45 réponses à ce sujet

[ajm317]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

In retrospect, making them both sane but extremists would have felt a lot more realistic than both of them being bonkers. In Orsino's case he could have still felt blood magic and aiding necromancer serial killers was necessary to free mages while still presenting a facade of reason to the knight commander AND not randomly abominized himself.

This is not much different than what we got.  He did not "randomly abominize" himself.  I sometimes feel that the players are confusing gameplay and story here.  Yes in gameplay terms Hawke can hold off wave after wave of Templars no problem, but in story terms the situation is depicted as bleak and hopeless.  The mages were doomed.  Orsino acted out of desparation.

[Urazz]

kyles3 wrote...

Meredith and Orsino were introduced and developed very poorly, but I think they both end up being pretty irrelevant in the end anyway. To me, Anders is clearly the big bad of Act Three and is a far more interesting antagonist than either the crazy mage or the crazy templar.

Personally, I don't think Meredith was written badly at all.  We were always given hints throughout all the acts that Meredith was a bit of a fanatic, acted extreme in her duties, or pretty much turned a blind eye on the more extreme/corrupt templar activities.

Orsino though, was poorly written.  He was shown to be pretty reasonable all throughout Act 3 but then basically without warning, he starts using blood magic in the final battle.  Other than an ambiguous note to Quentin from "O," we had no idea Orsino was into blood magic.  Personally, I think there should've been something in Act 3 that causes us to find out Orsino practices blood magic (but no definative proof you can take to Cullen or Meredith) and we can confront him about it and he can give us his reasoning about it.

[ajm317]

Urazz wrote...

kyles3 wrote...

Meredith and Orsino were introduced and developed very poorly, but I think they both end up being pretty irrelevant in the end anyway. To me, Anders is clearly the big bad of Act Three and is a far more interesting antagonist than either the crazy mage or the crazy templar.

Personally, I don't think Meredith was written badly at all.  We were always given hints throughout all the acts that Meredith was a bit of a fanatic, acted extreme in her duties, or pretty much turned a blind eye on the more extreme/corrupt templar activities.

Orsino though, was poorly written.  He was shown to be pretty reasonable all throughout Act 3 but then basically without warning, he starts using blood magic in the final battle.  Other than an ambiguous note to Quentin from "O," we had no idea Orsino was into blood magic.  Personally, I think there should've been something in Act 3 that causes us to find out Orsino practices blood magic (but no definative proof you can take to Cullen or Meredith) and we can confront him about it and he can give us his reasoning about it.

I agree there should have been a bit more foreshadowing, and a longer Act III would have helped, but I actually think the fact that Orsino seems reasonable is part of the point they are trying to make here.  If you could easily tell who the bad guys were you wouldn't need a Circle.  The reason you need a Circle is that anyone could be a Blood Mage.

I think that, ideally, the players reaction to Orsino's reveal should have been something like "What the...well actually I guess that does explain a lot", but that's hard to set up given so many people are jaded by genre savvy here.

[Giltspur]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Of course it would have been better.

Yeah, I agree as well.

If Bioware is trying to cut down on some fantasy tropes in favor of some different approaches to storytelling, here's one I'd like to see cut out: antagonists corrupted by an artifact of power. 

Now I suppose I should clarify since artifacts of power aren't necessarily bad.  If the artifact of power is a symbol of something interesting that causes people to have to make decisions, like, say, the One Ring in Lord of the Rings, then it's fine.  There's a temptation to use it to get out of trouble.  But there's also a consequence to using it (as in the Dark Riders might find you).  And eventually you might fall victim to it (like Gollum).  Okay, that's fine.

But the lyrium idol just seems to make people crazy in DA2.  Maybe there's more to it than that.  But I didn't notice anything more to it than that (other than that it wakes statues up and briefly puts lyrium vine animations on them like the creature depicted in the idol has at its feet).  But it's not enough. So the idol's role with Meredith felt cheap.  I don't ever like to feel that agency has been taken away from a major character.

Now I suppose one defending Act III could counter and  say "Imagine she didn't have the idol and still did all those things."  Then I would say "Fair enough.  The idol is something extra in this scenario, but it doesn't rule out a more psychological explanation, necessarily."  But since I don't see as much of Meredith's psychology as I would have liked I keep looking towards the idol to explain her going over the edge.  And that makes me kind of wish it wasn't there to provide that distraction or that there'd been more opportunity to, for example, talk with her to get more of her character out there.

Modifié par Giltspur, 19 avril 2011 - 11:01 .

[Medhia Nox]

If you don't make these characters irredeemable - how are gamers going to indulge their childish violent tendencies?

[darrylzero]

Sarethus wrote...

In a few of my previous threads (Here and Here) I noted that Bioware had brought the game down to a human level then DAO with Arch-Demons etc but this had a story line cost in that there should have been more human level solutions: Assassination, appealing to Lelianna to tell the Divine to call off Merideth, Helping Trask in his rebellion, stirring up the citizenary or nobles for either side. 

Now we couldn't expect all of them to be in game but a few of them could have been and their failure could have led to the final battle. Assination could have failed, the Divine tells Merideth to calm down but doesn't recall her etc...

The main thing is: Human Level Problems should allow the opportunity but not necessarily success of Human Level Solutions.

This would have made a huge difference in my enjoyment of the game.  I think the point that these efforts do not have to be successful to be meaningful is huge.  To use an example that was being discussed elsewhere, Bethany would not have to choose to leave the Gallows in order for an attempt to break her out to be extremely engaging.  On a more mechanical level, I've desperately missed the ability to sneak around in any meaningful capacity, or attempt to resolve any situation without just blundering into combat. 

Any character I can really conceive of would attempt to avoid combat most of the time, and most probably would have tried to assassinate Meredith (or leave Kirkwall entirely) before things finally came to a head.  If Bioware decides I can't avoid certain fights (or even most of them), I can get with that, but they need to make me feel like I can't avoid these fights, not that the game is just placing arbitrary limitations on my ability to do so.  Some of it will feel a little arbitrary, inevitably, but I rarely even felt like that was a remote priority while playing.  Being able to attempt some more creative solutions to dealing with Meredith and/or Orsino would really help.

Maria Caliban wrote...

The idol was fine. That the idol can completely brainjack you isn't. I've heard people say that the idol simply amplifies what's already there, but if that's the case, I didn't see it among Bartrand feeding his guards lyrium and torturing his men.

It's fine that Orsino is dirty and a blood mage. Meredith is held up as a tyrant for most of the game and even other Templars suspect she'll murder those who disagree with her.

Suddenly switching to Harvester mode when there's no danger wasn't good.

I'd chop Act 1 in half and funnel those resources to Act 3 so we can better get to know Orsino and Meredith.

I agree with all this, but I love the idea behind Act 1.  You're penniless and desperate, trying to make it in a new city.  I'm kind of a broken record here, but I would have loved the chance to play a Hawke (or maybe several) who really fell into a life of crime under those circumstances and had to redeem himself/herself in Acts II and III.

Cutting Act 1 in order to make more room for Act 3 makes sense, but I'd like to see Act 1 improved (and its relationship with the rest of the game improved alongside it) as well.

Modifié par darrylzero, 20 avril 2011 - 04:55 .

[Rexiselic]

I just wish Orsino didn't go crazy when you sided with him. Him resorting to blood magic once he had his back to the wall wasn't something that I disliked.

I wouldn't change anything about the Knight-Commander, because the rest of the templars seemed completely sane and Cullen was clearly going to take over. I just wish that the army of templars + Cullen had helped me in that final fight against Merideth instead of disappearing on me.

I mean, I don't want the fight to be easy. They could have had their asses kicked or at least have had Cullen knocked unconscious in the cutscene to account for why he is not helping, it just vexed me that they suddenly disappeared when combat started.

Modifié par Rexiselic, 20 avril 2011 - 05:00 .

[Maria Caliban]

Strange, I recall Cullen fighting with me at the end. Did you side with the Templars?

[Rexiselic]

Through out the whole game or only at the end?

I was trying to help the mages throughout the entire game, but after that blood mage murdered my mother and Anders blew up the Chantry (not to mention that every single other mage is crazy), I sided with a surprised Knight-Commander when she invoked the Rite of Annulment and continued to side with the templars from there.

I could simply be wrong or there could be a bug.

[IanPolaris]

Cullen fights with you no matter what. The rest of the Templars don't.

-Polaris

[Rexiselic]

My mistake then, I guess he just got lost in the shuffle. I was rather certain that he wasn't there, but I guess I just forgot and have started ranting about my own imagination.

[LobselVith8]

Sarethus wrote...

While I dislike the game for a variety of reasons most of which have been listed on this board, this issue has not really been touched on as far as I know so I thought I'd ask how you all would feel about the ending:

If Merideth did not have the Idol or at least it wasn't driving her crazy?

If Orisino had not aided in the murder of Hawke's mother and did not turn into an abomination? 

I don't think Orsino being recycled into the GoA Harvester (because it's not like we didn't have enough of the recycled enviornments and even the recycled Varterral) or Meredith becoming a Super-Saiyan with the Red Macguffin of Insanity added anything to the story.

Sarethus wrote...

The main difference with the above scenario is that it would result in a pure mages versus templar issue. No excuses such as that bit** was insane so I had to kill her or that knife-ear became a monster of human corpses so I had to kill him.

I feel the above would have had a stronger impact on the plot.

The storyline lost the issue about mages and templars when the antagonists Hawke has to fight are outside the Gallows and we hardly see any mages from inside the Gallows, except for Orsino and Bethany and every person we have to fight ignores what Hawke has done in relation to templars or mages, and the antagonists proceed to try to kill him regardless of his actual allegiances. Forcing Hawke down a linear progression where choice didn't matter certainly didn't help the story.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

I prefer it this way.  Less of a delusion that it was possible for things to end in sunshine and rainbows from using a high coercion skill.  I mean it's still there somewhat, a few people think the whole thing could've been solved by a chat over tea, but for the most part it's recognized that Kirkwall was a powder keg waiting to blow.

Not to say I prefer the lolacaust that is the entire final mission.  Orsino turning Harvester for no good reason if you're on the mage side, Meredith's dragoon jumps and statue minions, pretty much anything involving Anders... all terribad.  But I don't think things would have been better if everyone was sane and lawful-good.

Edit:  Me no type so gud.

well, to be honest, Orsino said "Quentin's research was too evil. Too dangerous" which refers to a spell Quentin told him to transform into a Harvester. So I guess he thought he would turn into it, be stronger, and not go mindless.

Honestly, the transformation could've been done better. Here's a few ways:

• Account for whether or not the mages live. I'm tired of saving mages only to see them die from sudden heartattacks at the same time caused by a fungal infection of the big toe (end of Broken Circle and Orsino scene)
  
  
  
  
• If all the mages die, Orsino loses it completely (he was still showing some sanity, though what he did was stupid), cuts his wrist, gets possessed by a demon, restrains it long enough to tell Hawke what he just did was foolish but the fear and everything else that's happened was too much to bear and that Hawke needs to slay him, and then he turns into a Harvester. That might've worked better.
  
  
  
  
• If none of the mages die, Orsino doesn't do anything and is optimistic about winning. He then tells Hawke that he'll stay a little longer to fight off Meredith (which wouldn't happen, he'd be dealing with say a few other templars) and escape to warn the other Circles.
  
  
  
  
• Using the above scenario in number 3, the Veil is torn so much that a Pride demon possesses a dead mage and casts a spell that transforms it and all the other corpses into the Harvester, which Orsino would help defeat.

Idk that's just how I think it could've been better. Meredith and the lyrium idol I had no problem with.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[TheChosenKing]

 If there was some more explanation to Orsino's situation rather then it feeling like 'oh, here's a boss fight for the heck of it' then I would be completely fine with it all. I can understand Merideth already, but fighting Orsino just seemed pointless.

[TEWR]

TheChosenKing wrote...

 If there was some more explanation to Orsino's situation rather then it feeling like 'oh, here's a boss fight for the heck of it' then I would be completely fine with it all. I can understand Merideth already, but fighting Orsino just seemed pointless.

I think a few more main quests should've been added to emphasize how bad the conflict between the Templars and Mages was getting. The only way for people to really know was by talking to a bunch of NPCs.

[Persephone]

I personally would have liked both their betrayals much more if they had not been rushed out the door.

Mind you, everything falling apart at a break neck speed had its charm.

But:

I would have preferred Act III to be longer, to do more work for either of the two or with them, depending on who I chose to support. (Act II& III had some exclusive content for each before the finale, but more would have been good for better character development) . End Act III on choosing whom you ultimately support and solidifying their position.

And then have Act IV where it all goes to hell.

I.E. If I side with the mages, unrest, invasion attempts by templars and other countries driving Orsino over the edge. Involve Bethany, if she is at the Circle. Have Carver actively oppose me if he is a Templar.

And then have a HUGE show down, deciding once and for all whom Kirkwall will follow. Its Champion or the Chantry and the rules it has been living under for centuries. All of this depending on choices you make once you have established the faction you support.

[Rexiselic]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...




[*]Account for whether or not the mages live. I'm tired of saving mages only to see them die from sudden heartattacks at the same time caused by a fungal infection of the big toe (end of Broken Circle and Orsino scene)

I have to say that I agree, that and things like it are very annoying.

[Lewie]

It may have been better but a story that rattles your brain and leaves you facepalming works well too.

[White_Buffalo94]

AlexXIV wrote...

kyles3 wrote...

Meredith and Orsino were introduced and developed very poorly, but I think they both end up being pretty irrelevant in the end anyway. To me, Anders is clearly the big bad of Act Three and is a far more interesting antagonist than either the crazy mage or the crazy templar.

Well that's not entirely right. Anders does not force the conflict alone. It is a more or less incapable First Enchanter and Knight Commander who create the situation Anders abuses to begin with. Also KC Meredith decides the Right of Annullment. It is not forced on her. It is what she wants to do. Anders blows up the Chantry, but the only real consequence is that the Chantry is blown up and the Grand Cleric and many innocents are dead. It doesn't make the Right of Annullment an unavoidable choice though unless the KC insists on it and the rest of the templars (i.e. Cullen) don't prevent it either. So basically the important people are Anders and Orsino on the mage side and Meredith and Cullen on the templar side. Not to mention Elthina. Each of them could probably have prevented the conflict at some point. The only one who couldn't do anything, try as he/she might, was Hawke.

Which makes a lot of sense. If any one wanted to, Hawke's only real way of stopping that person is by coercion or killing. From the beginning I think Anders was planning to blow the Chantry. Anyway, my point is that there are many things that you simply cannot influence to your way. However, the default/only choice of MamaHawke dying should be scrapped. Who cares if almost everyone would choose to save her? Since it is not a necessarily important subplot that doesn't influence the game save for Meredith remarking on it. Well now I am rambling

[Wulfram]

Simply having the Templar battle before Orsino's transformation seem like something of a challenge, rather than being a total curbstomp would have helped a fair bit

[Kloreep]

Meredith's end was my least favorite part of the entire story.

I didn't have any big problems with Orsino's reveal. Orsino is not crazy, he just gets backed in to a corner in the end. He's a reasoned and reasonably good advocate for the mages. He just happens to be corrupt as hell, too. I agree we probably didn't see enough of both him and Meredith, but I thought it worked well enough when he turned out to be just as corrupt and willing to sacrifice innocents as Meredith had shown herself to be.
He does hold off on the blood magic for a while, even after the mages are beaten back in to the keep. Before that, he goes to some pains during Act 3 to try to avoid a confrontation at all. It's only when he loses hope and figures he's going to die anyway that he goes and turns in to a Harvester, one final pox to leave for the "mundanes" or whatever term you'd prefer for non-mages. As Maria Caliban says, there really should have been an immediate danger; it's presented a bit odd in that you defeat a wave of Templars and then he goes bat**** before the next one even arrives. That's just an issue of cutscene implementation though, all that was needed was a bit more cutscene where a whole horde of Templars marching into the hall just before he did it.

Mind you, the Harvester was a tad gratuitous. But it makes sense enough for him to do something desperate, and if Bioware wants to go for the old "big boss fight at the end" saw I'm not going to complain.

Meredith, though... why. Just why. Her character was great to begin with, and I say that even though I apparently missed some exposition on her past that she delivers if you're sympathetic to her in Act 3. But then at the end she suddenly devolves. DA2 is very good at having its major characters be responsible for theiractions, especially considering this is a world where people can reasonably claim "a demon made me do it." Meredith could have been Orsino's proper counterpart, an extremist who is fully, tragically responsible for her own actions. Instead, the idol ends up making her look like a victim who might not have gone down the path she did if she was in her right mind.

srieser wrote...

I have no problem with the idol. It actually ties Hawke to her downfall in that he/she helped drag it out of the deep roads to begin with. I also don't think the idol really changed Meredith's thinking or methods. It just amped it up to 11.

Fair enough, I guess we could say Meredith was already on this path. If that's true, though, that makes the idol seem at least as unnecessary to me.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

In Orsino's case he could have still felt blood magic and aiding necromancer serial killers was necessary to free mages while still presenting a facade of reason to the knight commander AND not randomly abominized himself.

I thought he did fine on the "facade" of reason front. He pushes back against Meredith, yes, but he also takes steps to try to avoid the conflict that eventually happens due to Meredith & Anders.

Giltspur wrote...

So the idol's role with Meredith felt cheap.  I don't ever like to feel that agency has been taken away from a major character.

Yes, exactly.
Anders being willingly possessed by Justice or Merrill's flirtation with demons is much more of a real choice, because they have some understanding that this is a risky thing going in, even if they of course can't predict exactly where it will lead. Further, it works on a metaphorical level because both of them hope to gain something from it. They lack necessary conviction/power to accomplish their goals, and the game investigates what they gain from these decisions and what it costs them. "What do they want, and how far will they go to get it?" as I've seen it phrased. It may still be fantastical on a literal level, but at the same time it's very human and respectful of the characters.

But what did Meredith need the idol for? I'm sure there's more backstory then we saw, but as it was presented, it seemed like she was feeling in the mood for a new sword and went "ooh, look, shiny lyrium, make me a sword from that!" It's not clear she even understood the risk. Even if she did, there was no reason for her to desire a lyrium sword; her authority is her power, she doesn't need to become even better at killing people to secure that. It just seems senseless. She paid a price there is no indication she had an inkling of, for a "gain" that she had no apparent reason to want.

Modifié par Kloreep, 21 avril 2011 - 06:31 .