353 réponses à ce sujet

[ddv.rsa]

It's still technically blood magic. A magic ritual powered by blood.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm certain the Andrastians will love learning about the Joining: it involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. Blood and magic... so I can see why they keep things about their order clandestine in a continent that has very conversative views on magic, and particularly magic that involves blood.

You don't need to tell everyone about the Joining - though it can't be all that secret actually, since the Mages help prepare for it.  There's no good reason to keep the fact that the Archdemon will respawn if someone other than a Warden kills it, and that Wardens dream of the the Archdemon during a blight, secret

I didn't realize King Cailan was a Grey Warden making decisions that Loghain openly opposed, and I didn't realize that the Wardens should have known that intelligent darkspawn would launch a sneak attack against Vigil's Keep. What I do know is that the Grey Wardens stopped the last four Blights from destroying all of Thedas.

Duncan assures Cailan that "the plan will work", and was entitled to refuse to take part in a battle if he judged it a poor choice to fight.  While losing the new base of your order to a surprise attack from people you're supposed to be able to sense coming is just embarassing.

Most of the blights required the armies of many nations to stop and went on for years.  The world not being destroyed yet is a poor claim to competency

Going into the Deep Roads where the darkspawn have commandeered the Great Thaigs and thaigs that spanned the continent of Thedas should address that there will always be a risk when Grey Wardens venture there for any reason.

Sure it's dangerous.  But they're supposed to be the people best able to handle the danger, rather than being saved by a muggle like the Champion.

I can see how you can blame King Cailan or Teyrn Loghain about Ostagar, but blaming the Wardens is pushing it when Knight-Commander Greagoir turns down the idea of more than seven mages fighting the darkspawn and Cailan has the final say over the armies of Ferelden.

As I said, Duncan ultimately endorses the decision to fight at Ostagar.

Modifié par Wulfram, 19 avril 2011 - 08:40 .

[Torax]

ddv.rsa wrote...

It's still technically blood magic. A magic ritual powered by blood.

Blood doesn't necessarily power said spells. It's just a component. As Finn would say "it's a gray area". So for example if to track with a Phylactery they use the vial but also they need Lyrium to fuel the scrying/tracking spell? Then it's not blood magic. Just like it is possible that the Enchanters need lots of Lyrium to help to prepare the the blood that the recruits will eventually drink. As long as no one is slitting their wrists to fuel the magic then it's not blood magic. Before you are ported by the ex-stundent of Quintan, he has to slit his wrists to fuel the spell then he uses her blood to hone in her location.

Modifié par Torax, 19 avril 2011 - 08:53 .

[zeejay21]

You're suggesting a World War in all of Thedas.

That would make a very epic game.

[White_Buffalo94]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

The ending of Dragon Age 2 had me a little more information as to the extent of the conflict that is sweeping over the world of Dragon Age.  From what Cassandra said, I gathered that every circle had rebelled and The Templars had broken away from the Chantry.

This has me wondering about Ferelden, The Quanari in Par Vollen, The Emperium and The Free Marches.  

Ferelden, in my game Alistar was ruler. And during his meeting with Hawke he mentioned a boarder dispute with a neighboring nation (can't remember which one).  Alistar said that tensions were heating up and said it might come to war with said nation. Possible foreshadowing?

Quanari and The Free Marches. In the famous words of The Arishok "We'll be baaack."  Even if you murdered the guy, the will of The Qun still demands the "clensing" of Kirkwall.  If the Quarai attack Kirkwall and finish what the Arishok started then wouldn't the Free Marches rise up to the defense of the city? Remember what that noble person said "You ARE starting a War with the Free Marches!' 

Also with the Mages and Templars going at it, could The Emperium get involved?  From Fenris I gathered that basically The Emperium is made up of mages. Don't you think they might sympithise with The Circle Mages?

Maybe I'm blowing this out of proportion, IDK. At the very least it's food for thought. 

Qunari will almost certainly wage war. It was foreshadowed by both Arishok and Sten. As for the "cleansing of Kirkwall", Idk if they will continue that venture, because that was due in response to Isabela stealing the Tome of Koslun, which they get back.
The Imperium will no doubt shelter all rogue mages and will be headstrong in the war with Orlais which will definitely happen sometime.
Plus, Ferelden only neighbors the Dales/Orlais and the unexplored southern wastes. So It is Orlais you were talking about

[ddv.rsa]

Torax wrote...

Blood doesn't necessarily power said spells. It's just a component. As Finn would say "it's a gray area". So for example if to track with a Phylactery they use the vial but also they need Lyrium to fuel the scrying/tracking spell? Then it's not blood magic. Just like it is possible that the Enchanters need lots of Lyrium to help to prepare the the blood that the recruits will eventually drink. As long as no one is slitting their wrists to fuel the magic then it's not blood magic. Before you are ported by the ex-stundent of Quintan, he has to slit his wrists to fuel the spell then he uses her blood to hone in her location.

I'm not sure I buy that. Blood magic just means it's powered by blood - why does it matter if you slit your rist, stab someone, or have a vial ready?  Even if blood is only one component in a spell, that still means blood is at least partially what powers it. Blood magic.

As for using phylacteries to track people, I would call that blood magic. Blood magic is very easily abused,  hence the stigma, but it does have its uses.

[Fallstar]

ddv.rsa wrote...

It's still technically blood magic. A magic ritual powered by blood.

So? To be honest, using blood magic paled in comparison to the threat of a blight. If that was blood magic, the first blight would have overwhelmed Thedas without the use of blood magic.

[Torax]

blood magic is blood magic when people have to die to power said spells. Blood being a component is like if a herb is a component. Why it doesn't follow the same line. But if you have to sacrifice your life or others to even power the spell then it's truly blood magic. You may not recognize that but it's how it's defined in regards to the lore references. So for example the amulet Flemeth had supposedly had a piece of her in it. If it was blood then is that blood magic to? All that it took was Merrill reciting a prayer. No slitting wrists at all. But blood may have been in the amulet...

Modifié par Torax, 19 avril 2011 - 09:08 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Qunari in Kirkwall were just there for the relic. They
were bound by duty to the Qun to retrieve it. From what I was able to tell, the
decision to attack Kirkwall at that time was the Arishok's call. I don't know
that the incident with Hawke would have changed much for the Qunari in the
grand scheme of things. They always planned to return and while killing their
Commander in Chief might accelerate the process, it wouldn't be the root cause
of a war between the Free Marches and Qunari.

 

The Chantry is not the darkspawn, they don't serve as some
monolithic big bad of the franchise. The state of the world and the place of
the Chantry in it is inspired by real life, so you probably aren't going to be
given a straightforward task of "kill the evil Chantry and destroy their
Cathedral."

 

If you wanted to dismantle every institution with evil in
it's past then you'd have to destroy every nation in Thedas. Much like in real
life.

 

The Tevinter Imperium appear to be the nation that is most
in decline based on what we’ve heard of their society. I don't really think
that Fenris is an especially unreliable witness regarding the Qunari/Tevinter
conflict. From what we hear the Qunari aren't interested in bringing their full
might to bear on the rest of the world again right now and the Tevinters are
supposed to be hopelessly corrupt and losing territory little by little.From what we've been told about the Magisters, they don't care about mages in the rest of the Thedas. They don't even care about mages in the Imperium. Tevinter is supposed to be rulled by a ruthless "dog eat dog" emtnality where the Magisters seem to fight and struggle against each other more than anything else.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 avril 2011 - 09:15 .

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
 
I'm certain the Andrastians will love learning about the Joining: it involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. Blood and magic... so I can see why they keep things about their order clandestine in a continent that has very conversative views on magic, and particularly magic that involves blood.

The wardens existed before Andraste. Blood magic wasn't a taboo at all during the first blight.

And how does this address the fact that the Wardens are keeping the Joining a secret from the Andrastian nations, which was the discussion at hand?

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I can see how you can blame King Cailan or Teyrn Loghain about Ostagar, but blaming the Wardens is pushing it when Knight-Commander Greagoir turns down the idea of more than seven mages fighting the darkspawn and Cailan has the final say over the armies of Ferelden.

One glaring incompetence is that they haven't got a clear tactic in how to take archdemons down. Unless running up a tower and taking a leap of faith is that.

Considering they have no means of travelling in the sky to attack the Archdemons and are dealing with an enemy that can produce hundreds or thousands of darkspawn from one Broodmother when they have a finite number of people in their order, I respectfully disagree.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Wasn't there a reference somewhere in the game to somebody being nervous about a spell they were casting being blood magic or not? I can't remember if it has anything to do with the Joining but I seem to recall somebody saying that "Blood doesn't actually power the spell so it should be OK. but this is a fine line we're walking and the Chantry might disagree." My guess is that the Joining might be veiwed similarly but the reason they'd keep it a secret is probably more about how it's dangerous.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 avril 2011 - 09:45 .

[Rifneno]

Honestly I think the Fifth Blight will be the last one that's a big deal.  Even if the player characters don't figure out some way to simply poof the darkspawn taint forever.  Consider: blackpowder, or gunpowder as it's called in modern times, has been invented and primitive cannons are in use.  It takes hundreds of years for the darkspawn to find an old god to taint.  It was 400 years since the  Fourth and Fifth Blights and the Fifth Blight was triggered by a sentient darkspawn, the Architect, hoping to stop future ones.  This indicates it will likely be at least several hundred years before the next one.  What am I getting at?  Technology advances.   The next darkspawn horde and archdemon will probably face something their predecessors never did.  Guns.  Even early firearms would drastically change the way the battle plays out.  And the Seventh Blight?  If it's hundreds of years after that... how do you think an archdemon would do against a squadron of F-22's?  Spoiler: Archdemon is totally screwed.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The wardens existed before Andraste. Blood magic wasn't a taboo at all during the first blight.

And how does this address the fact that the Wardens are keeping the Joining a secret from the Andrastian nations, which was the discussion at hand?

They kept it safe even then. It has always been a secret. It was about their organization, you were the one who involved the chantry. Edit: So I don't see "but it is blood magic and people won't like it" as a good excuse.

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

One glaring incompetence is that they haven't got a clear tactic in how to take archdemons down. Unless running up a tower and taking a leap of faith is that.

Considering they have no means of travelling in the sky to attack the Archdemons and are dealing with an enemy that can produce hundreds or thousands of darkspawn from one Broodmother when they have a finite number of people in their order, I respectfully disagree.

They could have thought about that, taken some pointers from the Nevarran dragon hunters that almost wiped them (Edit: dragons) out perhaps? That they have no clear plan when it comes to their Raison d'être is very odd.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 19 avril 2011 - 09:54 .

[Torax]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Wasn't there a reference somewhere in the game to somebody being nervous about a spell they were casting being blood magic or not? I can't remember if it has anything to do with the Joining but I seem to recall somebody saying that "Blood doesn't actually power the spell so it should be OK. but this is a fine line we're walking and the Chantry might disagree." My guess is that the Joining might be veiwed similarly but the reason they'd keep it a secret is probably more about how it's dangerous.

Finn during the Witch Hunt DLC needed a little bit of Ariane's Blood to find the Lights in the Cadash Thaig. He refers to it as a gray area because blood is a component but does not power the spell. As I've said before I doubt the joining is a secret more than it's hard to keep recruits constant. I wager many of the Rulers may know. For example I'm sure Maric knew. This is just something they don't like advertised so they actually get recruits at all. Especially if a Blight is not on the horizon.

Modifié par Torax, 19 avril 2011 - 09:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I doubt anyone but the Qunari are going to get cannons anytime soon. The QUnari aren't exactly forthcoming in negotiations regarding blackpowder.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Filament wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm certain the Andrastians will love learning about the Joining: it involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. Blood and magic... so I can see why they keep things about their order clandestine in a continent that has very conversative views on magic, and particularly magic that involves blood.[/quote]

The way they use Phylacteries is also a form of blood magic-- it's not like Wardens are sacrificing the blood of the unwilling here to power the ritual. [/quote]

That isn't going to make much of a difference to the Chantry of Andraste.

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm certain the Andrastians will love learning about the Joining: it involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. Blood and magic... so I can see why they keep things about their order clandestine in a continent that has very conversative views on magic, and particularly magic that involves blood.[/quote]

You don't need to tell everyone about the Joining - though it can't be all that secret actually, since the Mages help prepare for it.  There's no good reason to keep the fact that the Archdemon will respawn if someone other than a Warden kills it, and that Wardens dream of the the Archdemon during a blight, secret [/quote]

People would ask how they know such things, and it would inevitably go back to the fact that the Joining creates Wardens from the blood of darkspawn and magic, and the Andrastian nations are conservative about magic and specifically magic that involves blood. It's something that can be used against the Wardens quite easily if it was common knowledge among the people, particularly when Andrastians are willing to kill mages over incidents that don't involve them because of their ignorance (as Wynne addresses). Revealing that Wardens drink the specifically prepared blood of an Archdemon and a darkspawn would be the very thing Loghain could have easily used to turn the people of Ferelden against the Wardens when he charged that the Wardens betrayed King Cailan.

As for how clandestine the Joining is, we have no idea whether the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars is aware about the Joining, though.

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize King Cailan was a Grey Warden making decisions that Loghain openly opposed, and I didn't realize that the Wardens should have known that intelligent darkspawn would launch a sneak attack against Vigil's Keep. What I do know is that the Grey Wardens stopped the last four Blights from destroying all of Thedas.[/quote]

Duncan assures Cailan that "the plan will work", and was entitled to refuse to take part in a battle if he judged it a poor choice to fight.  While losing the new base of your order to a surprise attack from people you're supposed to be able to sense coming is just embarassing. [/quote]

King Cailan has the final say, and doesn't even heed the Warden-Commander's concerns about the Blight or the Archdemon. He doesn't take the situation seriously, and Duncan concedes this point to the protagonist. The Wardens were kicked out of the nation when Sophia Dryden started an insurrection against King Arland, and were only recently allowed back in. King Cailan likes the Wardens, and Duncan has to walk a fine line in making sure that that the very few Wardens in Ferelden aren't kicked out again.

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

Most of the blights required the armies of many nations to stop and went on for years.  The world not being destroyed yet is a poor claim to competency [/quote]

I respectfully disagree. The Wardens got other nations involved to stop the Blight more than once, and you seem to think that preventing the destruction of Thedas is a "poor claim" to competency; I couldn't disagree more on this issue.

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Going into the Deep Roads where the darkspawn have commandeered the Great Thaigs and thaigs that spanned the continent of Thedas should address that there will always be a risk when Grey Wardens venture there for any reason.[/quote]

Sure it's dangerous.  But they're supposed to be the people best able to handle the danger, rather than being saved by a muggle like the Champion. [/quote]

Nathaniel is aided by Hawke and his moiety crew, as they all fight the darkspawn, and Nathaniel still continues his venture into the Deep Roads without Hawke or his crew.

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I can see how you can blame King Cailan or Teyrn Loghain about Ostagar, but blaming the Wardens is pushing it when Knight-Commander Greagoir turns down the idea of more than seven mages fighting the darkspawn and Cailan has the final say over the armies of Ferelden.[/quote]

As I said, Duncan ultimately endorses the decision to fight at Ostagar. [/quote]

Like I said, King Cailan is the final arbiter on what his armies are going to do, and I don't see how you can blame Duncan when Cailan doesn't even take Duncan's concerns about the darkspawn seriously. Duncan addressed that Arl Eamon's forces could be there within the week, and Cailan brushed it aside.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

Honestly I think the Fifth Blight will be the last one that's a big deal.  Even if the player characters don't figure out some way to simply poof the darkspawn taint forever.  Consider: blackpowder, or gunpowder as it's called in modern times, has been invented and primitive cannons are in use.  It takes hundreds of years for the darkspawn to find an old god to taint.  It was 400 years since the  Fourth and Fifth Blights and the Fifth Blight was triggered by a sentient darkspawn, the Architect, hoping to stop future ones.  This indicates it will likely be at least several hundred years before the next one.  What am I getting at?  Technology advances.   The next darkspawn horde and archdemon will probably face something their predecessors never did.  Guns.  Even early firearms would drastically change the way the battle plays out.  And the Seventh Blight?  If it's hundreds of years after that... how do you think an archdemon would do against a squadron of F-22's?  Spoiler: Archdemon is totally screwed.

I'm pretty sure that we aren't getting such huge technological advances in Dragon Age's story. Qunari have been using gunpowder for hundreds of years, they haven't developed it tanks or anything yet. Not only that humans and dwarves have the ability to use destructive power that wasn't available in real history. Lyrium and magic spells are far more effective than anything in medieval times and more so than many things in following centuries.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And how does this address the fact that the Wardens are keeping the Joining a secret from the Andrastian nations, which was the discussion at hand?

They kept it safe even then. It has always been a secret. It was about their organization, you were the one who involved the chantry. Edit: So I don't see "but it is blood magic and people won't like it" as a good excuse.

It's a good excuse considering the Wardens want to operate in the Andrastian nations without incident from the general populace.

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering they have no means of travelling in the sky to attack the Archdemons and are dealing with an enemy that can produce hundreds or thousands of darkspawn from one Broodmother when they have a finite number of people in their order, I respectfully disagree.

They could have thought about that, taken some pointers from the Nevarran dragon hunters that almost wiped them (Edit: dragons) out perhaps? That they have no clear plan when it comes to their Raison d'être is very odd.

They have no clear plan? The Wardens were in Orlais, and there were only three Wardens avaliable to fight the Archdemon in Denerim. They did what they could do with limited resources. And considering that the weapon of choice passed down to Bevan by his dragon slaying grandfather was a sword, I don't see anything to indicate that the dragon-slayers had any other tools avaliable to destroy dragons...

[Torax]

Maybe back when they were dragon slayers they just had much smaller buildings. The taller towers were added later. Heh.

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt anyone but the Qunari are going to get cannons anytime soon. The QUnari aren't exactly forthcoming in negotiations regarding blackpowder.

Anders' "potion" recipe disagrees.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm pretty sure that we aren't getting such huge technological advances in Dragon Age's story. Qunari have been using gunpowder for hundreds of years, they haven't developed it tanks or anything yet. Not only that humans and dwarves have the ability to use destructive power that wasn't available in real history. Lyrium and magic spells are far more effective than anything in medieval times and more so than many things in following centuries.

We aren't getting huge technology leaps because we're staying in a specific age (aka century).  If the next archdemon sprouts in 500 years, it'd be bad writing to claim no technological advancements were made.  It's just that we won't see that Blight because this series is about the Dragon Age, not the Enchantment Age or what have you.  Doesn't mean it wouldn't realistically go that way.

Also, magic and other such fantasty devices would only serve to advance technology faster.  The more resources at one's disposal, the more you can do.  Thedas has many additional resources at its disposal than our real world.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

They kept it safe even then. It has always been a secret. It was about their organization, you were the one who involved the chantry. Edit: So I don't see "but it is blood magic and people won't like it" as a good excuse.

It's a good excuse considering the Wardens want to operate in the Andrastian nations without incident from the general populace.

My point is that their very organization was flawed from the start. If people knew what the joining entailed and why it was necessary to defeat the archdemon, they'd have gotten used to it. They kept it secret for little reason.

Herr Uhl wrote...

They could have thought about that, taken some pointers from the Nevarran dragon hunters that almost wiped them (Edit: dragons) out perhaps? That they have no clear plan when it comes to their Raison d'être is very odd.

They have no clear plan? The Wardens were in Orlais, and there were only three Wardens avaliable to fight the Archdemon in Denerim. They did what they could do with limited resources. And considering that the weapon of choice passed down to Bevan by his dragon slaying grandfather was a sword, I don't see anything to indicate that the dragon-slayers had any other tools avaliable to destroy dragons...

Not tools, but methods. I think that "running up on tower and jump as dragon flies by" isn't what they built their reputation around.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 19 avril 2011 - 10:08 .

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I wouldn't exactly praise the competence of the Tevinters. They're basically the moribund Byzantine empire, locked in a duel with the Turks. And they're losing, little by little.

Considering the relative strength of Tevinter and the Qunari, I'd say losing only little by little is competance.

-Polaris

you do realize the Qunari don't really give a **** about Tevinter? They're only defending Seheron because that's all they want. If they wanted to take Tevinter they would've done so already.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I wouldn't exactly praise the competence of the Tevinters. They're basically the moribund Byzantine empire, locked in a duel with the Turks. And they're losing, little by little.

Considering the relative strength of Tevinter and the Qunari, I'd say losing only little by little is competance.

-Polaris

you do realize the Qunari don't really give a **** about Tevinter? They're only defending Seheron because that's all they want. If they wanted to take Tevinter they would've done so already.

That's what Fenris claims.  I am not willing to take anything Fenris says about Tevinter at absolute face value and even Fenris would aknowledge (I think) that Tevinter is well run and competant (but evil).

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

People would ask how they know such things, and it would inevitably go back to the fact that the Joining creates Wardens from the blood of darkspawn and magic, and the Andrastian nations are conservative about magic and specifically magic that involves blood. It's something that can be used against the Wardens quite easily if it was common knowledge among the people, particularly when Andrastians are willing to kill mages over incidents that don't involve them because of their ignorance (as Wynne addresses). Revealing that Wardens drink the specifically prepared blood of an Archdemon and a darkspawn would be the very thing Loghain could have easily used to turn the people of Ferelden against the Wardens when he charged that the Wardens betrayed King Cailan.

Giving actual reasons for people to believe that
the Wardens are correct in asserting that it is a Blight, and why they
are actually necessary to stop it would have made it much less likely that people would turn on them. 

Even Loghain probably wouldn't be so crazy as to knowingly destroy Ferelden's only hope of survival.

As for how clandestine the Joining is, we have no idea whether the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars is aware about the Joining, though.

The Templars watch them pretty closely.

I respectfully disagree. The Wardens got other nations involved to stop the Blight more than once, and you seem to think that preventing the destruction of Thedas is a "poor claim" to competency; I couldn't disagree more on this issue.

I don't think that convincing people to fight the horde of monsters planning to conquer the world is that difficult a task. The amount of credit the wardens are due, beyond that they must have dealt the final blow to the Archdemon, is far from clear.