92 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

If you're going into a life-threatening situation in a place totally foreign to you with folks you don't know very well, it's not hard to see why you would bring somebody you trusted absolutely who is also capable of healing and killing enemies with her brain.

[pallascedar]

AlexXIV wrote...
I am not attacking people, I attack the game. I take Bethany everywhere like I said in my first post. Because I know nothing happens to her until the deep roads. But that's metagame information and I want to group with her as long as she is available. But from a role play point of view it still makes no sense. The deep roads are not much more dangerous as any fight for Bethany. She can always die, she can always be spotted by a templar everytime she uses magic. And she is an apostate. Anders is a Grey Warden. Maybe a rogue Grey Warden, but still. I just find it a silly argument to say Hawke takes his sister with him/her to protect her. Then Hawke would have to take his/her mother as well. Because Hawke is so good at protecting people who are with him/her.

Taking Bethany with you might not be the smartest choice when you look at it: but if Hawke believes s/he's capable of protecting Bethany, or that Bethany is capable of protecting herself, then it makes perfect sense. The thing about games is they can't have infinite possibilities in how things work out, and I feel like that's what you're complaining about.

DAII has plenty of problems, and the fact that something terrible doesn't potentially happen to Bethany on every single mission you bring her on isn't one of them. You're forced to make role-playing decisions you might not otherwise because any video game, by its nature, has to stick to a particular plot line. Maybe my Bhaalspawn didn't care about Imoen or vengeance, maybe my DA:O warden would rather just dissapear, and hide in Orlais. Maybe Hawke could just go back to Fereldan. But those decisions don't work within the framework of the game.

Modifié par pallascedar, 19 avril 2011 - 06:34 .

[IanPolaris]

Honestly, I think the better question is why *wouldn't* you take your own sister and proven fighting companion with you to the Deep Roads? Unless you are openly metagaming, I can't think of a single good reason to leave her behind (since you are obviously not a mage yourself). In fact on the surface it seems to be the ideal party if you are a warrior (Hawke-Warrior, Varric-Rogue, Anders-Healer and Deep Roads Expert, Bethany-Mage/Fire Support and off-Healer).

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

pallascedar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I am not attacking people, I attack the game. I take Bethany everywhere like I said in my first post. Because I know nothing happens to her until the deep roads. But that's metagame information and I want to group with her as long as she is available. But from a role play point of view it still makes no sense. The deep roads are not much more dangerous as any fight for Bethany. She can always die, she can always be spotted by a templar everytime she uses magic. And she is an apostate. Anders is a Grey Warden. Maybe a rogue Grey Warden, but still. I just find it a silly argument to say Hawke takes his sister with him/her to protect her. Then Hawke would have to take his/her mother as well. Because Hawke is so good at protecting people who are with him/her.

Taking Bethany with you might not be the smartest choice when you look at it: but if Hawke believes s/he's capable of protecting Bethany, or that Bethany is capable of protecting herself, then it makes perfect sense. The thing about games is they can't have infinite possibilities in how things work out, and I feel like that's what you're complaining about.

DAII has plenty of problems, and the fact that something terrible doesn't potentially happen to Bethany on every single mission you bring her on isn't one of them.

No I don't need infinte options but I like to think outside of the 'it's a game' box. So I am always disappointed if I can't have the option that makes most sense to me. Maybe be just my opinion.

[Torax]

Carver expresses that he has to go. Bethany is willing to go but just not as pushy about it as Carver. Mages are powerful against Dark Spawn. It does make sense to bring her or merrill at that point. As for both Bethany and Merrill, they both have seen Darkspawn in the past even without doing a quest like the Ironbark quest. So to a point if the goal is another mage you could go with either Bethany or Merrill in that scenario. Bethany does wear shoes though.

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

Honestly, I think the better question is why *wouldn't* you take your own sister and proven fighting companion with you to the Deep Roads? Unless you are openly metagaming, I can't think of a single good reason to leave her behind (since you are obviously not a mage yourself). In fact on the surface it seems to be the ideal party if you are a warrior (Hawke-Warrior, Varric-Rogue, Anders-Healer and Deep Roads Expert, Bethany-Mage/Fire Support and off-Healer).

-Polaris

Think first we would have to discuss why you can only take 3 of your companions and not ... 5 for example. You have Merril, Anders, Aveline, Varric, etc. I mean of course you can argue that Bethany is the one you know best. But you have a bloodmage and a grey warden as alternatives ...

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Honestly, I think the better question is why *wouldn't* you take your own sister and proven fighting companion with you to the Deep Roads? Unless you are openly metagaming, I can't think of a single good reason to leave her behind (since you are obviously not a mage yourself). In fact on the surface it seems to be the ideal party if you are a warrior (Hawke-Warrior, Varric-Rogue, Anders-Healer and Deep Roads Expert, Bethany-Mage/Fire Support and off-Healer).

-Polaris

Think first we would have to discuss why you can only take 3 of your companions and not ... 5 for example. You have Merril, Anders, Aveline, Varric, etc. I mean of course you can argue that Bethany is the one you know best. But you have a bloodmage and a grey warden as alternatives ...

The idea partry seems to be a warrior, 2 mages (one a healer), and a rogue.  Varric is locked in, which takes care of the rogue.  Assuming that Hawke is a warrior, then you'd want Anders who is not only a healer but an indisputed Deep Roads expert by virtue of being an ex-warden.  That would leave either Merrill or Bethany.  A bloodmage you barely know at this point, or your own sister?  IMHO not a hard choice..unless you are metagaming.

Now, if your Hawke is a rogue, that changes (and the entire Deep Roads part of Act 1 gets very messy).  You can't take two mages in that case because Varric is locked in and you need at least one warrior......in that case I could see leaving Bethany (reluctantly) behind.

-Polaris

[Icy Magebane]

I've heard of Nightmare solo runs. There is no ideal party. I only say this because I play on Hard and I use a 2H warrior with Aveline, Fenris, and Varric. No mages, and it never fails. Basically, any team can work... I wouldn't base anything on ideal party composition, because I know that's just a myth.

[IanPolaris]

Icy Magebane wrote...

I've heard of Nightmare solo runs. There is no ideal party. I only say this because I play on Hard and I use a 2H warrior with Aveline, Fenris, and Varric. No mages, and it never fails. Basically, any team can work... I wouldn't base anything on ideal party composition, because I know that's just a myth.

No healing is really tricky when facing the dragon and ancient rockwraith.  Just saying.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Honestly, I think the better question is why *wouldn't* you take your own sister and proven fighting companion with you to the Deep Roads? Unless you are openly metagaming, I can't think of a single good reason to leave her behind (since you are obviously not a mage yourself). In fact on the surface it seems to be the ideal party if you are a warrior (Hawke-Warrior, Varric-Rogue, Anders-Healer and Deep Roads Expert, Bethany-Mage/Fire Support and off-Healer).

-Polaris

Think first we would have to discuss why you can only take 3 of your companions and not ... 5 for example. You have Merril, Anders, Aveline, Varric, etc. I mean of course you can argue that Bethany is the one you know best. But you have a bloodmage and a grey warden as alternatives ...

The idea partry seems to be a warrior, 2 mages (one a healer), and a rogue.  Varric is locked in, which takes care of the rogue.  Assuming that Hawke is a warrior, then you'd want Anders who is not only a healer but an indisputed Deep Roads expert by virtue of being an ex-warden.  That would leave either Merrill or Bethany.  A bloodmage you barely know at this point, or your own sister?  IMHO not a hard choice..unless you are metagaming.

Now, if your Hawke is a rogue, that changes (and the entire Deep Roads part of Act 1 gets very messy).  You can't take two mages in that case because Varric is locked in and you need at least one warrior......in that case I could see leaving Bethany (reluctantly) behind.

-Polaris

Well it is not metagaming. It is being reluctant to expose your own sister to an unknown danger. Metagaming is rather to assume they will all come back alive. Or anyone. I mean they are going into the deeproads to a place few people have been an lived to tell about. I don't doubt that Hawke would prefer Bethany over an unknown random mage. But question would be if Hawke prefers it so much that he/she would risk Bethany's life for it. Without really needing to.

I mean if chances to survive this would be 10% without Bethany and 15% with Bethany, you would have to gamble. It's like a lottery. Risk to lose both vs risk to lose one. And your mother begging you to not take your sister with you.

[Icy Magebane]

IanPolaris wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

I've heard of Nightmare solo runs. There is no ideal party. I only say this because I play on Hard and I use a 2H warrior with Aveline, Fenris, and Varric. No mages, and it never fails. Basically, any team can work... I wouldn't base anything on ideal party composition, because I know that's just a myth.

No healing is really tricky when facing the dragon and ancient rockwraith.  Just saying.

-Polaris

Tricky, but satisfying when you win.  Anyway, I didn't mean to butt in.  You have a good point, but I just wanted to say that there is no universally accepted ideal.  What you said is a good enough reason to take Bethany though.

[caradoc2000]

IanPolaris wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

I've heard of Nightmare solo runs. There is no ideal party. I only say this because I play on Hard and I use a 2H warrior with Aveline, Fenris, and Varric. No mages, and it never fails. Basically, any team can work... I wouldn't base anything on ideal party composition, because I know that's just a myth.

No healing is really tricky when facing the dragon and ancient rockwraith.  Just saying.

Isn't this metagaming? You won't know in advance what you will face down there.

[Trophonius]

I took her to the Deep Roads with the knowledge that if I didn't, the Circle would come barging into Gamlen's door, confiscating the only sibling my Hawke had left. In a reality where she's the only one other than Malcolm to possess the gift, everything her family's done to safeguard her from a life of captivity would've been unavailing. At least, a life with the Grey Wardens would've given her a nobler purpose. Using her magic to battle darkspawn and following her cousin's footsteps, aiding in an upcoming Blight.

It never occurred to me that she'd be grumpier and callous if you put her through that.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

IanPolaris wrote...
No healing is really tricky when facing the dragon and ancient rockwraith.  Just saying.

-Polaris

Tricky =/= impossible though.

As for Bethany:
a) Assuming you bring her with you on quests before hand, she's a proven mage you've worked with before.
 If not, there's still the 'glossed over' year she worked with you.
c) If you were leaving her at home, prior to the DR it was only for, at most, a day without you being around to 'protect' her from Templars. The DR expidition will be 2 weeks minimum (A week there, a week back, 2-4 days of time in the tiage (barring anything like betrayal or murder attempts, but how likely is that?)) where the only protection she'll have is hiding in a hut and hoping Templars don't ask the wrong person about apostates.
d) Hawke's only other options for magic support are an admited and unrepentant blood mage and a Gray Warden Abomination who abandoned his oaths/duties.

[TobiTobsen]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

c) If you were leaving her at home, prior to the DR it was only for, at most, a day without you being around to 'protect' her from Templars. The DR expidition will be 2 weeks minimum (A week there, a week back, 2-4 days of time in the tiage (barring anything like betrayal or murder attempts, but how likely is that?)) where the only protection she'll have is hiding in a hut and hoping Templars don't ask the wrong person about apostates.

You're not only leaving her at home, you're leaving her with GAMLEN! Mr. "Hey the kids of my sister would like to work for you! One of them is a mage!", who hangs around in the same place where templars go after they call it a day.

"Hey Mr. Templar would you pay my **** for me? For that favour I'll tell you where you can find a mage!"

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 19 avril 2011 - 08:34 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Naturally, Gamlen would count as 'the wrong person'.

[primero holodon]

well, from my Hawkes perspective It's because he has spent his entire life protecting her from the templars, and as a result he feels that if he were to leave her she might be taken by the Templars and he would never forgive himself if that happened.

[TheRealJayDee]

Well, for my first Hawke it was never a question - he needed her. She was the only mage he could trust blindly. She was able to heal and shield herself and her companions and rain fire down on the 'spawn. She was well prepared to deal with the 'spawn from killing dozens and dozens of them back in Ferelden. He would do anything to protect her, and he knew Aveline (the only other companion he fully trusted) would do the same. She was extremely well equipped, too.

What were the alternatives?

Anders - of course he looks like the obvious choice, being a healer and a Warden. On the other hand he was an abomination of unknown mental health, whom Hawke knew for a few days and who repeatedly stated he did not want to go back into the DR.

Merrill - the overly naive, if not downright stupid bloodmage, who could not heal... at all.

In the end, it worked perfectly. Hawke, Aveline and Varric made sure the darkspawn wouldn't threaten her, and she obliterated dozens of them with her fire. No darkspawn even had a chance to attack her in melee combat. Curse you, off-screen taint, for taking my sister!

Btw, I as the player didn't know what would happen, so i really just decided this as my Hawke. We also both happened to hate (new) Anders, so he never had a chance to come along...