31 réponses à ce sujet

[p95h]

Allure's crook is the staff dropped from the Harriman estate:

The stats are as follows:

35 Spirit Damage (48 dps)

2 Rune slots (This is why I consider it the best)

+38 mana/stamina
+5 mana/stamina regeneration rate

By slotting a lightning rune and a spirit rune, you get the added effect of electricity stuns (and get electricity bonus from various other accessories). I slotted those, until I finished Bartam's Haunted Estate in Act 3, then switched out electricity for the 38% Attack speed increase rune (If you prevent Varric from taking rune, Sandal will make the 2nd special rune from it).

As a spirit mage, any bonus to spirit damage works for your spells, but it also works for your staff as well, if it is spirit based.

Orsino's is "ostensibly the best" Spirit staff, called "Staff of Violation"):

41 Spirit Damage (56 dps)
+3 Willpower (Imho, kinda useless given the spirit syphon ability)
+15% Spirit Damage
2.5% chance to infect with walking bomb (again, kinda useless considering a spirit mage fully spec'd has 20% chance to spread a walking bomb after having cast it once)

Doing the math, we see that 41 dmg * 1.15% = 47.15 dmg, which works out to about 65 dps.

On the other hand, Allure's crook: Slotted with 31% Attack speed rune, and +7 spirit rune, gives:

42 Spirit Damage (57 dps, or Approx 75 dps with the 31% speed increase, more if you have other accessories that increase speed as well.)
Not only is the dps higher, but the +38 mana, and the 5 mana regen rate is better for spirit mages than Violation's stats.

If Violation were slotted with a rune, it would be hand's down better, but Allure's Crook 2 rune slots give it the edge as the best Spirit Mage staff, over Violation or even Final Thought (Unless playing nightmare), imho.

Modifié par p95h, 19 avril 2011 - 11:51 .

[p95h]

I realize this probably would be better under strategy forum, but it does qualify (albeit slightly) under the "classes and builds" section as well

[mr_afk]

pretty sure you should use a rune of devastation for the second slot.
And then give it to fenris/sebastian for sh*ts and giggles. haha

Modifié par mr_afk, 19 avril 2011 - 11:35 .

[p95h]

mr_afk wrote...

pretty sure you should use a rune of devastation for the second slot.
And then give it to fenris/sebastian for sh*ts and giggles. haha

The rune of devestation would be nice to use as a melee staff that bypasses armor. Might actually be worth checking out, if it can be done at all. Much better to slot a 2hander with that rune, or a bow like Absolution.

As for adding that rune to a Spirit Mage's staff, the Sandal Special Rune for Attack Speed is magnitudes better.

Modifié par p95h, 19 avril 2011 - 11:40 .

[mr_afk]

p95h wrote...

The rune of devestation would be nice to use as a melee staff that bypasses armor. Might actually be worth checking out

As for adding that rune to a Spirit Mage's staff, the Sandal Special Rune for Attack Speed is magnitudes better.

It's ranged even as a cross-class weapon. Check out IN1's templar build based on it.
The rune of devastation is amazing in any weapon. I believe it increases your total damage by 10% (somebody correct me if i'm wrong). Sandal's Special Rune is actually pretty terrible. It increases the chance for knockback - but given the way it's probably better to be just killing them rather than knocking them around, more damage is always better.

Edit: Sorry, misread your comment. The primeval lyrium rune (which sandal makes out of the lyrium fragment) is probably the best rune in the game. However, the rune of devastation comes in after that - trumping the +7 or whatever from that spirit rune (as your total damage can be in the 10000s which means that the rune is adding on 1000s of damage). Sandal's special rune which he randomly gives to you is the rune that does knockback. It sorta sucks. haha

Modifié par mr_afk, 19 avril 2011 - 11:53 .

[p95h]

The rune I speak of is not the Knockback rune Sandal makes, but rather the Attack Speed rune he makes from the piece of Idol in Bartram's Haunted Mansion.

[mr_afk]

p95h wrote...

The rune I speak of is not the Knockback rune Sandal makes, but rather the Attack Speed rune he makes from the piece of Idol in Bartram's Haunted Mansion.

Sorry, as you can see in my hastily (but too slow) edit, I figured out what you were saying. Generally that rune is referred to as the primeval lyrium rune which explains my initial confusion. Anyway, replace the spirit rune with a rune of devastation and watch the numbers roll 

Modifié par mr_afk, 19 avril 2011 - 11:55 .

[p95h]

mr_afk wrote...

p95h wrote...

The rune I speak of is not the Knockback rune Sandal makes, but rather the Attack Speed rune he makes from the piece of Idol in Bartram's Haunted Mansion.

Sorry, as you can see in my hastily (but too slow) edit, I figured out what you were saying. Generally that rune is referred to as the primeval lyrium rune which explains my initial confusion. Anyway, replace the spirit rune with a rune of devastation and watch the numbers roll 

That's the beuty of a 2 Rune slot item, you can experiement with what works best 

[p95h]

I tested the Devestation rune vs. the +7 Spirit rune, and the Spirit Rune wins out. The Devestation rune only gives a +10% dmg from base which is 35. so 3.5 dmg incease, vs. a +7 dmg increase for the spirit rune.

[godlike13]

Remember, a staff's base damage also affects the damage of spells. The higher the base damage of a staff, the higher the damage of spells. So even though Allure's Crook base DPS for basic attack damage can be better than Staff of Violation's, spells with the Staff of Violation will do greater damage.

Modifié par godlike13, 19 avril 2011 - 01:39 .

[godlike13]

p95h wrote...

I tested the Devestation rune vs. the +7 Spirit rune, and the Spirit Rune wins out. The Devestation rune only gives a +10% dmg from base which is 35. so 3.5 dmg incease, vs. a +7 dmg increase for the spirit rune.

Rune of Devastation gives +10% to all dmg. Its not based off of base, but the damage dealt i believe. So if ur basic attack hits for 100, the Rune of Devastation will give u add extra 10. And it applies to all sources of damage i believe, which includes spells.

[Bones40]

godlike13 wrote...

p95h wrote...

I tested the Devestation rune vs. the +7 Spirit rune, and the Spirit Rune wins out. The Devestation rune only gives a +10% dmg from base which is 35. so 3.5 dmg incease, vs. a +7 dmg increase for the spirit rune.

Rune of Devastation gives +10% to all dmg. Its not based off of base, but the damage dealt i believe. So if ur basic attack hits for 100, the Rune of Devastation will give u add extra 10. And it applies to all sources of damage i believe, which includes spells.

This is correct.  So say you crit on a chain lightning against a STAGGERED enemy for thousands of damage, the Rune of Devestation will add hundreds of damage points (10% of total damage), and the spirit rune will add...7 points.

Modifié par Bones40, 19 avril 2011 - 05:10 .

[ezrafetch]

p95h wrote...

The rune I speak of is not the Knockback rune Sandal makes, but rather the Attack Speed rune he makes from the piece of Idol in Bartram's Haunted Mansion.

But overall, why would you waste the Primeval Lyrium Rune on Allure's Crook?  By far, the best unique staff in the game is Torch of Falon'Din, and that has a saucy two slots there for a Fire Rune and the Primeval Lyrium rune.  And it has a much, much higher base damage, which means you're getting extra EXTRA saucy spell damage bonuses.

I hardly ever use Spirit staves, just because 99% of enemies weak to Spirit are already weak to another type (Templars are also weak to cold, undead are also weak to electricity).  The only thing worth keeping a Spirit staff around for is probably Darkspawn, but they have so little health anyways that you can just nuke them out really easily.  Spirit staves are useful when you don't have a complete set of elemental staves, but once you have most/all of the types, Spirit quickly falls to the wayside.  Shade/abomination/demon types are also rather common, which makes trying to consistently use a Spirit staff a bit of a puzzler.

Also, going into the Spirit tree any farther than Spirit Bolt and Walking Bomb is mostly a waste of points.  The rest of the skills are underwhelming, to say the least.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 19 avril 2011 - 06:38 .

[godlike13]

ezrafetch wrote...
Also, going into the Spirit tree any farther than Spirit Bolt and Walking Bomb is mostly a waste of points.  The rest of the skills are underwhelming, to say the least.

Sad, but true unfortunately.

[mr_afk]

ezrafetch wrote...

But overall, why would you waste the Primeval Lyrium Rune on Allure's Crook?  By far, the best unique staff in the game is Torch of Falon'Din, and that has a saucy two slots there for a Fire Rune and the Primeval Lyrium rune.  And it has a much, much higher base damage, which means you're getting extra EXTRA saucy spell damage bonuses.

It's probably more for cross-class experimental fun. With the primeval rune, haste, fervour and barrage, a warrior can be turned into a complete mage staff machine-gun (which is pretty cool, even if it is only single target damage).
I did a similar thing with a rogue (rapid fire crits) but it wasn't that effective in the end as despite the high attack speed the dps was a lot lower than most bows. Plus certain abilities such as assassinate and vendetta didn't work very well.

But yeah, for a mage most of the act III staffs (both the drops and the really expensive items) are a lot better. Not only do they have higher base damages but they often add happy things like 30% cold damage...
I still don't think final thought is worth it though. Maybe it's just me.

[p95h]

godlike13 wrote...

ezrafetch wrote...
Also, going into the Spirit tree any farther than Spirit Bolt and Walking Bomb is mostly a waste of points.  The rest of the skills are underwhelming, to say the least.

Sad, but true unfortunately.

I disagree. Spirit Syphon is incredibly useful to maintain mana pool, and health if you upgrade it. With that, you can concentrate more points in Magic rather than willpower, and deliver an overall better DPS. Not all spirit skills are flashy, but they are useful.

[p95h]

Bones40 wrote...

godlike13 wrote...

p95h wrote...

I tested the Devestation rune vs. the +7 Spirit rune, and the Spirit Rune wins out. The Devestation rune only gives a +10% dmg from base which is 35. so 3.5 dmg incease, vs. a +7 dmg increase for the spirit rune.

Rune of Devastation gives +10% to all dmg. Its not based off of base, but the damage dealt i believe. So if ur basic attack hits for 100, the Rune of Devastation will give u add extra 10. And it applies to all sources of damage i believe, which includes spells.

This is correct.  So say you crit on a chain lightning against a STAGGERED enemy for thousands of damage, the Rune of Devestation will add hundreds of damage points (10% of total damage), and the spirit rune will add...7 points.

This assumes that you've spec'd as an primal mage, rather than a spirit mage. The basic assumption of my argument is a spirit spec. For lightning mages, there are other staffs which are better.

I tested the rune of devestation and the spirit rune seemed to do damage more quickly. Perhaps this is because I wasn't using spells, but only checking the staffs themselves. I'll redo a test to consider spell usage as well.

Modifié par p95h, 20 avril 2011 - 01:53 .

[p95h]

ezrafetch wrote...

p95h wrote...

The rune I speak of is not the Knockback rune Sandal makes, but rather the Attack Speed rune he makes from the piece of Idol in Bartram's Haunted Mansion.

But overall, why would you waste the Primeval Lyrium Rune on Allure's Crook?  By far, the best unique staff in the game is Torch of Falon'Din, and that has a saucy two slots there for a Fire Rune and the Primeval Lyrium rune.  And it has a much, much higher base damage, which means you're getting extra EXTRA saucy spell damage bonuses.

I hardly ever use Spirit staves, just because 99% of enemies weak to Spirit are already weak to another type (Templars are also weak to cold, undead are also weak to electricity).  The only thing worth keeping a Spirit staff around for is probably Darkspawn, but they have so little health anyways that you can just nuke them out really easily.  Spirit staves are useful when you don't have a complete set of elemental staves, but once you have most/all of the types, Spirit quickly falls to the wayside.  Shade/abomination/demon types are also rather common, which makes trying to consistently use a Spirit staff a bit of a puzzler.

Also, going into the Spirit tree any farther than Spirit Bolt and Walking Bomb is mostly a waste of points.  The rest of the skills are underwhelming, to say the least.

Torch of Falon'Din is great for a Elemental (Fire) Spec mage, I again assert that it is NOT the best staff for a spirit spec mage.

[mr_afk]

p95h wrote...
I tested the rune of devestation and the spirit rune seemed to do damage more quickly. Perhaps this is because I wasn't using spells, but only checking the staffs themselves. I'll redo a test to consider spell usage as well.

Unless your magic is really low, during the third act you should easily be doing several thousand damage for spells and hundreds with your staff? I mean, my end of act 1 mage is already doing that.
And if that's the case the rune of devastation will have a noticeablely larger effect on your damage dealing capacity (as 100+ damage = 10+ damage?). I'm not sure if it pops up as a second number so maybe that's why it seems less powerful? Who knows.

Anyway, what exactly is a spirit spec mage? You can't only be using spirit spells can you? - don't you have..lightning? anything? Because while the 25% extra damage from spirit staves would be pretty nifty (assuming you've got spirit mastery) unless you only use basic staff attacks, a little more base damage would probably be useful for all your spells (including your spirit ones). Well I guess you can do whatever you want to, nobody here is going to force you to pick up another staff, it's just that in terms of damage anyway the allure's crook may actually not be the best for a 'spirit spec' mage overall. Basic attacks maybe - but spell-wise? probably not so much.

Modifié par mr_afk, 20 avril 2011 - 03:47 .

[Bones40]

p95h wrote...

Bones40 wrote...

godlike13 wrote...

p95h wrote...

I tested the Devestation rune vs. the +7 Spirit rune, and the Spirit Rune wins out. The Devestation rune only gives a +10% dmg from base which is 35. so 3.5 dmg incease, vs. a +7 dmg increase for the spirit rune.

Rune of Devastation gives +10% to all dmg. Its not based off of base, but the damage dealt i believe. So if ur basic attack hits for 100, the Rune of Devastation will give u add extra 10. And it applies to all sources of damage i believe, which includes spells.

This is correct.  So say you crit on a chain lightning against a STAGGERED enemy for thousands of damage, the Rune of Devestation will add hundreds of damage points (10% of total damage), and the spirit rune will add...7 points.

This assumes that you've spec'd as an primal mage, rather than a spirit mage. The basic assumption of my argument is a spirit spec. For lightning mages, there are other staffs which are better.

I tested the rune of devestation and the spirit rune seemed to do damage more quickly. Perhaps this is because I wasn't using spells, but only checking the staffs themselves. I'll redo a test to consider spell usage as well.

 Chain Lightning was simply an example.  Substitute Spirit Bolt or even your average autoattack and do the math yourself.

Or just keep using the spirit rune.  I don't really care.

[godlike13]

If a spirit rune is doing more damage than a RoD, then ur basic attack damage is low. As soon as ur attack damage gets to 80 (which it should easily be at by ACTIII), RoD will be greater than a Spirit Rune.

Also even spirit spec mage will need to use other offensive spells then just spirit ones, and even for the spirit spell the 10% is going to be much better than a rune that adds nothing.

And about Spirit Siphon, in my experience it just never made up for the 20% of mana it ate up. But that's me.

I really tried to do a spirit focused mage, believe me i did, but the sad truth is a spirit speced mage just isn't that good in this game, not when compared to the other options.
Which is truly unfortunate, because Spirit is my personal fave, and Walking Bomb is still my favorite spell. But even with that they shortened the range considerably <_<.

Modifié par godlike13, 20 avril 2011 - 07:03 .

[p95h]

godlike13 wrote...

If a spirit rune is doing more damage than a RoD, then ur basic attack damage is low. As soon as ur attack damage gets to 80 (which it should easily be at by ACTIII), RoD will be greater than a Spirit Rune.

Also even spirit spec mage will need to use other offensive spells then just spirit ones, and even for the spirit spell the 10% is going to be much better than a rune that adds nothing.

And about Spirit Siphon, in my experience it just never made up for the 20% of mana it ate up. But that's me.

I really tried to do a spirit focused mage, believe me i did, but the sad truth is a spirit speced mage just isn't that good in this game, not when compared to the other options.
Which is truly unfortunate, because Spirit is my personal fave, and Walking Bomb is still my favorite spell. But even with that they shortened the range considerably <_<.

I found it quite tenable, and I've made several different specs:  Primal/Creation/Spirithealer, Elemental/Creation, Entropy/Primal, Spirit/Creation/Spirithealer.

Each spec plays a bit differently, but I've found them all to be viable. The Rune of Devestation is nice when taking into account spells (Something I didn't do earlier with the staff-only test).

I still believe Allure's Crook to be an extremely viable staff, even into the 3d Act. I've made my case for it, I'll let it stand or fall for each to decide on their own. I recommend at least trying it, because it's a lot cheaper than buying a supposedly better staff, and it is better than Violation imho because of the rune slots.

Here is Liahna's Spec charts (Full Spirit, Full SpiritHealer, Creation for upgraded haste, Force spec for Unshakeable, and Stone Fist and Rock Armor from Primal):



It is quite a viable build.

Modifié par p95h, 20 avril 2011 - 07:22 .

[godlike13]

That seems like a viable support mage, with only 4 attack spells.

BTW since u were going for a spirit mage, did u try Spirit/Entropy?

Also, just throwing this out there. U get the Staff of Violation way too late for it to matter, so Allure Crook is really the only option for a Spit mage besides generic. Staffs are just another way Spirit got the sort end of the stick in this game.

Modifié par godlike13, 20 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[IN1]

>Staffs are just another way Spirit got the sort end of the stick in this game.

Ummm... There is no doubt spirit damage is vastly superior to any other elemental damage in this game (as it is in DAO, for that matter), so I'm not sure what you mean. The way it is itemized and skilled is actually necessary for game balance. If your +spirit dmg soft cap from talents/gear were as high as your +fire cap is, there would be absolutely no reason to use any other element, except vs human mages and shades (if we ignore the fact Holy Smite bypasses shades' spirit immunity, that is).

[godlike13]

Im talking about the available options for Spirit staffs. For act 3 all u have besides the random generic is the Staff of Violation, which u get very late and has no rune slots. Before that there's Allure's crook, but its base is only 35. Again, a staffs base damage is used to calculate all spell damage. So that 35 will be out classed soon into act III.

Certainly Spirit damage is powerful, or can be, but its options are limited. Too limited IMO, that its enjoyment is hindered. U just can't really ever take advantage of it like u can with all the other elements. I get that was they're way of keeping "game balance", but it was done by making the Spirit options limited, and in turn limiting its fun IMO.

Modifié par godlike13, 20 avril 2011 - 02:07 .