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[Elmara]

@GSSAGE7: "where most of the population are thieves, thugs, murderers, etc" I noted that it wasn't all members. Nevertheless, if 90% of the population is criminal must it be saved? Does it deserve to?

[Corker]

Are y'all for real?

Even Mischa in Awakening recognizes that they turn to crime because they are not allowed to do anything else. It's not legal to give a casteless a job that should go to a Servant caste dwarf. What exactly are they supposed to do?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elmara wrote...

@GSSAGE7: "where most of the population are thieves, thugs, murderers, etc" I noted that it wasn't all members. Nevertheless, if 90% of the population is criminal must it be saved? Does it deserve to?

And I wonder who would be stupid enough in Orzammar to care about what you think people deserve or not (Harrowmont), when Orzammar is facing a depopulation crisis and a shortage of manpower and has to fight darkspawn 24/7.

This is exactly the half arsed thinking that, in addition to getting it backwards and looking at symptoms instead of causes, is also ignoring a vital source of manpower that is desperately needed and that is making Orzammar a dying city.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2011 - 03:07 .

[Elmara]

just playing devil's advocate

[GSSAGE7]

Elmara wrote...

@GSSAGE7: "where most of the population are thieves, thugs, murderers, etc" I noted that it wasn't all members. Nevertheless, if 90% of the population is criminal must it be saved? Does it deserve to?

If 90% of the population is criminal, give 100% a chance. If they screw up, THEN you can say "these ones are criminals, not the other ones".

Also, I found myself randomly thinking. Exactly what "rights" did Bhelen give the castless, besides the right to die fighting darkspawn?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Besides the right to fight for their people and show that they are not scum, the epilogue does not specify, but simply mentions rights in exchange for their services. In addition, it mentions lessened caste restrictions, so maybe casteless could now work for other castes and get payment.

[TEWR]

If I may necro this thread -- whether it'll stay alive after my post I do not know, but the DAII forum has bored me for a long time and I've never really posted much in this forum since I made this account -- I agree with things said by both the OP and other people.

I play as a Dwarf Noble a lot of the time. It's by far my favorite origin. But not only does it anger me that I can't call Bhelen out on what he's planning, but I can't even take the throne when Orzammar's own society allows it in various fields.

I knew right away on my first playthrough of the DN origin what he was doing. HN was my first actual origin, but after reaching Ostagar I turned the game off and went to the DN because I wanted to play all of the origins before moving on to the main game proper.

I knew. But I could do nothing but play the part of the fool. What angered me more was what the OP said in the beginning of his post.

I'm reputed to be politically savvy. But I cannot display this in the most important aspects of the Origin and the Dwarven main quest -- namely, knowing what Bhelen was planning or taking the throne for myself.

My feelings on Bhelen's rise to power are.... conflicting, to say the least. When I simply read the first page, I saw the merit in the argument of it being somewhat contrived. After reading KoP's post on page 2, now it doesn't seem so contrived. Funny that, but that is how the forum works. Opinions will change very easily, based on new information garnered from different viewpoints.

I've always hated the constant switching of opinions I seem to do, because it always seems to make me fickle. Even if it's understandable, I've never liked it.

At any rate, the only reason I can bring myself to side with Bhelen is because of metagaming, using the knowledge of him accepting human aid in fighting the Darkspawn. And that names me a Paragon. I despise Bhelen. But I put him on the throne anyway. If Harrowmont had accepted human aid in fighting the Darkspawn and I had been named Paragon, I would put him on the throne every time. Even if I couldn't be named king myself.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 mars 2012 - 07:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I knew. But I could do nothing but play the part of the fool. What angered me more was what the OP said in the beginning of his post.

You are looking at it from a metagming perspective. You are a player who is genre-savvy. Bhelen was as obvious as Howe (does that make the Couslands moronic?).

Now imagine that you are the DN. Bhelen is your young playboy brother who is barely an adult and who no one takes seriously and is too busy screwing around with casteless women, while Trian is your older brother with military experience who is jealous of you. And you are Orzammar's rising star, who is extremily popular with the Assembly and the most likely person to succeed Endrin who evidently likes you the most. 

Now honestly, would you see Bhelen's plan coming?
The DN not seeing it coming is not foolish, it's perfectly understandable. What Bhelen pulled off required months of planning and more importantly, required him deliberately acting like an idiot.

EDIT: and you could display some savvy in the origin. When dealing with Dace. Also you fighting in the proving is a politically astute decision if you were aiming for the throne. Also the dispute between the noble and scholar.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 mars 2012 - 04:41 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You are looking at it from a metagming perspective. You are a player who is genre-savvy. Bhelen was as obvious as Howe (does that make the Couslands moronic?).

Eh, I wouldn't call myself genre-savvy.

And Howe was even worse, given his statement "I... thank you. That is... quite unnecessary." Anyone should be wary of such a line -- though my first inclination was that he was being blackmailed into doing something awful and not that he wanted to do such a thing.

In that situation, it'd be nice if I could reassign guards -- even if it's ultimately a futile endeavor, it would go a long way towards roleplaying my Cousland characters.

Now imagine that you are the DN. Bhelen is your young playboy brother who is barely an adult and who no one takes seriously and is too busy screwing around with casteless women, while Trian is your older brother with military experience who is jealous of you. And you are Orzammar's rising star, who is extremily popular with the Assembly and the most likely person to succeed Endrin who evidently likes you the most. 

Now honestly, would you see Bhelen's plan coming?
The DN not seeing it coming is not foolish, it's perfectly understandable. What Bhelen pulled off required months of planning and more importantly, required him deliberately acting like an idiot.

Oh I don't chastise Bhelen for his scheming. It's very grand indeed and required months of work -- something my fanfic addresses as we see how Bhelen gains the support of half of the Assembly. Well, we hear about it.

And yes, I would. Because I know not from being genre-savvy -- really, I'm not such a thing methinks -- but from firsthand experience with brothers.

I know that brothers can be an ass but still mean well. I know that Trian -- despite all the anger and jealousy he seems to hold -- truly cares for his family. The Dwarf Noble is even given the option to say as much and can even be told he's a good judge of character by Gorim later on.

That is why I'm suspicious of Bhelen. Trian may be an ass, but he's an ass for good reasons. He wants the Dwarf Noble to be dutiful and just as much an example to others as he thinks he is. He cares for the Dwarf Noble in his own way, even if it's not readily apparent.

For Bhelen to say that Trian will kill me... well that just sounds way too convenient for me. The one who gains the most from one brother killing the other is Bhelen. Bhelen's plan could've still worked, but I should've been at least able to call him out on it and say I would play no part in his plans.

Politics do factor into why I suspect Bhelen, but also what comprises a family and what holds it together alongside pure gut instinct. And that is enough for me.

The Dwarf Noble is reputed to be politically savvy. For Bhelen's plan to have gone unnoticed by someone politically savvy, well that does strain some credulity. I would expect someone that has connections to find out about Bhelen's treacherous acts, or at least enough to arouse personal suspicion. And the DN does have connections of his own, through his Second. Gorim sends word to kill Bruntin. If Gorim has men he can trust -- and Gorim is called an honorable man and loyal to the throne -- then the DN can trust them as well.

EDIT: and you could display some savvy in the origin. When dealing with Dace. Also you fighting in the proving is a politically astute decision if you were aiming for the throne. Also the dispute between the noble and scholar.

The Dace one I'd argue, as it's not so much my savvy as the savvy of someone else regarding how to deal with him. I can simply put the pieces together. Which is savvy in a sense.

And indeed, the Proving and the noble/scholar feud is a politically wise move.

This all doesn't change the fact that the Dwarf Noble -- by Orzammar's own societal structure -- allows for him to become king upon returning to the home that exiled him.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 mars 2012 - 05:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

You were not raised in an environment like Orzammar. Endrin very likely had his own brother killed. I have no doubt at all that Trian wanted the DN dead or out of the way as he was a threat to him gaining the throne, which he thinks is his right.

Trian may care for the Aeducan name, but that does not mean he is not willing to kill his siblings if he had to. Political savvy and omniscience are different things. Plus, the DN was young him/herself. Sure the DN failed, but it's not due to stupidity, simply Bhelen being two steps ahead.

In any case, this is a very old argument and I no longer have the energy or time to go into them. That and DA is practically dead to me anyways. I'm glad my old post at least provided you another perspective.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You were not raised in an environment like Orzammar. Endrin very likely had his own brother killed. I have no doubt at all that Trian wanted the DN dead or out of the way as he was a threat to him gaining the throne, which he thinks is his right.

Trian may care for the Aeducan name, but that does not mean he is not willing to kill his siblings if he had to. Political savvy and omniscience are different things. Plus, the DN was young him/herself. Sure the DN failed, but it's not due to stupidity, simply Bhelen being two steps ahead.

Actually, my own family is a lot like the Dwarven nobles of Orzammar. We've had blackmail, deceit, treachery, betrayal, and I think murder. In that, I was raised in that environment that is seen in Orzammar.

You name it, it's probably happened. Especially within the last 10 years. I can trace one of my past family members to being associated with Al Capone himself.

My family is ****ed up like you wouldn't believe. Well, was. We seem to have buried several hatchets recently -- and thankfully I might add.

Anyway, I cannot really ascribe Endrin's brother's death being linked to the man himself, simply because there's a lack of evidence that points to it as being likely. Possible certainly, but there's nothing to really substantiate such a claim other then the line "Endrin became heir after his elder brother died in a Proving".

In any case, this is a very old argument and I no longer have the energy or time to go into them. That and DA is practically dead to me anyways. I'm glad my old post at least provided you another perspective.

Shame that I discovered this thread so long after it was created, as it's an issue I would've enjoyed debating immensely.

Ah well, c'est la vie.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 mars 2012 - 05:19 .

[Corker]

I just replayed part of the DN Origin the other night; I didn't even get to the feast. And yet I felt I had opportunities to show my political chops all over the place - from the first dialogue option.

Wear a shield or not?
Scholar vs. noble: intervene or ignore? On whose side?
Confrontation with Trian: Do as he says? Be polite but firm? Be antagonistic?
Weapons merchant: Order him killed for offending the family, or take the knife? Wear the knife?
Noble hunters: Accept or decline? Have them run off?
Entourage: Accept them or make a fuss about it?
Proving: Fight, don't fight, don't even go?

I felt like the game was going out of its way to give me opportunities to craft my dwarf's public image and the way he presented himself and his family to the world at large.

Granted that few of these decisions have any major gameplay effect. But from an RPG perspective, I felt that I had many opportunities to show off my political chops (or lack of same).

[TEWR]

Corker wrote...

I just replayed part of the DN Origin the other night; I didn't even get to the feast. And yet I felt I had opportunities to show my political chops all over the place - from the first dialogue option.

Wear a shield or not?
Scholar vs. noble: intervene or ignore? On whose side?
Confrontation with Trian: Do as he says? Be polite but firm? Be antagonistic?
Weapons merchant: Order him killed for offending the family, or take the knife? Wear the knife?
Noble hunters: Accept or decline? Have them run off?
Entourage: Accept them or make a fuss about it?
Proving: Fight, don't fight, don't even go?

I felt like the game was going out of its way to give me opportunities to craft my dwarf's public image and the way he presented himself and his family to the world at large.

Granted that few of these decisions have any major gameplay effect. But from an RPG perspective, I felt that I had many opportunities to show off my political chops (or lack of same).

Yeah, it does give you a lot of opportunities. I was mistaken to say that it doesn't give me opportunities earlier -- I've since rectified that part of my post.

But I do think it was a flaw to not accuse Bhelen of what he was planning. Even if he denied it -- and it just looped back to "Will you kill Trian?" -- that'd be fine by me. That would've improved it for me. Because then I could roleplay a politically savvy Dwarf that knew what Bhelen was up to, and decided he wouldn't be Bhelen's pawn.

And then Trian still dies, but my roleplaying would've been preserved, instead of having to have been altered. And I do think a Dwarf Noble should've been able to take the throne upon returning to Orzammar.

[Wulfram]

I find it rather annoying that you can set your Aeducan up to be politically engaged and astute, and then learn that they managed to totally miss that Bhelen had secured the support of half the Assembly.

Missing the extent and purpose of Bhelen's manipulations is fine, but that sort of thing isn't going to happen without leaving some sort of hint - and Bhelen's constructed harmless facade would make it stand out more, since it would seem out of character.

[Klidi]

The first time I played Orzammar, it was with my canon character, male Surana. I'm now replaying it again for my fanfiction, as he now reached Orzammar.

He chose Bhelen. As a mage, raised isolated from the world in the Tower, he didn't know much about politics. But by the time he reached Orzammar, he learned one important thing: never trust any politicians and nobles.

So, he reaches Orzammar and meets Harrowmont. An honest man. Except that... the old king suspiciously died few months after he lost two of his children, and the third fell into the disgrace. And when he died, the only man at his bedside was Harrowmont. The son was not allowed to see his father before the death. Harrowmont says it was the wish of the late king, but there is no proof. There is a letter that he regrets not defending DN against false accusations, but it doesn't say anything like 'Harrownot, I want you to be my successor'. There is NO EVIDENCE that my Warden can see about the old king actually supported him.

Bhelen is also suspected of murder, but (without metagaming) my Warden sees no evidence for that claim, either. In that matter, both of them are equally suspicious for him.

My Warden is a stranger to Orzammar. He doesn't give a damn if castes are dwarven 'tradition'. But, as an elf AND a mage, he doesn't like castes, impossibility to change your fate, regardless your skills or talents. He especially doesn't like the 'caste' of casteless. That they can be beaten or abused or killed, just because they have a brand - it reminds him too much of Templars how mages are treated.

And then he talks to the honest man Harrowmont and finds out he views them as trash. Epic fail, Harrowmont.

Also, my Warden is not an idiot. So he noticed, for example, that there are not many natural food sources in Orzammar. There aren't that many things that can be farmed there. Clothes as well. Cotton, flax... those can be hardly found underground. Orzammar depends on trade with the surface. Without the surface, Orzammar is doomed. Even if they could survive without it, somehow, their life would be much less comfortable. Who supports and is preferred by merchants? Bhelen.

Proving. That was when he started to think seriously about what Zevran said about scared leader who doesn't inspire his followers. All right, he could perhaps understand the one that was blackmailed. But the other one decided not to fight, because he heard rumor that Harrowmont will step down. He wouldn't believe such stupid rumor, if he trusted Harrowmont's strength. And he didn't.

Branka - honest man Harrowmont maybe wasn't as blunt about it as Bhelen, but he also hinted that if she doesn't support him, Branka doesn't need to return. Which only confirmed my Wardens strong suspicions.

When it was time to make decisions, my Warden decided that he can't truly believe into Harrowmont's 'honesty', while at the same time Harrowmont was not a strong enough leader to fight against the Blight. So he chose to crown Bhelen.

And to bully Alistair into increasing taxes on anything related to brewery tenfold, as a revenge for the trouble dwarves caused him. Honestly? If he could really choose, he'd crown Helmi. He thought Helmi was the only dwarf in Orzammar that had brain in his head. But, since that was not possible, Bhelen was better choice - for both his help with Blight and for Orzammar. Neither of them was ideal, but for him, Bhelen seemed like lesser evil.

Because - just at that servant in Tapsters said - he's disgusting, but with him you at least know what you're getting. Unlike OP, my Warden saw that as a GOOD thing. In contrast to Harrowmont. What man of compromise? My Warden always wanted to recommend him to grow a backbone. In time of political and economical crisis in the inside, and the Blight on the outside, Orzammar didn't need 'compromises' but a man with strong will and determination to do something about it. No matter what price. Just like Wardens do, you know.

[Wulfram]

Klidi wrote...

And then he talks to the honest man Harrowmont and finds out he views them as trash. Epic fail, Harrowmont.

Where does Harrowmont say he views them as trash?

He's surprisingly respectful of the Carta, regretting the necessity of their deaths and comparing their loyalty favourably to that shown by some of the nobility

[Klidi]

Wulfram wrote...

Klidi wrote...

And then he talks to the honest man Harrowmont and finds out he views them as trash. Epic fail, Harrowmont.

Where does Harrowmont say he views them as trash?

He's surprisingly respectful of the Carta, regretting the necessity of their deaths and comparing their loyalty favourably to that shown by some of the nobility

Hm, I will have to look up the exact quote.

I don't think he's 'respectful' of Carta or regrets their deaths. He's being diplomatic and follows his 'honest man' agenda. Both of them are doing pre-election campaign: Harrowmont presents himself as supporting dwarven traditions, Bhelen as reformer.

But the result is the same: both want Carta eliminated and both want to use it for their campaign.

Note that Carta is not something new. Yet neither of them gave a damn about it until it started to be interesting for them, until they could see there some profit, an advantage against their opponent.

Harrowmont is just more diplomatic and polite, that's the main difference between them.

[Wulfram]

Klidi wrote...

Harrowmont is just more diplomatic and polite, that's the main difference between them.

Which is a good reason to regard him as the more competent one, likely to deliver the support of the Dwarves for the war, no?

And he has the big virtue of not starting the relationship by trying to trick the Warden into spreading lies.

Modifié par Wulfram, 23 mars 2012 - 05:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Harrowmont is just more diplomatic and polite, that's the main difference between them.

Which is a good reason to regard him as the more competent one, likely to deliver the support of the Dwarves for the war, no?

No.
Deshyrs need to feel a boot on their neck. Aeducan didn't save Orzammar by being polite.