, not every marine carries a rilfe. Marine pilots would be insane to have much more than a pistol or smg.

Just like an adept, which in the me universe, has to concentrate and use physical motions to initiate biotics would be insane to try and do all that with a ton of kit on its back. A biotic has to run relatively light or sacrifce energy, motion, and concentration to carry a kit. Those resources would/could/should be better used on the craft of using biotics.

If a pistol, smg, or shotgun does the job of stripping defenses so the adept can use the biotics then there's really no reason to also cary an AR, a sniper rifle and a heavy weapon, is there?

Unless the class is a combo class where the biotics support weapon usage (eg, Vanguard), then weapons should only play a secondary support role.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Waltzingbear wrote...

Those are valid points as well. That's why balancing results in an equilibrium.

PS.
I like our whole time-gap letter relationship; are you on Neptune?

Haha, no i'm on the moon and watching for the reapers arrival (we can continue our arguing later).

[JayhartRIC]

double post

Modifié par JayhartRIC, 20 avril 2011 - 02:26 .

[JayhartRIC]

JayhartRIC wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

AK404 wrote...

I think the reason is the CC option: it looks like every class gets one cryo-based option, as two would be superfluous. Again, I'm inclined to agree, but I'm not going to hate ME2 because of it.

It's like that fire extinguisher in the beginning sequence of ME2. You don't ask why Shepard picks up a fire extinguisher to pass it to the LI, who then passes it back to Shepard, who then blasts one fire out of many, then throws it away...you just kind of go along with the ride.

ME2 has alot of boner moves like that. you ever wonder why it costs fuel to fly around a holographic normandy?

JayhartRIC wrote...

Bioware wanted the adept to be the
only biotic class who could do warp combos by themselves. If Sentinel
had warp and pull they would be unbalanced.

define "balance" in a single player game.

who cares about setting up your own warp bombs??????? is that what the adept has to offer? creating their own warp bombs?!?!? im not playing an adept to setup warp bombs. im playing to be a supreme CCer. my main disapointment with adepts lies within enemy protections. hate isnt a strong enough word for my feelings about enemy protections. insanity totally craps on an adepts potential, making an adept nothing more then a singularity/warp spammer(please dont try to convince me using heavy throw on a protected enemy is worth a darn). even more so, any class in this game can create warp bombs, its not a defining atribute to an adept. if liara was available throught the entire game, there would be absolutely no reason to play an adept. not ot mention putting stasis on any freakin class makes that class essentially an effective so called "adept."

long story short, if a sentinel had warp and pull, it would simply make sense.

"Unbalanced" meaning there would be no point to playing an adept.  Sentinel would have the best adept powers, plus Tech Armor.  Being able to set up warp combos means you don't necessarily need another biotic squadmate.  If you don't like the protections, just play on Veteran.  Insane is supposed to be harder.

[naledgeborn]

Ammo Powers is Tech Powers for weapons
Disruptor Ammo is Overload
Incendiary Ammo is Incinerate
Cryo Ammo is Cryo Blast

Want "proof"? Compare the Infiltrators Power setup against the Engineer. If you remove Cloak and Drone they're pretty much the same. The devs decided to do this for class balance. I may not agree with it and I see eye to eye with Stardusk but I also understand why the devs did it. Hopefully Ammo Powers stay as a Passive talent where you can upgrade it if you want but it doesn't ruin your overall build. As for different variations of "Ammo Powers", make them puchasable and their effectivness is dependant on how many points you put in the Passive.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 20 avril 2011 - 02:57 .

[The Spamming Troll]

RGFrog wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

"Every Marine is a rifleman" is not something they came up with for Ash to say in ME1 to sound cool.  That's a real doctrine exercised today by the US Marine Corps.  EVERY Marine is required to qualify as a rifleman regardless of his specific job, whether that's infantry or not.  Pilots, truck drivers, tank crews, artillerymen, cooks, doctors, nurses, mechanics, EVERYONE in the Marines qualifies with a service rifle, from the Commandant himself on down to the lowly private.  Some may not carry a rifle daily due to their jobs, but they are all trained to use one.

True, but as you pointed out, not every marine carries a rilfe. Marine pilots would be insane to have much more than a pistol or smg.

Just like an adept, which in the me universe, has to concentrate and use physical motions to initiate biotics would be insane to try and do all that with a ton of kit on its back. A biotic has to run relatively light or sacrifce energy, motion, and concentration to carry a kit. Those resources would/could/should be better used on the craft of using biotics.

If a pistol, smg, or shotgun does the job of stripping defenses so the adept can use the biotics then there's really no reason to also cary an AR, a sniper rifle and a heavy weapon, is there?

Unless the class is a combo class where the biotics support weapon usage (eg, Vanguard), then weapons should only play a secondary support role.

your confusing the current adept, with an unstopable biotic wrecking ball the adept should be. once i see an enemy protection as an adept, im stuck using ONLY my pistol. theres no such thing as carrying less amounts of weapons in order to use my biotics better. your making up what an adept is, when its clearly nothing like that.

the adept is only as strong as its best weapon, a pistol. adepts are pathetic, laughable soldiers.