119 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Theory is: No matter what, he will end up in Starkhaven.

Do you think Hawke would help Sebastian reclaim Starkhaven? Would Sebastian offer him a place at the city-state when all is said and done?

You mean, pro-mage Hawke who killed Anders? I don't know. Would your Hawke even want that?

If your Hawke is Sebastian's friend, it might be a good thing to help Sebastian on his military campaign and earnhis loyalty. However, I doubt Sebastian would help Hawke in destroying the Chantry. He also wouldn't appreciate if you're  making Starkhaven to target of an Exalted March, I suppose.

It would be interesting dynamic. Your Hawke trying to re-establish the mage underground in Starkhaven, while trying not to offend Starkhaven's ruler. Ooooooooh, plot bunnies all over the place.

I think Varric is wrong. Very interesting.

Modifié par klarabella, 20 avril 2011 - 06:30 .

[Taritu]

I liked Sebastian, he was ok by me. But when he threatened to bring an army against Kirkwall and said "I won't fight you" I desperately wanted an option to just kill him right there and then. It's one thing for him to swear vengeance on Anders and even me, but to want to wipe out the city? One of the main problems of the game is that it didn't let you kill people you had ever reason to do so, who were in your power (Petrice being the other one. Again, why didn't I kill her in act I? She betrayed me, and was clearly a dangerous fanatic and had only one guard. I wouldn't have been a "formidable challenge" for her guardian, I would have walked all over him.) If you don't want people killed, you can arrange the circumstances to make it impossible, but to just make it so Hawke doesn't have the option when it's the logical thing to do. Bleh.

That said, I didn't think Sebastian's reaction was necessarily unrealistic, just Hawke's. Same thing when I let Meredith walk away TWICE in Act III after she'd declared the rite of annulment. Ho Hum, I have you right here with Orsino to back me up in a fight, but I'll let you gather your troops. WTF!?

[TobiTobsen]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

As others have pointed out, he's not a bad guy, just rather mercurial about what he wants. Which makes his superior attitude toward Isabella (and Merrill to a lesser degree, though more in a Jehovah's Witness type) so laughable. And her responses all the more epic.

The dude is just angry because he gets ****blocked by his vows. He is jealous of Hawke becasue he can bed them both and Sebastian has to add another shift of self-flagellation every time when Isabela tries to get into his pants and Merrill asks him stuff about his crotchplate.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 20 avril 2011 - 07:44 .

[nos_astra]

Taritu wrote...
I liked Sebastian, he was ok by me. But when he threatened to bring an army against Kirkwall and said "I won't fight you" I desperately wanted an option to just kill him right there and then. It's one thing for him to swear vengeance on Anders and even me, but to want to wipe out the city?

I will never understand this kind of logic:
Anders is an abomination. He's bound to Vengeance and has to follow his whims. His choice is either to stay in tune with Vengeance, so he can sustain an illusion of sanity or he can admit that something is very wrong with him, which results in blackouts and Vengeance taking over.
He has committed an actual crime and made you his accomplice against your will (by using emotional blackmail).

Yet Hawke would let him live at all cost (like risking the lives of the people of Kirkwall). A few seconds later he would kill Sebastian for ... words.

Sounds incredibly selfish and douche-y to me.

One of the main problems of the game is that it didn't let you kill people you had ever reason to do so, ...

Technically, every time Hawke is poking his/her nose into something that's not his/her business that's a crime. People react, often in an attempt to defend themselves, and Hawke kills them. Extremely shady, to be honest. Hawke is not part of the guard. S/he's a mercenary with good connections in a city where everyone turns a blind eye on his/her illegal activities. Yet many players assume Hawke totally has the moral high ground. So funny.

Modifié par klarabella, 20 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[TobiTobsen]

klarabella wrote...

I will never understand that kind of logic:
Anders is an abomination. He's bound to Vengeance and has to follow his whims. His choice is either to stay in tune with Vengeance, so he can sustain an illusion of sanity, or he can admit that something is very wrong with him, which results in blackouts and Vengeance taking over.
He has committed an actual crime and made you his accomplice against your will (by using emotional blackmail).

Yet Hawke would let him live at all cost (like risking the lives of the people of Kirkwall). A few seconds later he would kill Sebastian for ... words.

Sounds incredibly selfish and douche-y to me.

I somehow think it's always connected to the fact that Sebastian is the preachy chantry boy. Some people seem to harbour an extrem distate against religions and even would kill the character for that.

Look at Leliana. People just poured the blood over the ashes to kill her for talking about the maker and stuff. Some gamers tend to react with a very militant atheism when characters start to talk about faith and organised religions.

[CaolIla]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't mind Sebastian, but he does take over the act 3 scene to an annoying extent

Can you really fault him? Its not like Hawke didn't let his rage be known during Act 2 when faced with something similar.

Also I love him for saying the one sensible thing of that sequence: "We have the person responsible right here."
About the only person present whom I was on the same page with.

I say this with him being one of my least favorites on the team. Though completely worth taking around to hear the jokes about his armor.

klarabella wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
I don't mind Sebastian, but he does take over the act 3 scene to an annoying extent

I feel Anders does the same for the whole game. <_<

I think you are right, I also thought Sebastian reacted like I would react 
"We have the person responsible right here."

But the way he reacts if you spare Anders annoyed me. Well Anders also annoyed me, but not during the whole game. I enjoyed the time while he swallowed the happy pills during act 2.
During the climax he seriously pissed me off though, like having two stupid selfish brats in your team (Sebastian and Anders).

[Taritu]

klarabella wrote...

Taritu wrote...
I liked Sebastian, he was ok by me. But when he threatened to bring an army against Kirkwall and said "I won't fight you" I desperately wanted an option to just kill him right there and then. It's one thing for him to swear vengeance on Anders and even me, but to want to wipe out the city?

I will never understand this kind of logic:
Anders is an abomination. He's bound to Vengeance and has to follow his whims. His choice is either to stay in tune with Vengeance, so he can sustain an illusion of sanity or he can admit that something is very wrong with him, which results in blackouts and Vengeance taking over.
He has committed an actual crime and made you his accomplice against your will (by using emotional blackmail).

Yet Hawke would let him live at all cost (like risking the lives of the people of Kirkwall). A few seconds later he would kill Sebastian for ... words.

Sounds incredibly selfish and douche-y to me.

So?  Actually, I think killing Anders is the right thing to do (I did so in my canon playthrough, and just replayed that one scene to see what happens if you let him live).  But, if I choose not to, why should I let Sebastian leave?  The question is not "is Anders a douche?"  Of course he is.  But if I let him live, why not kill Sebastian.  I mean, I've killed so many people I've lost count, for a lot less than what Sebastian is threatening.  I have reasons to kill him, I can do it, nothing can stop me, why don't I?

[Taritu]

TobiTobsen wrote...

klarabella wrote...

I will never understand that kind of logic:
Anders is an abomination. He's bound to Vengeance and has to follow his whims. His choice is either to stay in tune with Vengeance, so he can sustain an illusion of sanity, or he can admit that something is very wrong with him, which results in blackouts and Vengeance taking over.
He has committed an actual crime and made you his accomplice against your will (by using emotional blackmail).

Yet Hawke would let him live at all cost (like risking the lives of the people of Kirkwall). A few seconds later he would kill Sebastian for ... words.

Sounds incredibly selfish and douche-y to me.

I somehow think it's always connected to the fact that Sebastian is the preachy chantry boy. Some people seem to harbour an extrem distate against religions and even would kill the character for that.

Look at Leliana. People just poured the blood over the ashes to kill her for talking about the maker and stuff. Some gamers tend to react with a very militant atheism when characters start to talk about faith and organised religions.

I romanced Leiliana in most of playthroughs, so it's not always connected to it.  And IRL I don't like atheists, they are as tiresome to me as religious fanatics (which Sebastian is not, though Petrice is).  It's connected to "Sebastian has just threatened to bring an army against the entire city" and I'm not willing to take the chance that it isn't just words, and I can kill him, and let's be honest, I clearly have no qualms about killing people through most of the game, I can't even remember how many people I've killed.  If I have some reason to keep Anders alive, the least I can do is make sure my decision to do so doesn't lead to Sebastian starting a war.  (Also, Sebastian's friend meter was near 0.  I had every single other member of my party at locked 100 friendship.  I was not close to Sebastian.  I did his missions and otherwise I didn't use him, didn't hang with him, etc...)

Again, in my canon playthrough (and so far my only finished game) Anders gets the knife (not for high moral reasons, because the bugger used me.  I trusted him and he used me.  .)  But I don't see why a Hawke who spares Anders shouldn't have the option to kill Sebastian.  Hawke is often not a very nice person.  Likewise Petrice in Act I.  Assume I'm a nasty mercenary who kills people, lots of people.  Why not kill her? I have plenty of reason to do so and nothing to stop me except I can't choose the option.  My party wasn't happy with her either, as I recall, they wouldn't have minded.

Modifié par Taritu, 20 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[nos_astra]

Taritu wrote...
But, if I choose not to, why should I let Sebastian leave?  The question is not "is Anders a douche?"  Of course he is.  But if I let him live, why not kill Sebastian.  I mean, I've killed so many people I've lost count, for a lot less than what Sebastian is threatening.  I have reasons to kill him, I can do it, nothing can stop me, why don't I?

I was envisioning a Hawke who is all "oh Anders, I can't kill you, I'm way too soft-hearted, compassionate and merciful to do that" and then turns around and stabs Sebastian dead, who threatened him/her with something very far-fetched in a moment of grief and desperation.

Of course, you could roleplay a Hawke who would do that. Whatever his/her reasons were, I feel they would be either seflish or cruel (even from a Thedosian point of view). Hm, but why not. Hawke could even feel justified to do it. No one said Hawke has to be self-aware enough to notice.

Edit: On the other hand, the option to kill companions they may want to bring back is probably not a good idea.

Modifié par klarabella, 20 avril 2011 - 09:38 .

[Xewaka]

Camenae wrote...
Sebastian is a seriously disturbed individual. Otherwise how would he have managed disgracing his family with his drinking and WOMANIZING by the age of 13...

In my book, that counts as victory.

Modifié par Xewaka, 20 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[Phoenix_Loftian]

TobiTobsen wrote...

klarabella wrote...

I will never understand that kind of logic:
Anders is an abomination. He's bound to Vengeance and has to follow his whims. His choice is either to stay in tune with Vengeance, so he can sustain an illusion of sanity, or he can admit that something is very wrong with him, which results in blackouts and Vengeance taking over.
He has committed an actual crime and made you his accomplice against your will (by using emotional blackmail).

Yet Hawke would let him live at all cost (like risking the lives of the people of Kirkwall). A few seconds later he would kill Sebastian for ... words.

Sounds incredibly selfish and douche-y to me.

I somehow think it's always connected to the fact that Sebastian is the preachy chantry boy. Some people seem to harbour an extrem distate against religions and even would kill the character for that.

Look at Leliana. People just poured the blood over the ashes to kill her for talking about the maker and stuff. Some gamers tend to react with a very militant atheism when characters start to talk about faith and organised religions.

Sebastian has flaky morals and can acquire an army under the guise of his surname to murder people who had nothing to do with the Chantry incident.

Words have meaning, meaning has power. Sebastian is intent on murdering everyone for what one man did.

Let's not even discuss the fact he betrays Elthina by doing this since she died 'defending Kirkwall' according to her reasons for why she refused to leave.

Sebastian is nothing more than a hypocrite. He is so mired in hypocrisy that it's surprising that some of us here don't see it.

[Perles75]

Taritu wrote...
The question is not "is Anders a douche?"  Of course he is.  But if I let him live, why not kill Sebastian.  I mean, I've killed so many people I've lost count, for a lot less than what Sebastian is threatening.  I have reasons to kill him, I can do it, nothing can stop me, why don't I?

good point... another where the development of the story is faulty

[Wulfram]

Taritu wrote...

So?  Actually, I think killing Anders is the right thing to do (I did so in my canon playthrough, and just replayed that one scene to see what happens if you let him live).  But, if I choose not to, why should I let Sebastian leave?  The question is not "is Anders a douche?"  Of course he is.  But if I let him live, why not kill Sebastian.  I mean, I've killed so many people I've lost count, for a lot less than what Sebastian is threatening.  I have reasons to kill him, I can do it, nothing can stop me, why don't I?

He's a sneaky rogue.  You'd only kill his decoy, while he escaped.

Then everyone would complain that it was a retcon when he turned up in DA3

[Ryzaki]

Seb didn't really do anything to warrent death in my eyes.

Him leaving in a huff (especially when Anders comes back just to skewer himself on my Hawke's sword) isn't really that big of a deal. He was upset. It happens.

[Lyrandori]

I liked Sebastian overall, not as interesting as the others though, but he's alright.

[Chris Readman]

Well I'd kill Sebastian for trying to force me to kill Anders, the person I happened to be romancing.

First of all, do it yourself Sebastian!
Secondly, did you really expect me to kill the person I'm in a relationship with?
And thirdly, threatening to destroy the city that I've been trying to protect for seven years, along with the person I'm probably going to risk my life for, probably warrants a preemptive strike. First to strike, first to win after all.

It may not be the main reason I'd want to kill him, but he was stubborn, rash and kind of bland. I guess he was kind of good looking, and a generally good person, but that is immediately offset by his threat. Seriously Sebastian, even Fenris who'd probably give any opportunity to lock up all the mages (without the last name of Hawke) just kept quiet and followed my Hawke, even when I sided with the mages. He just couldn't put aside his personal issues for the greater good for the moment.

[Ariella]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sammyjb wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Yep. As wishy-washy as Alistair was, he had no qualms about killing Loghain himself. His conviction was limited to whining for the Warden to kill Loghain.

As I just watched/been re-reading A Game of Thrones, this quote was fresh on my mind during the Act III scene:
"If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die."

I believe the quote from the TV premiere was "The man who passes the sentence must be willing to swing the sword."

GRRM is a good writer. As such, it's very easy for him to present something that's bad on a practical level as being noble or honorable.

The reason the modern justice system separates judges and executioner is because if you combine the two, people who are inclined to be merciful will not seek a position of judgement while those who enjoy killing others will.

Or to paraphrase Toby Ziegler after asking a practice debate question to the President who fumbles it:

"Of course you want them [the people who killed and raped your daughter] dead, which is why we don'ty allow grieving fathers to hand out sentencing."

Of course in the GRRM example being given, we aren't talking about a person who was specifically wronged by the party, but the individual who was empowered to deal out justice according to the law. In this case and time period what Ned said and did made sense.

However, Seb is in no position to demand life legally, and just wants it for revenge, which probably would power Vengence/Justice even more, leaving Seb a smear on the pavings.

[n2nw]

berelinde wrote...
Gotta admit it, I'm not crazy about Sebastian. He's the third most handsome human in the game, his voice is made of sex, and he's got a few funny banters where he plays the straight line to others' humor, but he just doesn't do it for me. He has less of a sense of humor than Fenris and is selfish to the point of absurdity. His endgame hysterics detract from the tragedy of the Act 3 surprise, at least in my opinion.

I SO feel your pain.  I was really really looking forward to Sebastian and when I saw his face and heard his voice I was bouncing up and down in anticipation.  I had such high hopes.....

I was so sad when I started taking him around.  His talks with Isabella and Fenris were actually kinda sweet, but everything else he said was self-righteous, pompous, and selfish.  I took him with me somewhere when I was romancing Anders and when he popped off with "he's selfish", I wanted a dialogue that said, "Hello, Kettle?  This is the Pot.  You're black."  Or a 'punch in the face' option would have been good, too.

When I first started with him, I was even ready to accept the so-so ending with him and if I wasn't so OCD, I would never have finished the game with him....and even the OCD in me wished I had chunked him.  The ending was just as boring and cardboard as the rest of his romance.  You would think that when proposing marriage (even a chaste proposal could be romantic or even angsty) that he could at least be a little romantic or even a little bit interesting.  Uck.  Such a waste of good looks and great accent.

[Rifneno]

Chris Readman wrote...

Well I'd kill Sebastian for trying to force me to kill Anders, the person I happened to be romancing.

First of all, do it yourself Sebastian!
Secondly, did you really expect me to kill the person I'm in a relationship with?
And thirdly, threatening to destroy the city that I've been trying to protect for seven years, along with the person I'm probably going to risk my life for, probably warrants a preemptive strike. First to strike, first to win after all.

It may not be the main reason I'd want to kill him, but he was stubborn, rash and kind of bland. I guess he was kind of good looking, and a generally good person, but that is immediately offset by his threat. Seriously Sebastian, even Fenris who'd probably give any opportunity to lock up all the mages (without the last name of Hawke) just kept quiet and followed my Hawke, even when I sided with the mages. He just couldn't put aside his personal issues for the greater good for the moment.

This.  Every last word of it.  If I got to make a single change to the game, it'd probably be the ability to murderknife that douchebag.  Hopefully Merrill could raise his corpse so I could do it again whenever I got bored.

He is such a coward.  He doesn't have the balls to fight Anders himself, nor to go after Flint Company himself.  All he does is **** and complain for other people to do everything for him.  At least Fenris, as much as I despise him, has the guts to fight for what he believes in.  Sebastian is a total coward, tucking tail and running to Starkhaven in hopes he can get an army to kill the same bunch of people that Elthina died wanting to protect so he can tell himself he "avenged her death" by having his men kill random folk in Kirkwall because he himself was too chicken to fight Hawke/Anders.  It's ironic he's religious, atheists in Kirkwall could use him as proof that no benevolent deity would curse mankind with such a foul creature.

[eliesan]

Isabela was good in a fight, although she had pizza pan depth.
But when Sebastian refused to unlock a treasure chest, that did it for me; eye candy or not, he was gone gone.