119 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

stobie wrote...

No, & I'm not saying he's wrong to ask for help. His reason, that he's the last of his line, however, is questionable, given that he intends to head into eternal chastity.

He could always designate an heir.

[Elessara]

And he could have at least freaking HELPED to kill the Flint Mercenaries ... but no.

[Camenae]

Sammyjb wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Yep. As wishy-washy as Alistair was, he had no qualms about killing Loghain himself. His conviction was limited to whining for the Warden to kill Loghain.

As I just watched/been re-reading A Game of Thrones, this quote was fresh on my mind during the Act III scene:
"If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die."

I believe the quote from the TV premiere was "The man who passes the sentence must be willing to swing the sword."

I used the version of the quote from the book, not the TV premiere.

[stobie]

Elessara wrote...

And he could have at least freaking HELPED to kill the Flint Mercenaries ... but no.

I was thinking - had he wildly declared he was going to seek vengeance, then stormed off, it might have worked a lot better for Elthina to come to you & ask you to help him.  I guess they couldn't do that, because they didn't want him in your party for the first act, but I would have liked that better.  He has this glorious opening, and then hangs around in the chantry.  Half the time, when he's in your party, he's talking like a prince, as he does to Aveline, and then, otherwise, he's preaching.  Elthina basically calls him a flake, and I thought she summed that up pretty well.


Oh!  To clarify, when Sebastian asks you to go with him to the Demon-Worshipping lady's house, that's fine (other than the 'I'm the last of my line' part.  I'd rather he just ask for help rather than give me the, 'I'm too important to die" line, but  I'll overlook that.)  When we first meet him, after his glorious scene, the reality of what he's doing is hiring mercenaries to kill other mercenaries.   He doesn't say, "Call on me at my hang out spot in the Chantry and I'll go along with you."  Worse, after he finds out who did it, and you kill her (after they say she's not a mage, & she busily mages everywhere) - he decides to go pray for her soul. What? The Flint guys had no souls, or just not high class souls? (Granted, later he prays for spiders & shades & everything else...)  

I've tried to like him - I've dragged him along several times.  I even gave him a better eye color...  But there's a bit of dialogue with Fenris, about seeing a boy sacrificed by a blood mage.   He tells Fenris it was some Maker-designed opportunity for Fenris to... I dunno... help others. (That doesn't help the boy much, btw.)   But if you spare Anders (and I'm not stabbing anyone in the back, especially a troubled guy who likes cats.) - then Sebastian vows vengeance on Kirkwall.  Of  course.  No, 'the Maker is giving me an opportunity of some sort.'  He just wants the Bad Mage dead.  That *is* hypocritical.  Also, what did Kirkwall do?  If the Circle isn't responsible for Anders going crazy, and the templars aren't, for squeezing the mages into madness, then why are the common people of Kirkwall supposed to face up to his raging armies, that he has heretofore denied wanting?

Elthina made her choice - could be considered a brave one, to stay in her city despite danger.  He could say she's 'with the Maker,' or he could offer Anders the same chance for redemption that he will later offer either templar or mage (whichever you pick, I guess)     I don't see how that could be construed as anything other than flaky.

Modifié par stobie, 20 avril 2011 - 01:11 .

[Elessara]

@stobie ... I agree that his beliefs are really not as firm as he would like you to believe. Despite what he likes to say, when push comes to shove he'll turn his back on the Chantry's teachings in a heartbeat.

[IanPolaris]

Elessara wrote...

@stobie ... I agree that his beliefs are really not as firm as he would like you to believe. Despite what he likes to say, when push comes to shove he'll turn his back on the Chantry's teachings in a heartbeat.

Yeah, he's somewhat weak willed and a waffler and in this Elthina has him pegged to a tee which is why she doesn't want him back as a brother.

-Polaris

[stobie]

Heh! I hadn't actually thought of it that way, but true enough! I might not agree with Elthina, but I thought her world view - belief system was pretty much intact. I understood what she was saying, why she remained passive, even. (I liked her 'gentle mother' line very much.) I had to pay more attention to the Qun, but I finally got that, too. (and actually agreed with some of it, though I suspect were it to translate into real life, I'd have a collar and sewn-shut lips)

Maybe if they'd gone *farther* with Sebastian being a flake, that would have been interesting. I know there's one scene - perhaps the Leliana one? - where you enter a room, and he's saying we're making a lot of fuss about mages, and in the next breath, he's raging about mages. I then decided he was rather weak and not terribly bright. I did have sympathy for him seeing his mum-figure die, except that I wasn't convinced she *was* his mum-figure, but just the person in power, in the spot he wanted to be. He also had an annoying tendency to turn things back to himself, but that's excusable, in that they all bring their own personal experience into the story. (slavery, mage repression, elf history, pirate history...)

I really think that ultimately, what you think of him depends almost solely on your tolerance for preachiness. His chatter is almost always religious in some way, & I'd have dumped him long ago based on that alone. Even the greatest voice couldn't overcome that. However, if what he's saying isn't intolerably infuriating, he's otherwise a fairly benign character.

[stobie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Elessara wrote...

@stobie ... I agree that his beliefs are really not as firm as he would like you to believe. Despite what he likes to say, when push comes to shove he'll turn his back on the Chantry's teachings in a heartbeat.

Yeah, he's somewhat weak willed and a waffler and in this Elthina has him pegged to a tee which is why she doesn't want him back as a brother.

-Polaris

She didn't want him back, did she? I was confused about that.  In the end,  what *does* he do? (I've always had him rage off because I didn't want to stab Anders)

[The Angry One]

stobie wrote...

She didn't want him back, did she? I was confused about that.  In the end,  what *does* he do? (I've always had him rage off because I didn't want to stab Anders)

Elthina says she doesn't want him back while he's still being a wishy washy idiot. That's not to say she never intended to take him back.
Then again, Elthina defrocks Petrice if you side with her and she still hangs around the Chantry without getting booted out so I guess Elthina's not big on that whole "get out and stay out" thing.

As for what he does after the game, nothing is said if he stays with you (yay for no epilogues).

[Lewie]

I think its at the start of act 2 but when you go into the chantry and eavesdrop, Elthina is telling Sebastian to realise who he has wronged. Following that is her saying 'death is never justice' and Sebastian offers his help to hawke. At any rate having Sebastian adds to the chantry and Elthina and opens the story more. 

Meh, mere niggles just add more flavour. Never a bad thing. 

[JnEricsonx]

I did find it funny how even Fenris was like "I may not like these apostates that much, but I'm not gonna backstab them." Its funny how in my Mage playthrough, even Fenris calls my Hawke the finest mage he's ever met and also, ironically, how "My only friend is a mage." He distrusts MOST mages, but in a one-at-a-time deal, prove yourself to him.

[Lewie]

JnEricsonx wrote...

I did find it funny how even Fenris was like "I may not like these apostates that much, but I'm not gonna backstab them." Its funny how in my Mage playthrough, even Fenris calls my Hawke the finest mage he's ever met and also, ironically, how "My only friend is a mage." He distrusts MOST mages, but in a one-at-a-time deal, prove yourself to him.

Also Sebastian saying who will turn in hawkes friends. Shall we draw lots? 

[Kendar Fleetfoot]

Sebastian I just found was not an enjoyable companion and I agree with the posters who who have commented on his wishy washy flip flopping attitude. If after 10 years you can't make a decision as inportant as joining the Chantry or being a Prince and taking back control of your homeland then me thinks that you have a major problem.

My major problem with his rant re killing Anders or not is if you do kill Anders it's impact on any future content. Its a pretty major choice to kill a long standing DA charachter in Anders or potentially putting your city at war with another. In the end in all 3 playthroughs I decided I'd prefer to have Anders be an option for future content and be at war with Starkhaven than kill him off to avoid a war with Starkhaven. Bring it on Sebastian if you can ever decide (10 years and waiting) that you'll take up the throne of Starkhaven.

[Elessara]

I'm not even really sure how much of a threat the war with Starkhaven is. If the people are content (for the most part) under the rule of Sebastian's cousin then it would probably be difficult for Sebastian to gain the support necessary to take the throne. And even if he does get control of Starkhaven his support will have to be stable enough to convince his people that going to war with currently friendly city-state for the sake of personal revenge is a really good idea.

[stobie]

The Angry One wrote...

stobie wrote...

She didn't want him back, did she? I was confused about that.  In the end,  what *does* he do? (I've always had him rage off because I didn't want to stab Anders)

Elthina says she doesn't want him back while he's still being a wishy washy idiot. That's not to say she never intended to take him back.
Then again, Elthina defrocks Petrice if you side with her and she still hangs around the Chantry without getting booted out so I guess Elthina's not big on that whole "get out and stay out" thing.

As for what he does after the game, nothing is said if he stays with you (yay for no epilogues).

I assumed she really liked him, just thought he had to grow up.  Dear god, I couldn't bring myself to side with Petrice even if didn't keep the save.  It would eat at my soul.   That lispy, snakey voice - UGH!  She has to die.  I thought Elthina was saying, basically, that he has a lot of  'work to do,' kind of like a therapist that doesn't actually say much of anything.  I hope the work he does makes him more interesting.

[Lewie]

Its true he wasn't an enjoyable companion, but his part only and only added to the story. Not being sure of who he was made him annoying to listen to at times. Yet as a 'brother of the chantry' alone he was written well, albeit that he wasn't actually that to his own admission. (lol)

Why the dlc was that i don't know. He would stand better being truly exiled by wrongdoers who made it impossible for him to return home, and the chantry maybe being a part of his life at some point. Full on faith every road (literally) was too much.

Yet, that is who he is, grating and all.

[The Angry One]

stobie wrote...

I assumed she really liked him, just thought he had to grow up.  Dear god, I couldn't bring myself to side with Petrice even if didn't keep the save.  It would eat at my soul.   That lispy, snakey voice - UGH!  She has to die. 

Personally I think she has a certain despicable charm about her.
But look at it this way, if you side with her you get extra opportunities to insult her, see how she gets her title stripped and in the end she probably dies due to Anders' bomb anyway.

I thought Elthina was saying, basically, that he has a lot of  'work to do,' kind of like a therapist that doesn't actually say much of anything.  I hope the work he does makes him more interesting.

I assumed she meant he has to prove that he won't go chasing after something shiny like the easily distracted doofus he is... and preferably learn to not shoot arrows within centimetres of her head..

Modifié par The Angry One, 20 avril 2011 - 03:53 .

[stobie]

I think I'd like him better if he comes out of this embittered. Maybe drunk! He DOES add to the story, and he's actually a fun character to play. (the lady on his crotch is just weird, but his armor is nice!) I'd say he seems to be spouting things he's learned in school, not from life, and so, he sounds childish. I'd rather he had been, say, 18 rather than whatever he is - late 20s? Crazy or not, both Anders & Fenris have long life experience - Isabella, certainly, and Merrill is appropriate for someone sheltered. He just doesn't come off as someone who had The Wild Life, then Turned Good. He comes off, to me, as someone who hasn't seen much, and has a lot of ideas, borrowed from others - all mental, not felt.

[stobie]

The Angry One wrote...

Personally I think she has a certain despicable charm about her.
But look at it this way, if you side with her you get extra opportunities to insult her, see how she gets her title stripped and in the end she probably dies due to Anders' bomb anyway.


I assumed she meant he has to prove that he won't go chasing after something shiny like the easily distracted doofus he is... and preferably learn to not shoot arrows within centimetres of her head..

She is an amazing villain, I'll give her that. I'd never say she was badly done!  She's brilliant - in that I want her dead so much that I resent the Qunari for getting there first.    If Anders blew her up, then I have to say, it might be worth the resulting chaos, and he gets points for doing so.  She's just everything I consider wrong with the world, I guess.  But yes,  I bow to her creators for making someone I want to hit that much.    If  I wanted to play evil, the first thing I'd do would be side with her.

And lol - he did appear to be rather willing to shoot at her.  Forgot that.  There's one point, in one scene, when he totally flips on mages. I *think* it's the Leliana one.  He goes in with, 'What are we bothering with these silly mages for?"  Leliana, in a position of Chantry Power, says, "They're incredibly dangerous & are planning bad things!"  And suddenly, he's on a holy war against mages.  He just seems weak to me.  Not evil, but weak.

[Persephone]

Heather Cline wrote...

I wasn't a fan of Sebastian in Act 3 end scene. His demand that I kill Anders or he would bring an army against me just because I spared him was a bit much. If Sebastian wanted Anders dead so bad he should have done it himself instead of forcing Hawke to make the decision. That's just my personal opinion. Don't force someone else to do your dirty work.

Alistair: "KILL him already!"

[Sabariel]

I found Sebastian rather boring (even his Rival Path was pretty dang boring) and Varric vastly outstrips him in the archery department so... dude stays in the Chantry a lot.

Though, yes, Sebastian has pretty armor and sexy voice.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

DA2 AU:

*Anders' casts 'chantry go boom' spell*
Hawke: Whoa. Petrice was in there, wasn't she?
Anders: Pretty sure.
Hawke: Nice. *fistbumps Anders*

As others have pointed out, he's not a bad guy, just rather mercurial about what he wants. Which makes his superior attitude toward Isabella (and Merrill to a lesser degree, though more in a Jehovah's Witness type) so laughable. And her responses all the more epic.

[nos_astra]

stobie wrote...
She didn't want him back, did she? I was confused about that.  In the end,  what *does* he do? (I've always had him rage off because I didn't want to stab Anders)

By leaving the chantry to seek vengeance himself and helping Hawke he has broken his vows. (The reason he was  using the chanter's board in the first act, I believe.) Elthina wants him back in the chantry, but only fully committed.

When on the rivalry path he resolves to try and retake Starkhaven. (Still needs more money and an army to do that.)
When on the friendship path his home, his surrogate mother and his friends are destroyed so there is no chantry he can return to.

Theory is: No matter what, he will end up in Starkhaven.

[LobselVith8]

Sabariel wrote...

I found Sebastian rather boring (even his Rival Path was pretty dang boring) and Varric vastly outstrips him in the archery department so... dude stays in the Chantry a lot.

So did Varric. "You can't even pretend to be interesting, can you?"

klarabella wrote...

Theory is: No matter what, he will end up in Starkhaven.

Do you think Hawke would help Sebastian reclaim Starkhaven? Would Sebastian offer him a place at the city-state when all is said and done?