45 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarethus]

While I dislike the game for a variety of reasons most of which have been listed on this board, this issue has not really been touched on as far as I know so I thought I'd ask how you all would feel about the ending:

If Merideth did not have the Idol or at least it wasn't driving her crazy?

If Orisino had not aided in the murder of Hawke's mother and did not turn into an abomination? 

The main difference with the above scenario is that it would result in a pure mages versus templar issue. No excuses such as that bit** was insane so I had to kill her or that knife-ear became a monster of human corpses so I had to kill him.

I feel the above would have had a stronger impact on the plot.
 

[Rifneno]

I prefer it this way.  Less of a delusion that it was possible for things to end in sunshine and rainbows from using a high coercion skill.  I mean it's still there somewhat, a few people think the whole thing could've been solved by a chat over tea, but for the most part it's recognized that Kirkwall was a powder keg waiting to blow.

Not to say I prefer the lolacaust that is the entire final mission.  Orsino turning Harvester for no good reason if you're on the mage side, Meredith's dragoon jumps and statue minions, pretty much anything involving Anders... all terribad.  But I don't think things would have been better if everyone was sane and lawful-good.

Edit:  Me no type so gud.

Modifié par Rifneno, 19 avril 2011 - 10:54 .

[Sarethus]

Rifneno wrote...

I prefer it this way.  Less of a delusion that it was possible for things to end in sunshine and rainbows from using a high coercion skill.  I mean it's still there somewhat, a few people think the whole thing could've been solved by a chat over tea, but for the most part it's recognized that Kirkwall was a powder keg waiting to blow.

Not to say I prefer the lolacaust that is the entire final mission.  Orsino turning Harvester for no good reason if you're on the mage side, Meredith's dragoon jumps and statue minions, pretty much anything involving Anders... all terribad.  But I don't think things would have been better if everyone was sane and lawful-good.

Edit:  Me no type so gud.

While I agree that too many people feel that a happy ending could have happened in Act 3, I have two issues with your post:

One I feel that Bioware took a cheap way out. Merideth could simply have been an extremist fanatic. Orisino could very well have simply been a very desperate man who used a powerful spell to turn the Gallows into a bomb to kill all the templars (with Hawke having to stop him) while allowing a few of his mages to escape. If your going to bring the conflict down to a human level then keep it there.

My second problem with your sentiment in the above post is that Bioware for the most part wrote themselves into that corner when they brought the game down to a less world threatening and more local story.

In a few of my previous threads (Here and Here) I noted that Bioware had brought the game down to a human level then DAO with Arch-Demons etc but this had a story line cost in that there should have been more human level solutions: Assasination, appealing to Lelianna to tell the Divine to call of Merideth, Helping Trask in his rebellion, stirring up the citizenary or nobles for either side. 

Now we couldn't expect all of them to be in game but a few of them could have been and their failure could have led to the final battle. Assination could have failed, the Divine tells Merideth to calm down but doesn't recall her etc...

The main thing is: Human Level Problems should allow the oppertunity but not necessarily success of Human Level Solutions.

[Foolsfolly]

Of course it would have been better.

[TheBlackBaron]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Of course it would have been better.

[AlexXIV]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Of course it would have been better.

[Fast Jimmy]

I would have liked it better if the Band of Three notes that explain why mages are crazier than usual in Kirkwall would have been used to explain Orsino's madness. And that the whole cool concept of what the Bo3 talked about was used more with the main plot, with an Act 4 that tied it all together with them exploring the depths of Kirkwall to discover the dangerous secret.

That's what this guy thinks.

[kyles3]

Meredith and Orsino were introduced and developed very poorly, but I think they both end up being pretty irrelevant in the end anyway. To me, Anders is clearly the big bad of Act Three and is a far more interesting antagonist than either the crazy mage or the crazy templar.

Modifié par kyles3, 19 avril 2011 - 11:41 .

[AlexXIV]

kyles3 wrote...

Meredith and Orsino were introduced and developed very poorly, but I think they both end up being pretty irrelevant in the end anyway. To me, Anders is clearly the big bad of Act Three and is a far more interesting antagonist than either the crazy mage or the crazy templar.

Well that's not entirely right. Anders does not force the conflict alone. It is a more or less incapable First Enchanter and Knight Commander who create the situation Anders abuses to begin with. Also KC Meredith decides the Right of Annullment. It is not forced on her. It is what she wants to do. Anders blows up the Chantry, but the only real consequence is that the Chantry is blown up and the Grand Cleric and many innocents are dead. It doesn't make the Right of Annullment an unavoidable choice though unless the KC insists on it and the rest of the templars (i.e. Cullen) don't prevent it either. So basically the important people are Anders and Orsino on the mage side and Meredith and Cullen on the templar side. Not to mention Elthina. Each of them could probably have prevented the conflict at some point. The only one who couldn't do anything, try as he/she might, was Hawke.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 avril 2011 - 11:55 .

[Curlain]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Of course it would have been better.

[GeorgeZip]

The battle with Meredith was insane in a good way the first play thru. I'd prefer to have had two other alternate epic final battles and get rid of the orsino fight.

If you side with orsino the end battle would stay as is. Meredith could kill orsino in a cutscene before the fight with her starts.

If you sided with Meredith the final battle would be against orsino and make it as epic but different than the Meredith battle. Orsino could kill Meredith in a cutscene prior to the battle so you face orsino without her.

If you chose to be neutral, you'd be in the middle of orsino and Meredith as they fought each other and YOU. That would be a wild fight.

[Clangeddin86]

The problem is not their "insanity" per se, the problem is that their insanity is totally sudden, not developed over time due to (valid?) reasons, and that your actions have no effect on such insanity at all.

It's just there, and it comes out of nowhere for the last (small) part of the game, that's the problem.

Modifié par Clangeddin86, 19 avril 2011 - 01:02 .

[ajm317]

Meridith's insanity was probably unnecessary, from a plot standpoint, but I really don't see how the story works if Orsino is just the reasonable nice guy he seems to be at first.

If Orsino is really innocent, then the annulment lacks justification, and further more the institution of the circle itself seems unnecessary. This was the problem with DAO. Despite the fact that the Circle in Ferelden was thoroughly over run by blood mages and nearly destroyed by abominations the vast majority of people left the game thinking that the Templars were Thedas's equivalent of the Gestapo.

The entire point of DA2 is the interesting question of the circle institution. On the one hand it is undeniable that innocent mages suffer, on the other it is undeniable that mages are dangerous. Unfortunately it is difficult to make the player fully consider the 2nd point. It seems western audiences a predisposed to hold justice over security. The only way, it seems, to drive the point home is to show the players the Templars nightmare scenario.

On the other hand, the story also doesn't work as well if Orsino is just shown as evil from the beginning. If that were the case then most would simply side with the Templars, which is also not what the writers want. In addition, part of the point of the Templars is that even if a mage seems innocent, they are still dangerous. If it were easy to tell good mages from bad then the Circle wouldn't be needed. The only way to demonstrate that point is to show us a mage who seems innocent, but is not.

Modifié par ajm317, 19 avril 2011 - 04:26 .

[srieser]

I have no problem with the idol. It actually ties Hawke to her downfall in that he/she helped drag it out of the deep roads to begin with. I also don't think the idol really changed Meredith's thinking or methods. It just amped it up to 11.

I think the connection between Quinten and Orsino needed to built up a bit more. I believe that Meredith was right. There was a faction of blood mages in the circle. There's not much evidence in the game other than Blood Mages around every corner, a letter and Orsino's final statements. It's still wrong to burn the forest because of a few bad trees.

[AlexXIV]

srieser wrote...

I have no problem with the idol. It actually ties Hawke to her downfall in that he/she helped drag it out of the deep roads to begin with. I also don't think the idol really changed Meredith's thinking or methods. It just amped it up to 11.

I think the connection between Quinten and Orsino needed to built up a bit more. I believe that Meredith was right. There was a faction of blood mages in the circle. There's not much evidence in the game other than Blood Mages around every corner, a letter and Orsino's final statements. It's still wrong to burn the forest because of a few bad trees.

Thing is that many mages felt that the templars treated them unfair and 'overstepped their bounds'. Which I think is partly true. So many didn't feel obliged to follow the rules either. How many people do really feel loyal to laws that discriminate them?

[Ooga600]

Yes. It's stupid how they had to make everything related. Quentin should've been working alone, and Meredith should've been acting of her own accord. That avoids completely twisting Orsino's character around in the very end and using a macguffin to explain meredith's hatred of mages.

[zeejay21]

No, I wouldn't like it. I like twists in stories - it builds suspense.

And character.

[Maria Caliban]

Sarethus wrote...

If Merideth did not have the Idol or at least it wasn't driving her crazy?

The idol was fine. That the idol can completely brainjack you isn't. I've heard people say that the idol simply amplifies what's already there, but if that's the case, I didn't see it among Bartrand feeding his guards lyrium and torturing his men.

If Orisino had not aided in the murder of Hawke's mother and did not turn into an abomination? 

It's find that Orsino is dirty and a blood mage. Meredith is held up as a tyrant for most of the game and even other Templars suspect she'll murder those who disagree with her.

Suddenly switching to Harvester mode when there's no danger wasn't good.

I'd chop Act 1 in half and funnel those resources to Act 3 so we can better get to know Orsino and Meredith.

[The Angry One]

I would've preferred if neither Orsion nor Meredith were crazy.
All chance for nuance and real conflict was lost, and the fact that their craziness justifies each other's lunacy just makes it a cluster****.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Idol didn't seem to affect Bartrand the same way it affected Meredith. Bartrand said it wants to be worshiped, but Meredith was just going crazier and crazier for the Maker.

[Uzzy]

A proper clash of ideologies that simply could not co-exist and were forced to fight would have made Act III infinitely better, and made the whole thing a lot more adult. Freedom vs Security, shown through the prism of the Mage vs Templar debate. 

Instead we get the cheap lazy copout of two major characters being crazy. It's incredibly disappointing, and I expected much better from Bioware.

[Aggie Punbot]

I'm fine with the way it was done. This way there is no definitive "right" or "wrong" answer. If Meredith was "just" an extreme fanatic and Orsino was just a desperate man fighting for the survival of his bretheren, the right answer would have been to side with the mages every single time without question. However, by doing things the way they did, they wrote in a plausible justification for siding with the templars in order to make your decisions one way or another more even.

That being said, I wish I could have had a chance to verbally **** slap Orsino for his role in Hawke's mother's death.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 19 avril 2011 - 09:26 .

[Wulfram]

TS2Aggie wrote...

I'm fine with the way it was done. This way there is no definitive "right" or "wrong" answer. If Meredith was "just" an extreme fanatic and Orsino was just a desperate man fighting for the survival of his bretheren, the right answer would have been to side with the mages every single time without question. However, by doing things the way they did, they wrote in a plausible justification for siding with the templars in order to make your decisions one way or another more even.

That being said, I wish I could have had a chance to verbally **** slap Orsino for his role in Hawke's mother's death.

Except the revelations about Orsino are all after the decision of who to side with has been taken, and so can't really be used to justify picking the Templar's side.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In retrospect, making them both sane but extremists would have felt a lot more realistic than both of them being bonkers. In Orsino's case he could have still felt blood magic and aiding necromancer serial killers was necessary to free mages while still presenting a facade of reason to the knight commander AND not randomly abominized himself. And Meredith, well we didn't really know she was THAT crazy until the very last fight so she wouldn't have needed to change in character too much at all.