I am going to ignore the comments and remarks that make all this sound like a sad rant.
[quote]Raonar wrote...
For one, his attempt at playing you against Trian... is SO blatantly obvious, and that was even before he blurted "You're my elder, I'll respect whatever decision you make." Isn't Trian his elder too? THE eldest? If he's willing to s ee him killed because "he can really grate on the nerves" then I don't feel like trusting him that much. Not to mention "Of course I'll help you kill our brother, you've always been there for me..." The ONLY reason that can even work on the DN... is because the DN warden is given an idiot ball the size of the sun that he never even suspects Bhelen is up to something. And this is deus ex machina number one.[/quote]
No, Bhelen said that he wants Trian to die because he can't trust him anymore as he is killing the middle sibling. his argument is that if Trian kills the DN, what's to stop him from killing him?
[quote]
The second machina is immediately afterwards. The DN was just told his brother wants him dead... and he just goes to bed like nothing is up, instead of confronting him or contacting some spies, or preparing some contingencies or something. LoL. Especially with what Trian's Journal reveals.[/quote]
Confronting Trian about it would likely be very counter productive. Here is why.
"23 Ferventis: Was on my way to discuss the treaty with Father when
came across a messenger waiting in the hall. On being asked by he was
loitering about the royal palace, he mumbled something about having a
gift for the "new commander" and asked me (begged, almost) to pass along
some object or other to my sibling. Me! The heir to the throne of
Orzammar does not run errands for a messenger! Must have been new on the
job. Had him thrown out; however, still reeling from the gall of it.
Learned later that Bhelen had told messenger that the quickest
way to get things to our sibling was through me and had made him wait
until I came by. So unseemly for a prince of Orzammar to play such
tricks. He needs to grow up and understand that, as royalty, he has
responsibilities."
Now it could be that Bhelen was just playing a joke. Far more likely, considering how his plan spanned months, that this is a calculated move by Bhelen to keep angering Trian and create animosity between the siblings. Now if you went to Trian and told him, what would he, who is very jealous and angered of the DN (and thinks he is manipulating the crowd if he fights in the provings), would think? He, in his blind pride, will probably think that the DN is tryigng to drive a wedge between him and Bhelen. Bhelen afterall, being the rear guard, is the one watching his back in the expedition. Trian might very well reach the conclusion that the DN is trying ti isolate them from each other.
That's first. Second, you use absence of evidence as evidence of absence. How do you know that Bhelen had not planned for several contingencies? Do you have any evidence to support your claim?
[quote]
And then comes the next day. I will skip over how the DN only finds out about his special mission right then, but Bhelen somehow knew beforehand and with enough forewarning to set up ambushes and bla bla. I will not add this to the list of machinas because it is so incredibly ridiculous that I'll just chalk it up to game mechanics and how players would have needed an exposition (though I still think the game makerscould have come up with something better).[/quote]
How is it ridiculous? As Endrin's escort, maybe Endrin told him? Maybe he overheard it? Maybe he has spies all over the palace?
Point is, he found out. Not ridiculous, nor unfeasible. That's just denial at work here.
[quote]
Deus ex machina number three is how, regardless of how long you take or what you want to do, you arrive at the rendezvous point EXACTLY on time for Bhelen and the rest to 'catch you in the act' whether you killed Trian or not... and that makes no sense whatsoever. Unless Bhelen is secretly a precog that knows exactly WHEN that will happen, sorry, but I do NOT buy that. [/quote]
Coincidence? Would it have mattered if Bhelen and Endrin stumbled on you killing Trian a few minutes later, or during the act? Or even an hour after? He already had witnesses ready. Plus, it's called dramatic effect. Take it up to the writers.
[quote]
And let's not talk about how you can actually find Trian already murdered. Am I seriously expected to find him there and his men dead? This is a spectacular instance when game mechanics destroyed every shred of sense left in a game. That whole mission was supposed to be a military expedition. The reason you only go in the Thaig with Gorim and two others (eventually) is because of game mechanics. Normally, you're supposed to have troops with you, a whole army (Duncan asks you where your troops are when he recruits you). That whole mission is, after all, also supposed to restore access to some mines, among other things.[/quote]
Because Endrin obviously wants the DN to be successor, hence why he sends him to recover the shield of Aeducan, which is more important than any mine?
[quote]
Trian is the eldest and has been commander for longer and has to go with the Grey Wardens and do the hardest part of the mission... meaning that he'll obviously have the largest force (hundreds maybe). So how in the sodding hell were a bunch of castless mercenaries able to murder him when he got to the rendezvous? Unless he left all his troops behind somewhere (which makes no sense, even if he does leave a few to patrol the newly accessed mines), I can't see him possibly dying.[/quote]
So you want Trian to re-mobalise his entire army to the rendez vous and show everyone that he is killign his sibling (and he clearly wants to kill the DN by then, Bhelen would have told him). Trian is very big on the appearance of honor and you want him to virtually publically execute his sibling? It makes much mroe sense for Trian to be escorted by his elite guards that he trusts. Bhelen would have told him that the DN has noithign but 3 guards. In his stubborn pride, Trian would naturally underestimate him.
[quote]
And speaking of this, with how you should also have troops with you, how exactly would your framing actually work then? Unless Bhelen somehow buys the loyalty/blackmails every possible warrior/warrior house in the city, along with whatever other nobles happen to be with you... lol.[/quote]
Since he knew the nature of your mission, it's unnecessary.
And he at least had 50% of the Assembly already.
[quote]
Basically, the chances of his scheme succeeding are just incredibly small, if there even are any. All of it could go wrong in so many ways. Odd how people that love realism failed to notice this (read: deliberately overlooked something so obvious).[/quote]
Plans can always go wrong in many ways. Point is, it did not. Bhelen's plan was not ridiculous, nor unfeasible and his chances of succeeding were high and he did succeed. All this ranting is irrelevent.
[quote]
Now, during the Paragon of her Kind quest line, Denek Helmi Says Bhelen is subtle as sin... but I found no evidence of this (unless you count that 'sin' is NOT subtle AT ALL in Orzammar, in which case it does make some sense).[/quote]
Subtelty has a time and place. Bhelen was obviously sublte when he was planing for his grap for power. But there comes a time when a show of strength, and not subtelty, is the rule of the game. Especially in a political context like that of Orzammar (unlike say Orlais).
You want examples? You think Octavian started out subtle? He had his army march on Rome and the Senate, imposed himself as consul at 19 years old, massacred many senators in proscriptions including his allies. Now are you honestly going to argue with me that Augustus is not brilliant?
Subetely is not always the name of the game. It has a time and place.
[quote]
And let's not speak of how a merchant says he saw Bhelen slap his second around (true, a cut one -restored by a mod-, but still).[/quote]
And?
[quote]
Or, most importantly, how Bhelen almost openly tells you to kill Branka (the sodding Paragon!) if she happens to not want to support him. [/quote]
That's one of his best qualities. That he will not allow silly superstitions to get in his way.
[quote]
Proof In Game: Branka, of all people, knows what Bhelen is like. She was a noble for a few months that was said to not have participated in noble life much before she ran off with her whole house... so am I really supposed to buy into the inanity that she knew what Bhelen was like while no one in his family suspected? [/quote]
a, Branka was always very highly intelligent.
b, what makes you so sure she isn't lying or pretending to know what's happening in order to look smart? People do that all the time.
If the supposed plot hole bothers you, take it to the writerts. This has little to do with Bhelen.
[quote]
Proof in Game, The Sequel: Corra, the mistress of Tapsters tavern says, when a DN asks her if she 'serves' Bhelen: "I do, and he disgusts me as much as always, but at least with him you know what you're getting." [/quote]
Because people never lie? You never talk to people and they claim to know an official on a personal basis? Happened to me several times.
Or maybe she was just disgusted by him apparently being a womanizer. And in her subjectivity, started hating him and accusing him of aything. Like that never happens. Again, little to do with Bhelen.
I really couldn't are less what a servant at Tapsters has to say.
[quote]
As such, I also don't buy into Bhelen's apparent personality cult and all the fanatics that attack you if you work against him Yet he has so many fanatics... Even Piotin respects him a bit too much, and that is deus ex machina number seven.[/quote]
Do you really want me to tell you how many less competent figures in our own history had fanatics following them?
You think it's a personality cult and not an alliance of interest? You think those fanatics aren't warriors who are patronised by noble houses allied to Bhelen for economic interests? You don't think the fact that he is an Aeducan could have played a part in it? Charisma, ever heard of it? Think.
[quote]
And then there's the fact that Bhelen always says it's just a matter of time before the throne is his... even though his support is dropping (Nerav Helmi even outright says this, and yes, it's true). [/quote]
No, it is not. If it did, an election would have sealed the deal. Neither tips the scale. Nerav is highly biased and hates Bhelen. Do you really think that, in tryign to convince you to support Harromwont, that she is going to say that Bhelen is winning?
Furthermore, with Bhelen on the offensive, and Harrowmont running with his tail behind his legs, will most likely result in Bhelen winning if not for Warden interefernece. Add to that the debacle at the Provings.
[quote]
Seriously. I find it hard to buy into the fact that so many people so stupidly rebel against Harrowmont's rule, on Bhelen's behalf... even after revealing the incriminating papers and though Bhelen gets himself killed by so foolishly trying to stage that coup (and regardless of what you say, I will NEVER stop considering that stint idiotic, especially considering that it was made just AFTER the coronation, instead of before). And let's not forget that they tried to defy a PARAGON. Just how in the hells did his sycophants have any support against Harrowmont after that?[/quote]
Economic and business deals. Money happens to buy a lot of loyalty, especially in a context of noble competition, where the only thing they care about is wealth and prestige / image of honor.
And maybe because Bhelen happens to be a stronger and more imposing authority than the weakling Harrowmont.
[quote]
What's more, most of the so-called support Bhelen has is because he
happened to be born an Aeducan. His sycophants are of smaller houses, weak ones. Bhelen chooses a second from one of the lowest houses just so he'd entertain the illusion he's so much stronger. Maybe some folks failed to see it, but House Helmi (which Bhelen lost, while even Trian knew they had to stay allied with it, even if it meant political marriage) and Dace (the attention the game gives them practically cements their status as high House) are allied with Harrowmont now.[/quote]
Evidence? Bhelen has 50% of Deshyrs and those are the big houses. Argument refuted.
And helmi and Dace can very easily be tipped to rjoin Bhelen, all they need is to read the papers.
Evidence that the Deshyrs picked him simply because he is an Aeducan? He planned with them to get rid of the two other Aeducans, how does that make sense to you? Much more likely that Bhelen gave them material promises and perhaps even manipulated them into thinking he is weak and easy to manipulate. I am sure idiotic deshyrs would love to have a weak king (which they get with Harrowmont).
[quote]
Let me point something out to you. Bhelen was dragging, worming and squirming for months, even years prior to the DN origin, to get the support in the assembly, JUST so he could overcome the favor the DN had gathered without even TRYING. Then, when Endrin died, up comes Harrowmont and matches Bhelen in like, what, a day? Two? And he gets the two top houses just like that, without any preparations or dishonorable methods... And people still say Pyral is the weak one... why? Because Bhelen has no problem killing people left and right (well, via deus ex machinas)? It makes no sense.[/quote]
Dragging, worming and squirming? Ignoring.
Bhelen was planning, calculating and making deals to make half the Assembly turn on Orzammar's rising star (the DN), and even block a trial, and eliminate the appointed successor (Trian), while he is barely considered an adult That's not "just". That's like a 16 year old managing something like this. If that is not impressive to you, then I wonder what is. Oh right....Harrowmont lol
And you fail to take into consideration that Houses may pick Harrowmont precisely because he is weak. Or precisely because he is not an Aeducan (and we see many nobles complaining). That's politics for you.
[quote]
Another thing. Some biased players will erroneously start saying that being good at cheating and murdering is what strength in Orzammar is synonymous with (though Bhelen fails at this, since deus ex machinas do his work for him). Well, this point kind of crumbles when you realize that both houses Helmi and Dace, besides house Harrowmont, actually are genuinely honorable (Aeducan is supposed to also be, but Bhelen ruins that too, nice going). You MIGHT say Dace isn't, because it focuses more on its own wellbeing, but meeting Anwer will inevitably prove this wrong. He is affronted Harrowmont would do something of the sort (use trickery).[/quote]
Laughable. And confusing the head of the house, with the house itself. A house is a much more dynamic organization. You honestly think the drunk Helmi has any real say in his house? He does what they tell him to. And that's not counting that he is considered a disgrace by everyone. If that's honorable, then keep your honor.
Furthermore, the system itself is based on as much noble competition as possible. It doesn't matter if they are individually "honorable", they will be caught up in the competition whether they like it or not. And that competition entails dirty play. And short sighted idiocy above the greter good of Orzammar.
And confusing anger at being trciked (pride and honor assaulted), with anger by principle. Since Orzammar is a culture of honor and not guilt, it's a question of sppearance and pride and not likely principle.
And somehow thinking that 2 houses are supposed to represent the entire system and how honorable is weak evidence at best.
[quote]
One might say Anwer Dace has no choice but to focus on his own house's wellbeing. After all, what good would it do to try and do good to others when those others (Bhelen and his fellow glorified idiots that is) would cheat him for their own ends? Besides, Dace thrives due to their surface connections, meaning that Harrowmont probably doesn't want total isolation, since Dace isn't about to renounce its trade connections but STILL is on Pyral's side.[/quote]
Because Harrowmont didn't tell him that he is that idiotic? Because there are more houses that want isolation (probably to weaken their rivals) than Dace? Think. Harrowmont is a compromiser and he'll do anythign the Assembly tells him to. Dace is just 1/80.
[quote]
So players favor Bhelen because he supposedly makes a show of strength (which I haven't seen yet, beyond really stupid attempts)? Let me point out another thing to you. He stays cooped up in his palace and some brands make a tunnel through the sodding ceiling in search of breaking into the palace treasury. And he's capable of taking care of the city how exactly? When the royal palace itself is so vulnerable WITH HIM IN IT?[/quote]
Because Harrowmont's estate is safer? Blame the architects for not designing a basement with guards in it.
Bhelen was in the other side of the palace, a bunch of thieves were not going to be a threat to his person. To his prestige, sure. Assumign that anyone found out before the royal guard jump on them.
[quote]
Excuse me? What? Orzammar wasn't doing badly at all. Sure, population slowly dying and all that, but that's been going on for a long time (centuries) and the one reform he makes isn't going to change that (except in Bhelen worshippers' make-believe DAO universes, maybe). Plus, the dwarves were hardly lacking in finances.[/quote]
You're serious? May I remind you that you went to Orzammar when it's at it's best because of a blight (deep roads emptied). Imagine fighting Darkspawn 24/7.
Slow or quick death, Orzammar is dying and everyone can see it.
[quote]
The codex talks about Orzammar's vast wealth. In the whole game, NO merchants or miners or smiths ever complain about anything except the fact that there is no king so they can't go in and out of Orzammar (and Harrowmont wants minimum dependence on the surface, not total isolation, though people will choose to believe this anyway). As for the nobles: "I will die without my favorite plum jam from the surface!" is their biggest complaint. (A female noble in the diamond quarter says this, yes). So what age of prosperity does Bhelen start exactly, when Orzammar already was prosperous?[/quote]
The merchant who supports Bhelen.
Harrowmont wants total isolation, deal with it.
What prosperity? Increase in trade and more respect to the people who do the surface trade.
[quote]
So let's see, Bhelen encourages trade... This much can be done in a year or two. [/quote]
Shows you how much you know. Trade is not "lol Ima open up for trade in 2 years!". Focus on trade is a policy commitment. With many domestic and exterior variables that will need to be constantly monitered and adjusted to. Things like, what noble hosues benefit? How much do they benefit? What about the others? What about tarriffs? New opportunity to sell Lyrium? How many mines can we clear? Money supply and how that affects prices?
Trade is a policy commitment that needs constant direction.
[quote]
And then what did he do for the rest of his many years of rule (which only lasted because of his plot armor)? Sit on his hands? Kill people? [/quote]
Liberate many parts of the Deep roads.
[quote]
We already know he murders all of House Harrowmont in DA2, for no reason except petty hatred.[/quote]
No, because that Harrowmont ends up going to Kal Shirok. Who btw, hates Orzammar. Is 2+2 hard for you?
He is a potential threat on the loose, even if he doens't want anything. Nobles can act in his name (exactly like they do with Alistair.
[quote]
And DON'T start saying it was necessary, because we all know that's nonsense. Harrowmont openly kneels before him and declares submission... and Bhelen still has him executed, calling him the voice of dissent (and DON'T say Bhelen had a reason to worry about acting behind his back, not after we know how much dwarves prize appearances and, thus, deshyrs would have been put off by Pyral's instant submission).[/quote]
Hence why Bhelen was able to defeat the rebels and Harrowmont was not except with golems. Yes, it's necessary. Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of history would know that even in similar societies and in similar contexts (Rome), calculated and targetted massacres can succeed (Part of the reason why Octavian succeeded while Caesar failed is because he was much more ruthless). And there are much mroe extreme and succesful examples.
[quote]
So let's see, Bhelen causes the deaths of everyone in his own family [/quote]
And?
And I am ignoring the arguments about Endrin because I couldnt' care less what the senile imbecile thinks or did.
[quote]
And after he did, he murders everyone else in that house (which were possibly over a hundred or more in number, what with the house being as old as Orzammar itself) why exactly?[/quote]
To remove the possibility of rebellion forever and show Orzammar that he and he alones hold the stick and the carrot. And that enemies will feel his wrath and allies would benefit from his genoerosity. What Bhelen did was mild in comparision to many others.
[quote]
Really, Bhelen does what he does (and even names his son Endrin, which is downright sad) not out of some will to help Orzammar or whatnot, but because he wants some approval from daddy. How in HELL is Endrin supposed to acknowledge him when Bhelen WILFULLY acts the unassuming, incompetent third child? This is all so stupid on his part that it boggles the mind.[/quote]
Or maybe because, in planing to build a dynasty, he uses the name Endrin because its recognizible?
In any case, I do not give a damn about you playing junior psychologist. I care about results.
[quote]
Yes, you read it right. The epilogue says he gives the brands more freedoms in exchange for military aid against darkspawn. In other words, he used the men as fodder and leaves it to Orzammar at large to decide whether they want the services of the remaining brands or not [/quote]
Go back to Kal Hirol and see that many casteless were willing to die for nothing, only to show that they are worthy of holding a sword. Something they were held as compeltely beneath.
Having the casteless fight, even as cannon fodder, is a betterment in their living condition, a symbolic / moral boost for them who for the first time in their entire existence are doing something worthy, and that could be used as the foundation for something more later.
Furthermore, that one casteless who goes and fights for a pay, even if he dies, can send it to his family, increasing their living condition (and making them consummers. That too goes into more prosperity. Harrowmont kicks them out of the commons so they can't even buy and sell). Does he make them rich? Of course not. Much better than what they are suffering right now. Or worse, with Harrowmont.
[quote]
Actually, he speaks of dust town (and how he has no leverage there) with such disdain when he sends you after Jarvia that it's quite obvious he doesn't hold them in much higher regard than Harrowmont does (and yes, I know some would start arguing he only hates Jarvia, you believe that if you want, I noticed people are getting especially good at grasping at straws when their dear, dear Bhelen is involved). It's very possible he throws the brands against the darkspawn just so he can thin their numbers (and no, you have no more counter arguments to this than I have supporting ones).[/quote]
I do not really care if he genuinely loves them or not. What I do care is that he sees how idiotic traditions are and that the casteless are a ressource that are not being tapped because of sheer idiocy. That's all that matters to me.
At the end of the day, he doesn't massacre them and wastes resources. Harrowmont does.
[quote]
And now you'll say: But... BUT RICA! Lol. A courtesan. His LATEST companion. She's nothing more than a means to an end to him (as proven by how he never even tries to intervene on behalf of the DC before he gets arrested after Beraht is killed, nor later, so he/she is still found dead in the Carta). Lies to her face just so he can have someone to love him since his daddy wouldn't. LOL.[/quote]
Evidence?
[quote]
which, to an already wealthy Orzammar, isn't such a big deal[/quote]
When the alternative is isolation? Yes, it is a big deal.
And yes, even without that, it's a big deal. Because the trade Orzammar performs is one which disprespects and alienates the surfacers.
[quote]
History is divided only because he probably killed or scared off most scholars (I wonder if he murders the Shaper of Memories too, since he's supposedly related to Harrowmont). [/quote]
Evidence?
[quote]
After that, what? He dissolves the assembly and rules alone? Because of assassination attempts against him? [/quote]
Yes. And?
[quote]
Another case of Plot Armor. With EVERYONE (or very nearly) wanting him dead... how the hell does he make it? [/quote]
Evidence? At best, warriors and nobles hate him. It didn't even mention how many. Considering his business deals and the stick that he's already shown, I think most would get in line.
[quote]
After how he only got there thanks to so many deus ex machinas, sorry, I am not buying it. As a real-life example, Caesar was stabbed to death long before he even got near that part, and he was actually likable AND realistically competent.[/quote]
Caesar also happened to walk in the Senate with no guards and naively treated the Senators as equals when he didn't have the sword right next to him to remind them that that's not the case. Aka, he wasn't Augustus.
[quote]
And, supposing, again for the sake of argument, that Bhelen really was mildly competent, it may very well be that he stages those assassinations just as an excuse to have yet ANOTHER bunch of people murdered [/quote]
That would be smart. And?
[quote]
That dissolving the assembly thing isn't even his idea. He's ripping off Paragon King Bemot. Add to that the fact that his 'methods' are so flawed, what can I deduce from this all?[/quote]
Oh someone else dissolved the Assembly? No! Bhelen is ripping off someone!
Yea, Bhelen shoudl totally experim,ent with something cool and extreme! Because ripping off previous kings who actually succeeded in what they did, is bad.
You are starting to sound ridiculous.
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And just so we're clear: The fact that you succeed in killing off your political opponents does NOT automatically make you a good leader[/quote]
It's one of many things and Bhelen showed many other qualities which you are too blind to see.
[quote]
But this isn't the funny part. The thing is that, those very same players (and here's the irony) use that VERY SAME ruthlessness as an argument AGAINST Harrowmont if the Anvil is kept. [/quote]
My position against that is not ruthlessness. It's rather idiocy, Orzammar is facing a depopulation and the people that Orzammar can and should use, end up being massacred by Harrowmont's golems who should be at the front fighting Darkspawn? That he actually managed to make their lives even worse than they already are?
My problem is not his ruthlessness. It's rather how misplaced and idiotic it is.
[quote]
I bet that if Bhelen was the one that brutally put the castless down, certain players would immediately start to find reasons to support his decision. [/quote]
But he wouldn't because he sees the potential in them. Aka he is not a bling traditonalist moron.
[quote]
At least Pyral does what he does for stability (nevermind that him saying "I want to be remembered as kind and compassionate" butts heads with him brutally putting down that riot, so yeah, nice character derailment).[/quote]
Oh, because Harrowmont told you he is nice and compassionate, that means what he did is a derailement? Oh no, someone lied to you?
Read about Robespierre.
[quote]
Let's see, he's the honorable guy that also happens to be a traditionalist... And here is the beginning of our problem. People always keep saying as the prime anti-Harrowmont argument that he's bad for the dwarves because he's a traditionalist. Well maybe people haven't yet realized that Bhelen isn't much of a reformer either (The throne is MIINNNE because I have the magical Aeducan bloodline!).[/quote]
Louis XIV also argued his right to be king on the basis of divine rule. But every scholar and historian knows he was a reformer. You don't have to reform everything to be a reformer, that's just idiotic.
Bhelen is a reformer, with his lessened caste restrictions, increased trade, casteless in the army (aka something resembling a professional army under his sole command and not warriors under the command of houses that can defect at any time they wish like they did at the end).
[quote]
The OTHER major thing is that... we don't really know WHAT those traditions are besides the caste system (which isn't really that unfortunate in itself, as a base concept at least), so we can't really say they're bad, now can we? You know, if ALL those traditions really were so bad, you'd think more people would have noticed it by now, what with them having been there for so many centuries [/quote]
Read more history and see how many nations and cultures held on to idiotic traditions, because they are traditions, until it's too late or they got a huge slap in the face.
You are forgetting that their traditions have also religious importance as it's part of pseudo-ancestor worship.
[quote]
The only so-called BAD thing that Harrowmont wants is more isolation, but that term was used loosely. What he really wants (at least you can see it as an interpretation) is a higher degree of self-sustenance for the city as a whole [/quote]
Except he cuts it almost compeltely when everyone knows it's Orzammar's lifeline.
Orzammar can't be self-sustainable. Or can barely be so, but can never progress by it. They need trade and lots of it, otherwise they end up like Kal Shirok.
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Harrowmont is blatantly described as being a compromiser... so OF COURSE he'd eventually try to somehow make a compromise between the old and new ways[/quote]
That assumes that they are equal in number. And even if they are equal in number, that risks paralysis.
[quote]
The only reason he never really manages it is because Bhelen destroys everything[/quote]
Because Harrowmont on his own can't figure out what needs to be done. No, he needs to lick Assembly ass.
[quote]
Harrowmont tries to gain some stability before he can do anything, which is actually pertinent... and he fails only because of those worms mentioned above. This doesn't make him weak. It doesn't matter how strong someone is when half of the city you're trying to protect is out for your blood [/quote]
Bhelen wiped them out with ease and immediately started. Why? Because victory against the blight, especially when using casteless, is the perfect cover for some clean up and for a reform platform.
[quote]
Honestly, considering that House Harrowmont is as old as Orzammar itself, I actually find it admirable that they actually are honorable. It takes a special kind of strength to try and steer Orzammar in that direction. I'll always be all for a higher level of thinking. [/quote]
Oh sure, Harrowmont is really special.
The bad kind.
[quote]
All a Warden has to do is extract a promise from him to improve their lot of life, something a compromiser like him may very well consent to, given enough Warden coercion, and he doesn't even have to reveal this until after the coronation, so he won't have to worry about losing support of traditionalists either (the game ever so conveniently refused to allow for this).[/quote]
Yes because the Warden can outvote 80 Deshyrs. Where have I heard this before?
[quote]
And please don't start saying you can't trust him to keep his word. He does. He's a man of his word[/quote]
Because he told you?
[quote]
Another thing people use to say Harrowmont is weak is the fact that he's actually frank with you, as well he should be. He says he will bring the wardens' request before the assembly. Bhelen says he'll definitely give you troops and rants about unity and the fulcrum of true evil. Really? Am I supposed to believe that guy? [/quote]
I will take my chances with him, rather than with the one whose own guards practically abandon him in the streets, whose champions desert, and who as a compromiser can only act if the Assembly allows him to act (and if they can't even decide a king, why would they decide to send their men to a surface blight).
I will take my chances with the one who is more capable. And who actually has vested interest in the Surface not being overrrun.
[quote]
Proof in Game that he's bull****ting: He can't do jack about those two noble houses that refuse to send troops to Redcliffe.[/quote]
You assume that he doesn't punish them very severily.
[quote]
And what does Bhelen do? He goes to war against Branka... and probably gets about half of Orzammar's men killed (or more) before he gives up, [/quote]
The only ass pull I see are the ridiculous numbers you provide. Source? Evidence?
If you are talking about the siege being lifted, more often then not, they are lifted because of the time and supplies recquired to maintain a protracted siege. Not because of ridiculous casualties like you are pulling out of your rectum.
[quote]
And now you'll say: But but! With Harrowmont, Branka raids the surface and gets the humans to collapse the entrance! (I'll set aside how I really am having trouble picturing anything that could really block that insanely large entrance to Orzammar on TOP of the mountain). What, pray tell, says this won't happen after Bhelen gives up on the war against her? Nothing. It could very well just be a delay, nothing more, especially with Orzammar's armies depleted (so he won't be able to stop her, even if the surface demands it of him).[/quote]
Bhelen has Branka contained. Harrowmont, because he is an idiot, doesn't dare look side ways at a paragon and risks war with the surface because of his incomeptence and inability to understand that he as king should holkd the monopoly on legitimate use of force (Weber 101). And I am not even mentionning the international implications and how weak Orzammar looks like with Harrowmont because of this.
[quote]
And don't even TRY to use the boon argument. Setting aside the fact that Harrowmont denying them entry is yet another ass pull ex machina in Bhelen's favor[/quote]
Deal with it.
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the fact is that, with Bhelen, the darkspawn are pushed back to the dead trenches, but it is NOT his merit. It is the DN's, nothing more.[/quote]
No, Bhelen takes back a lot of the deep raods without the boon. More with Golems.
[quote]
All in all, you can probably guess that I NEVER choose Bhelen as king and that he absolutely revolts me, not just because he has no redeeming qualities I can see but also because of how many deus ex machinas he got helped by.[/quote]
Good for you.
Now I could list all the reasons, in-game, as to why I pick Bhelen without a shred of a doubt. But since you are obviously not interested in discussion. At all. I don't see much point. Already wasted too much of my time as it is.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 avril 2011 - 06:35 .
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