353 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Given that the Chantry is the largest and most powerful organization in Thedas, and that it's involved in numerous conflicts, I'd think making the protagonist a Seeker would give the player insight into matters we've yet to explore as well as a pleasant excuse for the thumbs-in-everyone's-pie approach BioWare PCs always take.

Except you are automatically forcing the PC to be the stooge of one side and it's a side that many (most I daresay) DAO players don't like.  The option would be fine but don't make us play a Chantry stooge please.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

The PC being a seeker would probably remove the option of being a mage. Not going to happen. A seeker companion (crosses fingers for Cassandra), I could definitely see.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ok hmm.... let's see...

"So is he...?"
"Gone. Just like the Warden."
"That can be no coincidence."
"So what now? Do we continue the search?"
"We leave it in the Maker's hands."

You're right Ian! It's so blatantly obvious they're siding against the mages!

Holy Selective quotes, Batman!

Let's start with Cassandra's open assertions throughout the interview with Varric that the Champion was an apostate/friend-of-apostate with the deliberate mission to bring down the chantry and spread heresy.  The fact she mentions magic in this first and foremost tells you right away Cassandra's own view on mages and magic, and it ain't good.

Likewise Lelianna when you meet her in DA2 is intensely anti-mage in start contrast to her pro-magic stance in DAO.

Varric has to convince her over many hours of intense interrogation that maybe, just maybe, the mages weren't competely to blame after all...and it's still clearly a hard sell for Cassandra.

-Polaris

Yea it's not like someone's view can change. It's not like Cassandra may have believed that the mages were at fault at first and then after the truth is discovered realizes the mages are right. It's not as if you meet Leliana at some unspecified point in time in Year 7 and we have no clue how many years have passed from then until the interrogation, or even if Leliana was actually a mage hater in that meeting.

Which I doubt, considering she admires Wynne and can be either good friends/lover of a Mage Warden. Even if she was, you're saying she has to be for the rest of her life. Like she can't change her views sometime down the road.

Look, you want to believe she's a mage hater, fine. Don't go spouting your opinions with barely any info to support them as fact. Especially when you're stretching those facts like a wedgie turns underwear a few sizes bigger.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't recall any quest in DA:O where you could actually directly side with the Chantry. Like, at all. The closest thing that comes to mind, was helping Brother Burkel (or whatever his name was) opening a Chantry in Orzammar.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall any quest in DA:O where you could actually directly side with the Chantry. Like, at all. The closest thing that comes to mind, was helping Brother Burkel (or whatever his name was) opening a Chantry in Orzammar.

Which IIRC most people don't do either.

-Polaris

[Torax]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall any quest in DA:O where you could actually directly side with the Chantry. Like, at all. The closest thing that comes to mind, was helping Brother Burkel (or whatever his name was) opening a Chantry in Orzammar.

Excactly while the mage lover would make anything involving a mage and or a templar into a Chantry quest I wager. I'm not even a templar fan and it is out of hand. It's a world of grays and not black or white. But Ian and to a point Lob only talk in Black and White.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall any quest in DA:O where you could actually directly side with the Chantry. Like, at all. The closest thing that comes to mind, was helping Brother Burkel (or whatever his name was) opening a Chantry in Orzammar.

Excactly while the mage lover would make anything involving a mage and or a templar into a Chantry quest I wager. I'm not even a templar fan and it is out of hand. It's a world of grays and not black or white. But Ian and to a point Lob only talk in Black and White.

Murdering all [insert minority group here] for something that they didn't even do (and is obvious they didn't do) down the to the last child is not morally grey no matter how much Bioware tries to fuzzy it up and try to convince us that it is.  Genocide is genocide.  Words have meanings.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall any quest in DA:O where you could actually directly side with the Chantry. Like, at all. The closest thing that comes to mind, was helping Brother Burkel (or whatever his name was) opening a Chantry in Orzammar.

Excactly while the mage lover would make anything involving a mage and or a templar into a Chantry quest I wager. I'm not even a templar fan and it is out of hand. It's a world of grays and not black or white. But Ian and to a point Lob only talk in Black and White.

Black, White, Gray. I've got Pokemon on the brain whenever I see those words.


I'm a Chantry hater myself. That doesn't mean I hate people who are a part of the Chantry. I hate the establishment. I can't hate Templar A just because Templar B is an **** to mages. Especially when Templar A is a friend to mages.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd say that the anti-chantry fanbase is just a very, very vocal minority.

LobselVith and and Ian are very vocal about it, but most people are against it.

Likewise, you're very vocally for the chantry. You calling people on it is like the pot calling the kettle black.

I am vocal. That said, I wonder if siding with Sebastian will factor into what happens with Hawke during the mage and templar war (if the protagonist sides with the mages and doesn't become Viscount). Starkhaven is the largest city-states in the Free Marches (according to the codex) and without a Circle of Magi I wonder if Hawke could have a future helping Sebastian reclaim the title of Prince. Maybe all the claims that Hawke would "rise to power" could happen in DLC where Hawke rises to power in Starkhaven.

[TheBlackBaron]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Funny you should mention ME2. Statistics and metrics for games are an interesting beast. I, for one, preferred the ubiquitous femShep, but I am one of those rare ones.

Huh. The way these forums are, you'd think Soldier was the minority class. 

I thought I was a special snowflake for having a Soldier Shep as my canon. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Its not genocide though. It doesn't even fit any of the definitions of genocide I know of. Granted none of those definitions included mages.

To be recognized as genocide, it would have to target every mage everywhere, with the single purpose of destroying all mages. That is the exact opposite of waht the annulment is supposed to do. The annulment target the mages of a single Circle, with the purpose of purging the tower, making it safe again for future generations of mages.

It is not genocide. It is a purge.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Black, White, Gray. I've got Pokemon on the brain whenever I see those words.

At the end, DA2 is not black, nor white nor grey.

But an unimaginable mix of colors that is supposed to represent madness, which seemingly everyone in the game happens to share.

[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torax wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall any quest in DA:O where you could actually directly side with the Chantry. Like, at all. The closest thing that comes to mind, was helping Brother Burkel (or whatever his name was) opening a Chantry in Orzammar.

Excactly while the mage lover would make anything involving a mage and or a templar into a Chantry quest I wager. I'm not even a templar fan and it is out of hand. It's a world of grays and not black or white. But Ian and to a point Lob only talk in Black and White.

Black, White, Gray. I've got Pokemon on the brain whenever I see those words.


I'm a Chantry hater myself. That doesn't mean I hate people who are a part of the Chantry. I hate the establishment. I can't hate Templar A just because Templar B is an **** to mages. Especially when Templar A is a friend to mages.

Basically it's funny. Ian hates the Templars for application of a "Guilt by association" ploy at the end of Act 3. The association being a mage did something screwed up that they are probably proud of so the mages of the circle have to die. Meanwhile they apply "Guilt by assocation" to the Templars are evil cause of some of the ones you see in DA2. The Chantry is evil cause they allow Templars and the Right of Annulment. Even if they feed the widows and orphans and offer jobs when they can to the random public. Yup that Chantry is totally evil.

One of my visions of a good Templar was the one that let Wynne sit on his shoulder to look over fences as they walked to the Circle when she was a child. That is a sign that they are not all evil or the system needs to burn.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Its not genocide though. It doesn't even fit any of the definitions of genocide I know of. Granted none of those definitions included mages.

To be recognized as genocide, it would have to target every mage everywhere, with the single purpose of destroying all mages. That is the exact opposite of waht the annulment is supposed to do. The annulment target the mages of a single Circle, with the purpose of purging the tower, making it safe again for future generations of mages.

It is not genocide. It is a purge.

It's genocide.  You are targeting a minority group for complete execution by virtue of being in that minority group.  As long as it's everyone within a political entity (Kirkwall counts), then it's genocide.  Slobo was found guilty of genocide but I promise you that he didn't try to murder all Bosian Muslims around the world...only those in Bosnia.  It's still genocide though.

Same here.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Torax,

The difference is clear. The Templars have the power and with that power comes responsibility and one of those responsibilities is NOT to obey an immoral order even from otherwise legal authority. The Templars fail and fail badly...even the supposedly good ones.

-Polaris

Edit:  I have never said all Templars are evil.  In fact I've had good things to say about Knight Commander Gregoire for starts.  Just because good Templars might exist does NOT mean the system is inherently rotten and needs to be either completely revamped or replaced.  The number of Templars that DID follow Meridith without a complaint when she was clearly in Fruit-Loop land by issuing an order for Annulment over something the circle never did should be proof enough.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 20 avril 2011 - 01:33 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Its not genocide though. It doesn't even fit any of the definitions of genocide I know of. Granted none of those definitions included mages.

To be recognized as genocide, it would have to target every mage everywhere, with the single purpose of destroying all mages. That is the exact opposite of waht the annulment is supposed to do. The annulment target the mages of a single Circle, with the purpose of purging the tower, making it safe again for future generations of mages.

It is not genocide. It is a purge.

It's genocide.  You are targeting a minority group for complete execution by virtue of being in that minority group.  As long as it's everyone within a political entity (Kirkwall counts), then it's genocide.  Slobo was found guilty of genocide but I promise you that he didn't try to murder all Bosian Muslims around the world...only those in Bosnia.  It's still genocide though.

Same here.

-Polaris

But he did try to kill all Bosnian muslims in Bosnia. That is the major difference. And I believe he was convicted by the definition of Peter Drost. "The deliberate targetting of people, for the sole reason of being part of a group" is the definition in question (or at least something similar. I'm too lazy to dig out the exact quote from the book).
In any case, that is not what is happening during an annulment either. So it still doesn't fit into the definitions of genocide.

[hoorayforicecream]

I know some folks like throwing the term "genocide" around like it's always a terrible, terrible thing, but I would like to point out that the term would qualify even if all of them were abominations. Hawke and friends spend a good amount of time trying to commit genocide on demons, abominations and bandits over the course of the game too, but I don't see anyone saying "Please, won't someone please think of the giant spiders?".

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 20 avril 2011 - 01:36 .

[Torax]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I know some folks like throwing the term "genocide" around like it's always a terrible, terrible thing, but I would like to point out that the term would qualify even if all of them were abominations. Hawke and friends spend a good amount of time trying to commit genocide on demons, abominations and bandits over the course of the game too, but I don't see anyone saying "Please, won't someone please think of the giant spiders?".

What happened to the good old days of red = dead 

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But he did try to kill all Bosnian muslims in Bosnia. That is the major difference. And I believe he was convicted by the definition of Peter Drost. "The deliberate targetting of people, for the sole reason of being part of a group" is the definition in question (or at least something similar. I'm too lazy to dig out the exact quote from the book).
In any case, that is not what is happening during an annulment either. So it still doesn't fit into the definitions of genocide.

Say what?!?  When Meredith declares a Right of Annulment (over something the circle didn't even do and she knows it), she is deliberately targeting all circle mages for death just by virtue of the fact they are circle mages.

That IS Genocide by the definition you just gave.  In fact the UN has entire treatises written about the steps of Genocide and they dovetail with what the Templars do to mages all too well.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, she targets them becase they have commited crimes. Not because they are mages. She does not target them by virtue of being mages. But by virtue of being corrupted.

[hoorayforicecream]

Torax wrote...

What happened to the good old days of red = dead 

You're commiting genocide on the red creatures. Won't somebody think of the creatures with little red circles around their feet? 

[Torax]

It's not precisely genocide if other mages still exist else where. It's why he calls it a purge. Removing disloyal/unwanted parts of a faction. But it's not killing every single mage in existence. They are other Circles which is clearly known. It's not like she was waiting until all of the Order would turn at once and kill every mage. That is why to him it's not Genocide. You just like the word cause it adds weight to an argument in your mind. Maybe to help you win it after how long.

Modifié par Torax, 20 avril 2011 - 01:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I know some folks like throwing the term "genocide" around like it's always a terrible, terrible thing, but I would like to point out that the term would qualify even if all of them were abominations. Hawke and friends spend a good amount of time trying to commit genocide on demons, abominations and bandits over the course of the game too, but I don't see anyone saying "Please, won't someone please think of the giant spiders?".

There is also a rather strong theory that ******-sapiens (us) were at least indirectily responsable (some say directly) for the extinction of ******-erectus.  Our species is based at best on indirect genocide.

But eh, I don't want to get myself into this. The word has become too politicized as to lose academic value.

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torax wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall any quest in DA:O where you could actually directly side with the Chantry. Like, at all. The closest thing that comes to mind, was helping Brother Burkel (or whatever his name was) opening a Chantry in Orzammar.

Excactly while the mage lover would make anything involving a mage and or a templar into a Chantry quest I wager. I'm not even a templar fan and it is out of hand. It's a world of grays and not black or white. But Ian and to a point Lob only talk in Black and White.

Black, White, Gray. I've got Pokemon on the brain whenever I see those words.


I'm a Chantry hater myself. That doesn't mean I hate people who are a part of the Chantry. I hate the establishment. I can't hate Templar A just because Templar B is an **** to mages. Especially when Templar A is a friend to mages.

Basically it's funny. Ian hates the Templars for application of a "Guilt by association" ploy at the end of Act 3. The association being a mage did something screwed up that they are probably proud of so the mages of the circle have to die. Meanwhile they apply "Guilt by assocation" to the Templars are evil cause of some of the ones you see in DA2. The Chantry is evil cause they allow Templars and the Right of Annulment. Even if they feed the widows and orphans and offer jobs when they can to the random public. Yup that Chantry is totally evil.

One of my visions of a good Templar was the one that let Wynne sit on his shoulder to look over fences as they walked to the Circle when she was a child. That is a sign that they are not all evil or the system needs to burn.

The problem is that the Chantry only recruits from people who have a fervent and fanatical faith in the Maker *cough cough Ser Varnell cough cough*. Very rarely do the good people who treat mages as people and simultaneously have a strong faith in the Maker get recruited.

That's the inherent problem. Not power or the responsibility that comes with it, but the fact that the Templars are mostly composed of zealots who see mages as not human/elven.

Thrask, Ser Maarevar Carver, Cullen (prior to the Uldred incident, though that whole thing gives him a sorta good reason to be fearful), Greagoir, the KC in Redcliffe, Alistair, and that Templar Wynne knew are just the few Templars we've seen to be good people.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No, she targets them becase they have commited crimes. Not because they are mages. She does not target them by virtue of being mages. But by virtue of being corrupted.

You do realize that that's how all genocides are justified right?