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[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
That's also nice. As a Seeker, you'd probably be in a great position to undermine the Chantry.

I doubt however that there are mage seekers. It would really restrict player options.

I have no problem imagining the Seekers have mages among them.

The Chantry has been hypocritical in the past, why stop now?

What is hypocritical about it? They have allowed Mages to go about on their own before. If a mage proves to be loyal, why not reward them, and put them in a job they could excel at? After all, if the concept art is to be taken into account, if they would allow a Kossith, they'd probably allow a mage too.

The Kossith is Tal-Vashoth, and possibly a convert (although that seems incredibly unlikely). Plus, it's artwork. nothing canon as of yet.

I'd like examples of these mages that have gone about on their own before.

Wynne, Ines and Wilhelm springs to mind.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Wynne, Ines and Wilhelm springs to mind.

Wynne had to get special permission to leave the tower and she's a senior enchanter.  Presumably Ines is as well since she has a voice and vote at Cumberland.  Wilhelm was a Hero of the Fereldan Revolution and personal friend and mage to the Arl of Redcliff....even THEN he reported regularly and was closely monitered by the circle.  Wilhelm is a special case if there ever was one.

I recall that DG once made it painfully clear that the ONLY legal way a mage can be divorced/allowed free of the chantry is if that mage is also a Grey Warden.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I have no problem imagining the Seekers have mages among them.

I bet they are special ninja mages.

And this is now WANT.

Ninja mages would be win.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Uhm.. Hawke is only doing what you tell him to. If he is exploiting his own people it is becusae YOU made him. And how is Hawke going to build a business with the sum of gold he has? It is only around 150sovereigns for the average player at most. It would probably cost a lot more to start the business without having it go bankrupt too. And I doubt Anders would like the attention it would bring him to upgrade his clinic. And he does give them employ that is, relatively anyway, safe in the Bone Pit. Hawke aggrees to keep the workers at the Bone Pit safe.
And  he may have gathered Power, but he is not nearly powerful enough to oust Meredith. Besides he has no reason to until act 3, which doesn't leave a lot of room for finesse, though he can start the political maneuvering if you side with the mages.

The deep roads expedition is supposed to have made him very wealthy. Wealth he used to buy an estate (one he doesn't even bother to share with his uncle). Very nice waste of money.

Bone mine relatively safe? Several deaths occured and then all were mssacred because genius here couldnt' figure out that if there are baby dragons in the mine, then there is probably a mother close by.

He has no reason to act for 3 years? Really? Varric telling him it's going to inevitably clash. The signs all around him. The political vacuum. The psiralling out of control. And he thinks he doesn't have to act until Orsino's speech distracted him from his meal?
If Hawke had done something in those 3 years instead of being a useless lazy moron, he may have had enough power to challenge Meredith, whose incompetence essentially made almost everyone hate her.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 avril 2011 - 03:06 .

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

I recall that DG once made it painfully clear that the ONLY legal way a mage can be divorced/allowed free of the chantry is if that mage is also a Grey Warden.

-Polaris

And aren't the seekers part of the chantry?

[Ryzaki]

And yeah...Hawke should've *easily* been able to usurp Meredith. Alas. Hawke's plot dumb (and carrying the idiot ball).

[hoorayforicecream]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wynne had to get special permission to leave the tower and she's a senior enchanter.  Presumably Ines is as well since she has a voice and vote at Cumberland.  Wilhelm was a Hero of the Fereldan Revolution and personal friend and mage to the Arl of Redcliff....even THEN he reported regularly and was closely monitered by the circle.  Wilhelm is a special case if there ever was one.

I recall that DG once made it painfully clear that the ONLY legal way a mage can be divorced/allowed free of the chantry is if that mage is also a Grey Warden.

-Polaris

I'd like to think seekers are pretty special. It's not like they'd be divorced from the chantry, they'd just be working for the chantry in the field.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

And yeah...Hawke should've *easily* been able to usurp Meredith. Alas. Hawke's plot dumb (and carrying the idiot ball).

It's almost phenomenal. Sure Shepard has his idiotic moments (putting Legion in the AI core room. Idiot). The Warden too.

But this is just...remarkable.

[TEWR]

Wynne had to ask permission from the First Enchanter, while as far as I can tell Gregoir's opinion on it was nonexistent. And it was to battle the Blight. That's a different scenario on its own. Plus, after the Blight she was outside of the Circle, falling under the direct jurisdiction of Alistair, not the Chantry.

Wilhelm was a member of the Ferelden Circle still at that time. He was a high ranking member allowed to live a life, and he kept in regular contact with the Circle. However, he was also involved with demons. Had the Chantry found out he would've been hunted. Had Shale not beat them to it.

Ines is also a botanist, whom is studying plantlife. There are templars all over the Amaranthine arling, so there is nothing to indicate that she was on her own that whole entire time. Likewise, there is nothing to indicate she was reporting to them every so often. So Ines is not the best example

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I recall that DG once made it painfully clear that the ONLY legal way a mage can be divorced/allowed free of the chantry is if that mage is also a Grey Warden.

-Polaris

And aren't the seekers part of the chantry?

Yes and that's the problem.  They are PART of the Chantry with authority in it.  Mages according to the Justina "interpretation" of "Magic must serve man and never rule over him" can't have any authority over chantry personelle at all (or any non-mage at all).  This is why mages aren't allowed to join the chantry (not even as a lay sister or lay brother) and not allowed to be a templar.

If a mage isn't allowed to even be a lay brother, then I don't see any way the Chantry would permit him (or her) to be a Seeker.  I just don't.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And yeah...Hawke should've *easily* been able to usurp Meredith. Alas. Hawke's plot dumb (and carrying the idiot ball).

It's almost phenomenal. Sure Shepard has his idiotic moments (putting Legion in the AI core room. Idiot). The Warden too.

But this is just...remarkable.

I can justify Shepard with him trolling EDI and there's no room anywhere else. (Still stupid but if EDI can resist Harbinger a Geth shouldn't be a problem).

I can't really jusitfy Hawke as anything other than sheer laziness.

The Warden's moments I tend to overlook for stress and lack of time (had todo all that crap in a year). But Hawke...Hawke really has no excuse.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 avril 2011 - 03:11 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wynne had to ask permission from the First Enchanter, while as far as I can tell Gregoir's opinion on it was nonexistent. And it was to battle the Blight. That's a different scenario on its own. Plus, after the Blight she was outside of the Circle, falling under the direct jurisdiction of Alistair, not the Chantry.

Wilhelm was a member of the Ferelden Circle still at that time. He was a high ranking member allowed to live a life, and he kept in regular contact with the Circle. However, he was also involved with demons. Had the Chantry found out he would've been hunted. Had Shale not beat them to it.

Ines is also a botanist, whom is studying plantlife. There are templars all over the Amaranthine arling, so there is nothing to indicate that she was on her own that whole entire time. Likewise, there is nothing to indicate she was reporting to them every so often. So Ines is not the best example

I wasn't talking about being free of the Chantry. I was talking about being out in the world. Now did they, or did they not get to be that? If yes. Is it unbelieveable to picture the idea of a mage asking permission to join the Seekers. Granted it wouldn't happen often. But it is within reason.

[BanksHector]

IanPolaris wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I recall that DG once made it painfully clear that the ONLY legal way a mage can be divorced/allowed free of the chantry is if that mage is also a Grey Warden.

-Polaris

And aren't the seekers part of the chantry?

Yes and that's the problem.  They are PART of the Chantry with authority in it.  Mages according to the Justina "interpretation" of "Magic must serve man and never rule over him" can't have any authority over chantry personelle at all (or any non-mage at all).  This is why mages aren't allowed to join the chantry (not even as a lay sister or lay brother) and not allowed to be a templar.

If a mage isn't allowed to even be a lay brother, then I don't see any way the Chantry would permit him (or her) to be a Seeker.  I just don't.

-Polaris

I like the idea of playing a Seeker and working for the Chantry, but I doubt many would like that. I do not see why they would have the mage as a Seeker. It would be nice if they did 2 different origins and the game had it where you could try to stop the mages as a Seeker or help the mages as something.

Modifié par BanksHector, 20 avril 2011 - 03:15 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wynne had to ask permission from the First Enchanter, while as far as I can tell Gregoir's opinion on it was nonexistent. And it was to battle the Blight. That's a different scenario on its own. Plus, after the Blight she was outside of the Circle, falling under the direct jurisdiction of Alistair, not the Chantry.

Wilhelm was a member of the Ferelden Circle still at that time. He was a high ranking member allowed to live a life, and he kept in regular contact with the Circle. However, he was also involved with demons. Had the Chantry found out he would've been hunted. Had Shale not beat them to it.

Ines is also a botanist, whom is studying plantlife. There are templars all over the Amaranthine arling, so there is nothing to indicate that she was on her own that whole entire time. Likewise, there is nothing to indicate she was reporting to them every so often. So Ines is not the best example

I wasn't talking about being free of the Chantry. I was talking about being out in the world. Now did they, or did they not get to be that? If yes. Is it unbelieveable to picture the idea of a mage asking permission to join the Seekers. Granted it wouldn't happen often. But it is within reason.

where did I ever say it couldn't happen? Where? Nowhere that's where.

I said it would be hypocritical for the Chantry to allow a mage to be a Seeker, who has authority over others, when as IanPolaris said the Chantry believes otherwise about mages having authority over others.

I never said it couldn't happen. Just if it did, the Chantry is full of hypocrisy.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wynne had to ask permission from the First Enchanter, while as far as I can tell Gregoir's opinion on it was nonexistent. And it was to battle the Blight. That's a different scenario on its own. Plus, after the Blight she was outside of the Circle, falling under the direct jurisdiction of Alistair, not the Chantry.

The normal routine is that the First Enchanter dervives this authority from the Knight Commander, but not always.  Finn had to ask the Acting Knight Commander in WItch HUnt for permission to leave the tower.  Even Orsino can't leave the tower without permission and he's a first enchanter! 

So no, the Knight Commander and the Templars have final say over who goes and who stays in the tower.

Wilhelm was a member of the Ferelden Circle still at that time. He was a high ranking member allowed to live a life, and he kept in regular contact with the Circle. However, he was also involved with demons. Had the Chantry found out he would've been hunted. Had Shale not beat them to it.

And he was monitered by the same circle.  He wasn't free.  Arlen and Wilhelm were breaking the law by researching demons (albeit with the best intent in mind).  Had the Templars ever found out, Wilhelm would have been either killed or forcibly returned to the tower (and then killed).  That's not freedom by any stretch and Wilhelm was a hero of Fereldan with very high ranking noble connections!

Ines is also a botanist, whom is studying plantlife. There are templars all over the Amaranthine arling, so there is nothing to indicate that she was on her own that whole entire time. Likewise, there is nothing to indicate she was reporting to them every so often. So Ines is not the best example

There is no indication that the Templars didn't know precisely where she was and what she was doing.  Indeed the Templars as a whole in DAA show a keen interest in that section of the woods so it's entirely reasonable to think she had permission and a "Templar Grant" (more or less).

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wynne had to ask permission from the First Enchanter, while as far as I can tell Gregoir's opinion on it was nonexistent. And it was to battle the Blight. That's a different scenario on its own. Plus, after the Blight she was outside of the Circle, falling under the direct jurisdiction of Alistair, not the Chantry.

Wilhelm was a member of the Ferelden Circle still at that time. He was a high ranking member allowed to live a life, and he kept in regular contact with the Circle. However, he was also involved with demons. Had the Chantry found out he would've been hunted. Had Shale not beat them to it.

Ines is also a botanist, whom is studying plantlife. There are templars all over the Amaranthine arling, so there is nothing to indicate that she was on her own that whole entire time. Likewise, there is nothing to indicate she was reporting to them every so often. So Ines is not the best example

I wasn't talking about being free of the Chantry. I was talking about being out in the world. Now did they, or did they not get to be that? If yes. Is it unbelieveable to picture the idea of a mage asking permission to join the Seekers. Granted it wouldn't happen often. But it is within reason.

where did I ever say it couldn't happen? Where? Nowhere that's where.

I said it would be hypocritical for the Chantry to allow a mage to be a Seeker, who has authority over others, when as IanPolaris said the Chantry believes otherwise about mages having authority over others.

I never said it couldn't happen. Just if it did, the Chantry is full of hypocrisy.

Considering they already summon demons and use bloodmagic that's not any groundbreaking news.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
I can't really jusitfy Hawke as anything other than sheer laziness.

The Warden's moments I tend to overlook for stress and lack of time (had todo all that crap in a year). But Hawke...Hawke really has no excuse.

Plus lack of sleep with nightmares and all.

But I think that's part of the problem. He became a useless wannabe noble, with too much luxury and comfort. Ibn Khaldun is proven right. Luxury spells the end of progress and effort. Of course he'd be berating Hawke for not using the obvious 'Asabiyya (tribal / group solidarity) of the Fereldens to his advantage.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 avril 2011 - 03:16 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Uhm.. Hawke is only doing what you tell him to. If he is exploiting his own people it is becusae YOU made him. And how is Hawke going to build a business with the sum of gold he has? It is only around 150sovereigns for the average player at most. It would probably cost a lot more to start the business without having it go bankrupt too. And I doubt Anders would like the attention it would bring him to upgrade his clinic. And he does give them employ that is, relatively anyway, safe in the Bone Pit. Hawke aggrees to keep the workers at the Bone Pit safe.
And  he may have gathered Power, but he is not nearly powerful enough to oust Meredith. Besides he has no reason to until act 3, which doesn't leave a lot of room for finesse, though he can start the political maneuvering if you side with the mages.

The deep roads expedition is supposed to have made him very wealthy. Wealth he used to buy an estate (one he doesn't even bother to share with his uncle). Very nice waste of money.

Bone mine relatively safe? Several deaths occured and then all were mssacred because genius here couldnt' figure out that if there are baby dragons in the mine, then there is probably a mother close by.

He has no reason to act for 3 years? Really? Varric telling him it's going to inevitably clash. The signs all around him. The political vacuum. The psiralling out of control. And he thinks he doesn't have to act until Orsino's speech distracted him from his meal?
If Hawke had done something in those 3 years instead of being a useless lazy moron, he may have had enough power to challenge Meredith, whose incompetence essentially made almost everyone hate her.

He bought the mansion to give his mother the home of her childhood back. I would have done the same, and not give it a second thought.
Hawke has never encountered Dragons before. How the flying hell was he supposed to know that the big ass dragon he already killed was not actually the mother? Dragons have been thought to be extinct for a very long time, so how should Hawke know the specifics within Dragon zoology?
If there had been a possibility to act sooner the game would have allowed. The political climate immediately following the Qunari was stable, if tense, and Meredith was in solid power. The whole situation in Kirkwall doesn't spiral out of control until the start of act 3, hence why the act even starts. And he CAN move against Meredith, but you are complaining about Hawke not being able to defy the game mechanics themselves.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wynne had to ask permission from the First Enchanter, while as far as I can tell Gregoir's opinion on it was nonexistent. And it was to battle the Blight. That's a different scenario on its own. Plus, after the Blight she was outside of the Circle, falling under the direct jurisdiction of Alistair, not the Chantry.

I think it's more accurate to say that the First Enchanter with KC Gregoire's direct consent (he's standing right there!) loans the Grey Wardens (and you, the PC, as Acting Warden Commander of Fereldan) the services of Wynne's services as Senior Enchanter for the duration of the blight.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Hawke as a wealthy nobleman (of House Amell) could and SHOULD have moved to stop Meredith from seizing complete political power immediately after the Viscount's death if by no nother means then by submitting his own name as Viscount and trading in on his wealth and prestigue as Champion of Kirkwall.

It might not have worked immediately, but at least the Templars would not have been able to run roughshod (against Chantry practice and law I might add) over the city's civic authorities.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wynne had to ask permission from the First Enchanter, while as far as I can tell Gregoir's opinion on it was nonexistent. And it was to battle the Blight. That's a different scenario on its own. Plus, after the Blight she was outside of the Circle, falling under the direct jurisdiction of Alistair, not the Chantry.

Wilhelm was a member of the Ferelden Circle still at that time. He was a high ranking member allowed to live a life, and he kept in regular contact with the Circle. However, he was also involved with demons. Had the Chantry found out he would've been hunted. Had Shale not beat them to it.

Ines is also a botanist, whom is studying plantlife. There are templars all over the Amaranthine arling, so there is nothing to indicate that she was on her own that whole entire time. Likewise, there is nothing to indicate she was reporting to them every so often. So Ines is not the best example

I wasn't talking about being free of the Chantry. I was talking about being out in the world. Now did they, or did they not get to be that? If yes. Is it unbelieveable to picture the idea of a mage asking permission to join the Seekers. Granted it wouldn't happen often. But it is within reason.

where did I ever say it couldn't happen? Where? Nowhere that's where.

I said it would be hypocritical for the Chantry to allow a mage to be a Seeker, who has authority over others, when as IanPolaris said the Chantry believes otherwise about mages having authority over others.

I never said it couldn't happen. Just if it did, the Chantry is full of hypocrisy.

Not an attack on you, more a rhethorical question leading to my next question.

Anyway. As we all know that particular stanze "magic is made to serve man and not to rule him" can be interpreted in many different ways. Most of the Chantry seem to interpret it as Mages may never attain rank. Others in the Chantry are of the impression that Mind Control is illegal. There are many different interpretations.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The normal routine is that the First Enchanter dervives this authority from the Knight Commander, but not always.  Finn had to ask the Acting Knight Commander in WItch HUnt for permission to leave the tower.  Even Orsino can't leave the tower without permission and he's a first enchanter! 

So no, the Knight Commander and the Templars have final say over who goes and who stays in the tower.

I just wasn't sure if KC Gregoir had any say over it. Never said he didn't. As for Finn, he asked the acting KC to go into the basement. He had been given permission to leave before Witch Hunt began.

And he was monitered by the same circle.  He wasn't free.  Arlen and Wilhelm were breaking the law by researching demons (albeit with the best intent in mind).  Had the Templars ever found out, Wilhelm would have been either killed or forcibly returned to the tower (and then killed).  That's not freedom by any stretch and Wilhelm was a hero of Fereldan with very high ranking noble connections!

Never said he was free. I said he could live a life. I agree they had good intentions, and should've been allowed to continue. Especially since Kitty was trapped for 30 years. If you can trap a demon somewhere, you can study it without fear.

There is no indication that the Templars didn't know precisely where she was and what she was doing.  Indeed the Templars as a whole in DAA show a keen interest in that section of the woods so it's entirely reasonable to think she had permission and a "Templar Grant" (more or less).

-Polaris

I know. I think you're making me out to be the enemy in this whole entire post. I forgot about the side quests in the Wending Wood for the Chantry, so I agree the Templars may have allowed her to be there. But who knows?

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Plus lack of sleep with nightmares and all.

But I think that's part of the problem. He became a useless wannabe noble, with too much luxury and comfort. Ibn Khaldun is proven right. Luxury spells the end of progress and effort. Of course he'd be berating Hawke for not using the obvious 'Asabiyya (tribal / group solidarity) of the Fereldens to his advantage.

Yeah I forgot about Archie stalking the Warden's dreams.

Which is odd because that wasn't in character at all for my Hawke. And it seems odd when after the time skip everyone's looking at you to lead them. Why the heck weren't they looking at Hawke before? 

Heck worst part is Hawke didn't even need the Fereldans. The Kirkwall nobles are the ones who owed their lives to him. Everyone prefered Hawke over Meredith and not once is does Hawke seem to take that seriously. (Other than a "I should be vicount!" and then acting like a cowed puppy when Meredith goes "no." ) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 avril 2011 - 03:23 .

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

And aren't the seekers part of the chantry?

Yes and that's the problem.  They are PART of the Chantry with authority in it.  Mages according to the Justina "interpretation" of "Magic must serve man and never rule over him" can't have any authority over chantry personelle at all (or any non-mage at all).  This is why mages aren't allowed to join the chantry (not even as a lay sister or lay brother) and not allowed to be a templar.

If a mage isn't allowed to even be a lay brother, then I don't see any way the Chantry would permit him (or her) to be a Seeker.  I just don't.

-Polaris

So you don't see a difference between a secret orgainization and being a common worker?

If a mage isn't allowed to even be a baker, then I don't see any way the Chantry would permit him (or her) to be a Warden. I just don't.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You both realize you can actually donate to the Fereldan refugees in Darktown, right?

Wouldn't it be better served to use the money to, oh I don't know, build a more hygienic clinic, or a school for Ferelden children, or some kind of business that employs some of them without high risk of death (he is exploiting his own damn people!). 

And that, would have aided him in establishing political connections and legitimacy amongst the populace, which could have been part of a broader strategy to actually use the power he has responsibly and for a purpose. Like removing Meredith.

But no, too busy staring at the naked man accross the window.

Uhm.. Hawke is only doing what you tell him to. If he is exploiting his own people it is becusae YOU made him. And how is Hawke going to build a business with the sum of gold he has? It is only around 150sovereigns for the average player at most.

Probably the same way Hawke was able to obtain the Amell manor and refurnish it with the wealth he obtained from the Deep Roads expedition.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It would probably cost a lot more to start the business without having it go bankrupt too. And I doubt Anders would like the attention it would bring him to upgrade his clinic. And he does give them employ that is, relatively anyway, safe in the Bone Pit. Hawke aggrees to keep the workers at the Bone Pit safe.

Hawke seems to be doing a bad job since he always comes after people are getting killed in the Bone Pit. Hubert seems to have more a hand in managing the mine than Hawke does. In fact, virtually everyone in his employment seems to be dead because of the High Dragon with the last mission we have for the Bone Pit in the Mine Massacre. 

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And  he may have gathered Power, but he is not nearly powerful enough to oust Meredith. Besides he has no reason to until act 3, which doesn't leave a lot of room for finesse, though he can start the political maneuvering if you side with the mages.

That's because Hawke doesn't do anything. For instance, the nobles offer support for Hawke and he never works with them to make any action to oust Meredith from her position as the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I have no problem imagining the Seekers have mages among them.

I bet they are special ninja mages.  

I believe the rogues have the exclusivity to being the closest we ever come to ninjas in Thedas.