The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Harrowmont's a decent fellow but I wouldn't trust him to lead the combined forces of peanut butter and jelly to attack the village of Toast.
The Complete Explanation as to Why Bhelen Aeducan Sucks
Débuté par
Raonar
, avril 20 2011 05:14
#176
Posté 26 février 2013 - 06:15
TEWR
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So I'm researching some Dragon Age things for no real reason in particular, and I stumbled upon this post of mine. It's quite relevant.
- Riverdaleswhiteflash aime ceci
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#177
Posté 26 février 2013 - 07:02
tklivory
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So I'm researching some Dragon Age things for no real reason in particular, and I stumbled upon this post of mine. It's quite relevant.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Harrowmont's a decent fellow but I wouldn't trust him to lead the combined forces of peanut butter and jelly to attack the village of Toast.
So what you're saying is that because Bhelen has the forces of peanut butter and honey, he shall be triumphant over the village?
#178
Posté 26 février 2013 - 07:09
KnightofPhoenix
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Because Bhelen has enough brain cells to realize that gasp, he would need a knife to pull off this operation.
#179
Posté 26 février 2013 - 08:04
tklivory
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At least we know his forces will be able to stick together.
#180
Posté 27 février 2013 - 05:29
Ulmaric
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[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
[quote]ChainsawNinjaZX wrote...
Killing your political "enemy" is all well and good, but Harrowmont demonstrated that he was willing to follow Bhelen at the paragons behest. Even if the absolute worst case scenario and all-out civil war between Bhelen and Harrowmont supporters happened WITH Harrowmont at the head, Bhelen would still theoretically win over more supporters due to the paragon's choice and still have absolute confidence that he will win kingship. What Bhelen is doing is oppressing not necessarily a minority, but a large group of people that did nothing wrong.[/quote]
Flawed argument.
Harrowmont could accept Bhelens' authority, but others could still rebel in his name, as has happened numerous times in history.
We only need to look at the epilogues to see who succeds and who does not. Harrowmont without golems gets assassinated and Orzammar falls in civil war. Bhelen, without golems, imposes himself. Eliminating his enemies is one such mean. The basic rule to succeed as a leader is actually knowing how to preserve power. [/quote]
It’s not a flawed argument, if anything killing Harrowmont
is what would have incited the rebellion in the first place because of the
unjust killing of their leader. It would
have been wiser to keep Harrowmont as a political captive if anything else.
Besides, I’ve already stated due to the paragon choosing
Bhelen over Harrowmont that he would win any “civil war.” Killing Harrowmont
wasn’t only unnecessary, it was foolish.[quote]
Except it doesn't, which is why merchants are the ones who side with Bhelen.
You assume that noble hosues represent the other castes they act as patrons to when that is not the case. The relationship is co-dependent and the lesser castes have no legal or legitimate means to claim that the noble houses have to represent their interests.
Evidence: HArrowmont in power means less trade. So your argument is moot and irrelevent. [/quote]
There are a few things wrong with your counterpoint, first
of all:
Harrowmont may mean less trade, but that doesn’t mean no
trade. I point this out because merchants (while not able to reach their full
potential) can still trade with the humans as mentioned in the epilogue.
Secondly, while it is true there is no legal or “legitimate”
way for the lower caste to appeal to the higher ones, codes of honor and status
work just as well for the dwarves in making them want to make their house
better. Greed and status may not be the best way to deal with daily affairs,
but I like it better than Bhelen ruling as an absolute authority.[quote]They perpatuate an idioitic system that is driving them to the ground. That is the only argument I need to show its innefficiency.
But I'll give you more examples. Harrowmont with his golems means more caste retrisctions, less trade and casteless getting massacred. Why? Because Harrowmont did exactly what his Assembly friends want him to. [/quote]
Sure, if you give him the golems in the first place. If you don't, none of that nonsense happens.
[quote]Oh really? Because you think the Warden in killing one broodmother can reverse centuries of losses? The Legion of the Dead was the only force that defended Orzammar and they were losing. They lost their citadel and they have no means or manpower to take it back and hold it.
Such arrogance to think your wArden can, in a few days, reverse the tide of a centuries' old conflict. The darkspawn even without a blight are still a mortal threat to the dwarves, as actual warriors and Legionnaires tell you. I'll base my actions on their words, and not yours thank you very much. [/quote]
Is it really arrogance to
think that? Look at all the things the warden has accomplished, killing the
arch demon, uniting the races and people of Ferelden, and protecting the
Arling of Amaranthine. Don’t forget the dragons, the massive amount of
darkspawn, and the spirits of the fade they’ve all bested. But besides these
feats, there’s also this:
http://dragonage.wik...ogue_(Awakening)
Unless you killed the Architect, the deep roads are quiet.
Regardless of what you do in that situation, Kal’Hirol will be reclaimed by the
dwarves for Orzammar. I don’t know about
you, but to me that sounds like progress.
If you don’t want to take my words, take one of your precious
epilogue slides.[quote]Yea tell that to Augustus. Of course there can be personal gain to it, if he does it correctly. [/quote]
If he does it correctly, if everything goes as planned, if actual history is repeated in the game itself, if Bhelen was one to take risk. I don't see this happening.
[quote]In other words a good politician in a political system that is mired in deception and manipulation. [/quote]
So you're praising a man for being a downright deplorable man despite there being plenty of alternatives to being one? You're saying just because his ends justify his means he can get away with being what he is? Alright, he knows how to hold power and he knows how to play a shadow game with politics, but that isn't something I look at as positive.
And as for your claim that the whole political system is this way, the only time I've seen this happen was when it was wrapped up with Bhelen. Harrowmont was on the whole quite honorable and fair.
[quote]Yea here we go with the godwin, generally used by the uneducated.
Hitler was incompetent (he was good at taking power only) and most of his policies inefficient, in addition to being obsessed with an irrational and stupid ideology. Bhelen has no such flaws, so compeltely flawed analogy.
Oh wait, let's see. An ideology that believes a group of people is lesser, that shoudl be boycotted, or even massacred if need be. Hmmm, what kind of system Harrowmont supports again? What does he do with golems again? [/quote]
Bhelen was good at taking power, just like Hilter. Bhelen killed his political adversaries and people who spoke out against him, just like Hitler, Bhelen took a position of absolute power, just like Bhelen.
Also, you need to give Harrowmont the golems for him to do this, and it's worthy of note that it was the clan lords who spurred this action, not Harrowmont alone.
[quote]Clearly not paying attention. They don't care if it's a surface blight, because it doens't concern them as darkspawn start to move to the surface. Between blights, they are always threatened.
You want evidence? The Legion of the Dead was losing ground. They lost their main forteress. Orzammar was getting weaker. Praising the Assembly for perpetuating a system that is ensuring a slow death is nothing short than stupid.[/quote]
I already knew they didn't care that there was a surface blight (even though they're obligated to fight the blight anyway). And it's understandable that the Legion would lose ground as they aren't constantly replenished.
And again, those epilogue slides I linked clearly show that Orzammar will live against the darkspawn.
Besides, the system can still change without Bhelen. With Harrowmont dead they'll get a new king that could possibly change things. At the moment, it's an unknown, but I like that unknown several times better than Bhelen.
Because people are such easy beings to categorize. One can't possibly be personally ambitious and actually care for the commonwealth of the majority of his people.
One moment of anger does not undo a man whose other polocies are completely rational. [/quote]
I could have policies dictating that I am a completely altruistic person. Even if I have hundreds of these, having those wouldn't excuse me killing an important political figure, now would it? Your argument is weak and it's clear that Bhelen is a horrible person. Not once have I as a PC seen Bhelen being compassionate or showing love, and only once did I see evidence that he MIGHT be capable of such emotions.
[quote]Wrong. Harrowmont without golems is assassinated and once again Orzammar finds itself without king and in a crisis. In other words, fail. [/quote]
"Some claim it was poison, while others say it was a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passes away."
While it’s indisputable that he died, the reason why was
never truly discovered. One could say that he was weak for caring about his
home and not being able to make the assembly do his bidding, but we can see
what kind of man he is at the very least, which is a compassionate and caring
one.
As for crisis, sure they’re out a king, but this wouldn’t be
the first time. If anything they have potential for a better one and that
sounds good to me. Sure, it could end up being another Bhelen, but if it is, at
least I tried to stop a self-absorbed power grabber away from the throne while
I could. [quote]Except he wins, and Harrowmont loses.
With golems, Harrowmont wins and makes things worse. Bravo to you. [/quote]
Harrowmont dies, but that doesn't necessarily mean he "losses" anything.
[quote]I couldn't care less what you think "should" be, these are the facts now. Either base your arguments on them, or don't argue.
At the end of the day, you're picking a guy who can't be supported either ethically seeing what he does and what system he supports, or logically. [/quote]
Premise one: Bhelen is unethical and believes the ends
justify the means
Premise two: Bhelen killed your brother and got you exiled
in order to obtain power, and possibly killed your father.
Conclusion: Bhelen can’t be trusted and is not a good
candidate for rule.
Ehtically gets a bit tricky as ethics are somewhat debatable, but as far as following rules goes, Harrowmont more than has Bhelen beat. [quote]Yes, the Legion losing its fortress. Orzammar facing a man shortage and still banning the castless from the military and even work. Them discriminating and abusing the one people who are keeping Orzammar alive (surfacer traders)...etc.
The Assembly is doing so well.
Especially when they have free rein to do what they want, when the idiot Harrowmont has enough power to show his true colors. A regressive incompetent idiot who uses golems to massacre his own people (except he doens't think casteless are people), and make the caste system even worse.
I applaud you. Your misguided and empty ideals are surely worth more than the survival and growth of an entire nation. [/quote]
Before I sum up, I would like to state that your personal attacks on my intelligence and Ideology do your arguments and your character no credit.
Secondly, calling Harrowmont an incompetent idiot seems like a very visceral reaction. There are some very obvious downsides to picking him, but doing so doesn't doom Orzammar to extinction, it doesn't mean social reform is impossible, and it doesn't mean they will totally cut off from the surface (all of this supported from the epilogue slides).
Lastly, people have died for my "empty and misguided" ideals. People have died in the name of fairness and honor, and while that may not be the most practical of choices, living without these traits is a fate worse than death. Maybe one day you'll learn that.
[quote]ChainsawNinjaZX wrote...
Killing your political "enemy" is all well and good, but Harrowmont demonstrated that he was willing to follow Bhelen at the paragons behest. Even if the absolute worst case scenario and all-out civil war between Bhelen and Harrowmont supporters happened WITH Harrowmont at the head, Bhelen would still theoretically win over more supporters due to the paragon's choice and still have absolute confidence that he will win kingship. What Bhelen is doing is oppressing not necessarily a minority, but a large group of people that did nothing wrong.[/quote]
Flawed argument.
Harrowmont could accept Bhelens' authority, but others could still rebel in his name, as has happened numerous times in history.
We only need to look at the epilogues to see who succeds and who does not. Harrowmont without golems gets assassinated and Orzammar falls in civil war. Bhelen, without golems, imposes himself. Eliminating his enemies is one such mean. The basic rule to succeed as a leader is actually knowing how to preserve power. [/quote]
It’s not a flawed argument, if anything killing Harrowmont
is what would have incited the rebellion in the first place because of the
unjust killing of their leader. It would
have been wiser to keep Harrowmont as a political captive if anything else.
Besides, I’ve already stated due to the paragon choosing
Bhelen over Harrowmont that he would win any “civil war.” Killing Harrowmont
wasn’t only unnecessary, it was foolish.[quote]
Except it doesn't, which is why merchants are the ones who side with Bhelen.
You assume that noble hosues represent the other castes they act as patrons to when that is not the case. The relationship is co-dependent and the lesser castes have no legal or legitimate means to claim that the noble houses have to represent their interests.
Evidence: HArrowmont in power means less trade. So your argument is moot and irrelevent. [/quote]
There are a few things wrong with your counterpoint, first
of all:
Harrowmont may mean less trade, but that doesn’t mean no
trade. I point this out because merchants (while not able to reach their full
potential) can still trade with the humans as mentioned in the epilogue.
Secondly, while it is true there is no legal or “legitimate”
way for the lower caste to appeal to the higher ones, codes of honor and status
work just as well for the dwarves in making them want to make their house
better. Greed and status may not be the best way to deal with daily affairs,
but I like it better than Bhelen ruling as an absolute authority.[quote]They perpatuate an idioitic system that is driving them to the ground. That is the only argument I need to show its innefficiency.
But I'll give you more examples. Harrowmont with his golems means more caste retrisctions, less trade and casteless getting massacred. Why? Because Harrowmont did exactly what his Assembly friends want him to. [/quote]
Sure, if you give him the golems in the first place. If you don't, none of that nonsense happens.
[quote]Oh really? Because you think the Warden in killing one broodmother can reverse centuries of losses? The Legion of the Dead was the only force that defended Orzammar and they were losing. They lost their citadel and they have no means or manpower to take it back and hold it.
Such arrogance to think your wArden can, in a few days, reverse the tide of a centuries' old conflict. The darkspawn even without a blight are still a mortal threat to the dwarves, as actual warriors and Legionnaires tell you. I'll base my actions on their words, and not yours thank you very much. [/quote]
Is it really arrogance to
think that? Look at all the things the warden has accomplished, killing the
arch demon, uniting the races and people of Ferelden, and protecting the
Arling of Amaranthine. Don’t forget the dragons, the massive amount of
darkspawn, and the spirits of the fade they’ve all bested. But besides these
feats, there’s also this:
http://dragonage.wik...ogue_(Awakening)
Unless you killed the Architect, the deep roads are quiet.
Regardless of what you do in that situation, Kal’Hirol will be reclaimed by the
dwarves for Orzammar. I don’t know about
you, but to me that sounds like progress.
If you don’t want to take my words, take one of your precious
epilogue slides.[quote]Yea tell that to Augustus. Of course there can be personal gain to it, if he does it correctly. [/quote]
If he does it correctly, if everything goes as planned, if actual history is repeated in the game itself, if Bhelen was one to take risk. I don't see this happening.
[quote]In other words a good politician in a political system that is mired in deception and manipulation. [/quote]
So you're praising a man for being a downright deplorable man despite there being plenty of alternatives to being one? You're saying just because his ends justify his means he can get away with being what he is? Alright, he knows how to hold power and he knows how to play a shadow game with politics, but that isn't something I look at as positive.
And as for your claim that the whole political system is this way, the only time I've seen this happen was when it was wrapped up with Bhelen. Harrowmont was on the whole quite honorable and fair.
[quote]Yea here we go with the godwin, generally used by the uneducated.
Hitler was incompetent (he was good at taking power only) and most of his policies inefficient, in addition to being obsessed with an irrational and stupid ideology. Bhelen has no such flaws, so compeltely flawed analogy.
Oh wait, let's see. An ideology that believes a group of people is lesser, that shoudl be boycotted, or even massacred if need be. Hmmm, what kind of system Harrowmont supports again? What does he do with golems again? [/quote]
Bhelen was good at taking power, just like Hilter. Bhelen killed his political adversaries and people who spoke out against him, just like Hitler, Bhelen took a position of absolute power, just like Bhelen.
Also, you need to give Harrowmont the golems for him to do this, and it's worthy of note that it was the clan lords who spurred this action, not Harrowmont alone.
[quote]Clearly not paying attention. They don't care if it's a surface blight, because it doens't concern them as darkspawn start to move to the surface. Between blights, they are always threatened.
You want evidence? The Legion of the Dead was losing ground. They lost their main forteress. Orzammar was getting weaker. Praising the Assembly for perpetuating a system that is ensuring a slow death is nothing short than stupid.[/quote]
I already knew they didn't care that there was a surface blight (even though they're obligated to fight the blight anyway). And it's understandable that the Legion would lose ground as they aren't constantly replenished.
And again, those epilogue slides I linked clearly show that Orzammar will live against the darkspawn.
Besides, the system can still change without Bhelen. With Harrowmont dead they'll get a new king that could possibly change things. At the moment, it's an unknown, but I like that unknown several times better than Bhelen.
Because people are such easy beings to categorize. One can't possibly be personally ambitious and actually care for the commonwealth of the majority of his people.
One moment of anger does not undo a man whose other polocies are completely rational. [/quote]
I could have policies dictating that I am a completely altruistic person. Even if I have hundreds of these, having those wouldn't excuse me killing an important political figure, now would it? Your argument is weak and it's clear that Bhelen is a horrible person. Not once have I as a PC seen Bhelen being compassionate or showing love, and only once did I see evidence that he MIGHT be capable of such emotions.
[quote]Wrong. Harrowmont without golems is assassinated and once again Orzammar finds itself without king and in a crisis. In other words, fail. [/quote]
"Some claim it was poison, while others say it was a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passes away."
While it’s indisputable that he died, the reason why was
never truly discovered. One could say that he was weak for caring about his
home and not being able to make the assembly do his bidding, but we can see
what kind of man he is at the very least, which is a compassionate and caring
one.
As for crisis, sure they’re out a king, but this wouldn’t be
the first time. If anything they have potential for a better one and that
sounds good to me. Sure, it could end up being another Bhelen, but if it is, at
least I tried to stop a self-absorbed power grabber away from the throne while
I could. [quote]Except he wins, and Harrowmont loses.
With golems, Harrowmont wins and makes things worse. Bravo to you. [/quote]
Harrowmont dies, but that doesn't necessarily mean he "losses" anything.
[quote]I couldn't care less what you think "should" be, these are the facts now. Either base your arguments on them, or don't argue.
At the end of the day, you're picking a guy who can't be supported either ethically seeing what he does and what system he supports, or logically. [/quote]
Premise one: Bhelen is unethical and believes the ends
justify the means
Premise two: Bhelen killed your brother and got you exiled
in order to obtain power, and possibly killed your father.
Conclusion: Bhelen can’t be trusted and is not a good
candidate for rule.
Ehtically gets a bit tricky as ethics are somewhat debatable, but as far as following rules goes, Harrowmont more than has Bhelen beat. [quote]Yes, the Legion losing its fortress. Orzammar facing a man shortage and still banning the castless from the military and even work. Them discriminating and abusing the one people who are keeping Orzammar alive (surfacer traders)...etc.
The Assembly is doing so well.
Especially when they have free rein to do what they want, when the idiot Harrowmont has enough power to show his true colors. A regressive incompetent idiot who uses golems to massacre his own people (except he doens't think casteless are people), and make the caste system even worse.
I applaud you. Your misguided and empty ideals are surely worth more than the survival and growth of an entire nation. [/quote]
Before I sum up, I would like to state that your personal attacks on my intelligence and Ideology do your arguments and your character no credit.
Secondly, calling Harrowmont an incompetent idiot seems like a very visceral reaction. There are some very obvious downsides to picking him, but doing so doesn't doom Orzammar to extinction, it doesn't mean social reform is impossible, and it doesn't mean they will totally cut off from the surface (all of this supported from the epilogue slides).
Lastly, people have died for my "empty and misguided" ideals. People have died in the name of fairness and honor, and while that may not be the most practical of choices, living without these traits is a fate worse than death. Maybe one day you'll learn that.
Modifié par ChainsawNinjaZX, 27 février 2013 - 05:30 .
#181
Posté 27 février 2013 - 08:31
KnightofPhoenix
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- Members
- 21 527 messages
[quote]ChainsawNinjaZX wrote...
It’s not a flawed argument, if anything killing Harrowmont
is what would have incited the rebellion in the first place because of the
unjust killing of their leader. [/quote]
Entirely irrelevent as Bhelen defeats them with ease.
[quote]
Harrowmont may mean less trade, but that doesn’t mean no
trade. I point this out because merchants (while not able to reach their full
potential) can still trade with the humans as mentioned in the epilogue. [/quote]
So that makes it better. No trade at all or less trade to the point of it being non-existent. Either is stupid.
[quote]
Secondly, while it is true there is no legal or “legitimate”
way for the lower caste to appeal to the higher ones, codes of honor and status
work just as well for the dwarves in making them want to make their house
better. Greed and status may not be the best way to deal with daily affairs,[/quote]
Which is why it worked so well for centuries right? The castes have such great rights.
[quote]
Sure, if you give him the golems in the first place. If you don't, none of that nonsense happens.[/quote]
Except he fails in the alternative. Well done either way.
[quote]
Is it really arrogance to
think that? Look at all the things the warden has accomplished, killing the
arch demon, uniting the races and people of Ferelden, and protecting the
Arling of Amaranthine. [/quote]
Irrelevant, as a surface blight is a compeltely different matter than an omni-present threat.
[quote]
Unless you killed the Architect, the deep roads are quiet.
Regardless of what you do in that situation, Kal’Hirol will be reclaimed by the
dwarves for Orzammar. [/quote]
Which as history will point out is simply a temporary thing, one which you can never anticipate in the game itself anyways.
The darkspanw will return as they have for a thousand years and there is no reason to believe otherwise. In fact DA2 hinted at it.
[quote]
if he does it correctly, if everything goes as planned, if actual history is repeated in the game itself, if Bhelen was one to take risk. I don't see this happening.[/quote]
Because everything Bhelen did was not taking risk? lol
[quote]
So you're praising a man for being a downright deplorable man despite there being plenty of alternatives to being one?[/quote]
Give me the alternatives, and before you do, go study history and politics.
And before pulling off miracles, know that whatever pertinent alternatives you can come up with (which I doubt you will), it's still a choice between Bhelen who prodives results and HArrowmont who's a complete idot and failure.
[quote]
And as for your claim that the whole political system is this way, the only time I've seen this happen was when it was wrapped up with Bhelen. Harrowmont was on the whole quite honorable and fair. [/quote]
You evidently didn't listen to Duncan talking or read anything.
Nor did you pay attention in the DN origin.
[quote]
Bhelen was good at taking power, just like Hilter. [/quote]
Facepalm, yes because everyone good at taking power must be like Hitler.
[quote]
Bhelen killed his political adversaries and people who spoke out against him, just like Hitler[/quote]
Facepalm, yes because everyone who did that (aka 90% of medieval rulers) must be like Hitler.
[quote]
Bhelen took a position of absolute power, just like Bhelen. [/quote]
facepalm, and herein lies the ignorance. Bhelen is authoritarian. Hitler is totalitarian. If you don't know the differences between the two, then go read up.
Which you really should do considering how superficial your understanding is of history, for comparing a medieval authoritarian reformist monarch, with a modern totalitarian racist ideologue who was (or pretended to be) *socially conservative and traditional*.
[quote]
Also, you need to give Harrowmont the golems for him to do this, and it's worthy of note that it was the clan lords who spurred this action, not Harrowmont alone.[/quote]
Irrelevent, either Harrowmont came up with it or was stupid enough to carry on with it.
And giving him the golems is revealing of his character. He's a repressive, regressive incompetent fool. Your entire argument is thus proven to be compeltely incorrect. Well done.
[quote]
I already knew they didn't care that there was a surface blight (even though they're obligated to fight the blight anyway). And it's understandable that the Legion would lose ground as they aren't constantly replenished. [/quote]
Yea I wonder why. Oh right, because the idiot Assembly that you and Harrowmont seem too fond of licking their boots keep a system that can't keep their manpower replenished. Well done.
[quote]
Besides, the system can still change without Bhelen. With Harrowmont dead they'll get a new king that could possibly change things. At the moment, it's an unknown, but I like that unknown several times better than Bhelen. [/quote]
Yes let's bet it all on a what if. Well done.
Especially when that same assembly just proved that not only is it conservative, it's also regressive. Why?
Because Harrowmont being in power, who is said to lsiten to the Assembly, means regressive policies.
So yes, continue to base everything on this impotent idiotic body.
[quote]
I could have policies dictating that I am a completely altruistic person. Even if I have hundreds of these, having those wouldn't excuse me killing an important political figure, now would it?[/quote]
Yes it would, to send a clear message. Because they don't live in lala land.
[quote]
Your argument is weak and it's clear that Bhelen is a horrible person. [/quote]
Having those two premises in the same sentence is hilarious. Either come up with relevent and tangible arguments that go beyond the intellect of a 5 year old child "he's a howible pewson!", showing me with quantifable factors as to how in any way Harrowmont provides better *results*, or just stop because this is embarrasing.
[quote]
Not once have I as a PC seen Bhelen being compassionate or showing love, and only once did I see evidence that he MIGHT be capable of such emotions.[/quote]
Well if that's how you measure leaders, good on you.
Grown ups do it differently.
[quote]
"Some claim it was poison, while others say it was a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passes away."
While it’s indisputable that he died, the reason why was
never truly discovered. One could say that he was weak for caring about his
home and not being able to make the assembly do his bidding, but we can see
what kind of man he is at the very least, which is a compassionate and caring
one.[/quote]
We see him as a complete and utter failure. I couldnt' care less about what person he is (though lol caring and he ends up massacring his people, keep ignoring that in your cognitive dissonance).
If he survived with golems, but died without, there is only one logical concluson: he was too weak to maintain power without golems.
Golems that he uses to massacre his people. Again, I can't say this enough, wel done on being such a great judge of character, keep spewing how compassoniate he is.
[quote]
If anything they have potential for a better one and that
sounds good to me. Sure, it could end up being another Bhelen, but if it is, at
least I tried to stop a self-absorbed power grabber away from the throne while
I could.[/quote]
Yea well done, I'm sure the people of ORzammar would appreciate you betting on their future.
[quote]
Premise one: Bhelen is unethical and believes the ends
justify the means[/quote]
Welcone to reality and a susbtantial number of the greatest leaders in human history.
[quote]
Premise two: Bhelen killed your brother and got you exiled
in order to obtain power, and possibly killed your father.[/quote]
Cry me a river. Trian was an imbecile and so was Endrin.
Bhelen wouldn't be the first to gain power in such a way and wwon't be the last. Completely irrelevent to the results.
[quote]
Conclusion: Bhelen can’t be trusted and is not a good
candidate for rule.[/quote]
I trust him to fulfill his policies, which are good for both him and Orzammar. That's all the trust I need.
I can't trust a weakling fool on the otherhand.
[quote]
Before I sum up, I would like to state that your personal attacks on my intelligence and Ideology do your arguments and your character no credit. [/quote]
I point out stupidity when I see it, I'm perfectly fine with it being a part of my character.
[quote]
Secondly, calling Harrowmont an incompetent idiot seems like a very visceral reaction. There are some very obvious downsides to picking him, but doing so doesn't doom Orzammar to extinction, it doesn't mean social reform is impossible, and it doesn't mean they will totally cut off from the surface (all of this supported from the epilogue slides).[/quote]
A- HArrowmont fails to live up to the pressure, dies, and a crisis starts all over again. Whatever miracle happens later is compeltely irrelevent to Harrowmont's performance as a king. Infact you're betting on him failing.
B- OR HArrowmont establishes his power, reduces trade, restricts the castes, bans the casteless from the commons, and then sends the golems that should be fighting darkspawn to massacre them.
So yes, he's a complete and utter incompetent imbecile and so are those who defend him.
[quote]
Lastly, people have died for my "empty and misguided" ideals. People have died in the name of fairness and honor, and while that may not be the most practical of choices, living without these traits is a fate worse than death. Maybe one day you'll learn that.
[/quote]
Those are not the ones who changed history. They were not the leaders. Let alone the leaders of a species that is in a mortal decline.
I have nothign to learn from someone whose knowldge of history is clearly superficial, if even existent.
It’s not a flawed argument, if anything killing Harrowmont
is what would have incited the rebellion in the first place because of the
unjust killing of their leader. [/quote]
Entirely irrelevent as Bhelen defeats them with ease.
[quote]
Harrowmont may mean less trade, but that doesn’t mean no
trade. I point this out because merchants (while not able to reach their full
potential) can still trade with the humans as mentioned in the epilogue. [/quote]
So that makes it better. No trade at all or less trade to the point of it being non-existent. Either is stupid.
[quote]
Secondly, while it is true there is no legal or “legitimate”
way for the lower caste to appeal to the higher ones, codes of honor and status
work just as well for the dwarves in making them want to make their house
better. Greed and status may not be the best way to deal with daily affairs,[/quote]
Which is why it worked so well for centuries right? The castes have such great rights.
[quote]
Sure, if you give him the golems in the first place. If you don't, none of that nonsense happens.[/quote]
Except he fails in the alternative. Well done either way.
[quote]
Is it really arrogance to
think that? Look at all the things the warden has accomplished, killing the
arch demon, uniting the races and people of Ferelden, and protecting the
Arling of Amaranthine. [/quote]
Irrelevant, as a surface blight is a compeltely different matter than an omni-present threat.
[quote]
Unless you killed the Architect, the deep roads are quiet.
Regardless of what you do in that situation, Kal’Hirol will be reclaimed by the
dwarves for Orzammar. [/quote]
Which as history will point out is simply a temporary thing, one which you can never anticipate in the game itself anyways.
The darkspanw will return as they have for a thousand years and there is no reason to believe otherwise. In fact DA2 hinted at it.
[quote]
if he does it correctly, if everything goes as planned, if actual history is repeated in the game itself, if Bhelen was one to take risk. I don't see this happening.[/quote]
Because everything Bhelen did was not taking risk? lol
[quote]
So you're praising a man for being a downright deplorable man despite there being plenty of alternatives to being one?[/quote]
Give me the alternatives, and before you do, go study history and politics.
And before pulling off miracles, know that whatever pertinent alternatives you can come up with (which I doubt you will), it's still a choice between Bhelen who prodives results and HArrowmont who's a complete idot and failure.
[quote]
And as for your claim that the whole political system is this way, the only time I've seen this happen was when it was wrapped up with Bhelen. Harrowmont was on the whole quite honorable and fair. [/quote]
You evidently didn't listen to Duncan talking or read anything.
Nor did you pay attention in the DN origin.
[quote]
Bhelen was good at taking power, just like Hilter. [/quote]
Facepalm, yes because everyone good at taking power must be like Hitler.
[quote]
Bhelen killed his political adversaries and people who spoke out against him, just like Hitler[/quote]
Facepalm, yes because everyone who did that (aka 90% of medieval rulers) must be like Hitler.
[quote]
Bhelen took a position of absolute power, just like Bhelen. [/quote]
facepalm, and herein lies the ignorance. Bhelen is authoritarian. Hitler is totalitarian. If you don't know the differences between the two, then go read up.
Which you really should do considering how superficial your understanding is of history, for comparing a medieval authoritarian reformist monarch, with a modern totalitarian racist ideologue who was (or pretended to be) *socially conservative and traditional*.
[quote]
Also, you need to give Harrowmont the golems for him to do this, and it's worthy of note that it was the clan lords who spurred this action, not Harrowmont alone.[/quote]
Irrelevent, either Harrowmont came up with it or was stupid enough to carry on with it.
And giving him the golems is revealing of his character. He's a repressive, regressive incompetent fool. Your entire argument is thus proven to be compeltely incorrect. Well done.
[quote]
I already knew they didn't care that there was a surface blight (even though they're obligated to fight the blight anyway). And it's understandable that the Legion would lose ground as they aren't constantly replenished. [/quote]
Yea I wonder why. Oh right, because the idiot Assembly that you and Harrowmont seem too fond of licking their boots keep a system that can't keep their manpower replenished. Well done.
[quote]
Besides, the system can still change without Bhelen. With Harrowmont dead they'll get a new king that could possibly change things. At the moment, it's an unknown, but I like that unknown several times better than Bhelen. [/quote]
Yes let's bet it all on a what if. Well done.
Especially when that same assembly just proved that not only is it conservative, it's also regressive. Why?
Because Harrowmont being in power, who is said to lsiten to the Assembly, means regressive policies.
So yes, continue to base everything on this impotent idiotic body.
[quote]
I could have policies dictating that I am a completely altruistic person. Even if I have hundreds of these, having those wouldn't excuse me killing an important political figure, now would it?[/quote]
Yes it would, to send a clear message. Because they don't live in lala land.
[quote]
Your argument is weak and it's clear that Bhelen is a horrible person. [/quote]
Having those two premises in the same sentence is hilarious. Either come up with relevent and tangible arguments that go beyond the intellect of a 5 year old child "he's a howible pewson!", showing me with quantifable factors as to how in any way Harrowmont provides better *results*, or just stop because this is embarrasing.
[quote]
Not once have I as a PC seen Bhelen being compassionate or showing love, and only once did I see evidence that he MIGHT be capable of such emotions.[/quote]
Well if that's how you measure leaders, good on you.
Grown ups do it differently.
[quote]
"Some claim it was poison, while others say it was a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passes away."
While it’s indisputable that he died, the reason why was
never truly discovered. One could say that he was weak for caring about his
home and not being able to make the assembly do his bidding, but we can see
what kind of man he is at the very least, which is a compassionate and caring
one.[/quote]
We see him as a complete and utter failure. I couldnt' care less about what person he is (though lol caring and he ends up massacring his people, keep ignoring that in your cognitive dissonance).
If he survived with golems, but died without, there is only one logical concluson: he was too weak to maintain power without golems.
Golems that he uses to massacre his people. Again, I can't say this enough, wel done on being such a great judge of character, keep spewing how compassoniate he is.
[quote]
If anything they have potential for a better one and that
sounds good to me. Sure, it could end up being another Bhelen, but if it is, at
least I tried to stop a self-absorbed power grabber away from the throne while
I could.[/quote]
Yea well done, I'm sure the people of ORzammar would appreciate you betting on their future.
[quote]
Premise one: Bhelen is unethical and believes the ends
justify the means[/quote]
Welcone to reality and a susbtantial number of the greatest leaders in human history.
[quote]
Premise two: Bhelen killed your brother and got you exiled
in order to obtain power, and possibly killed your father.[/quote]
Cry me a river. Trian was an imbecile and so was Endrin.
Bhelen wouldn't be the first to gain power in such a way and wwon't be the last. Completely irrelevent to the results.
[quote]
Conclusion: Bhelen can’t be trusted and is not a good
candidate for rule.[/quote]
I trust him to fulfill his policies, which are good for both him and Orzammar. That's all the trust I need.
I can't trust a weakling fool on the otherhand.
[quote]
Before I sum up, I would like to state that your personal attacks on my intelligence and Ideology do your arguments and your character no credit. [/quote]
I point out stupidity when I see it, I'm perfectly fine with it being a part of my character.
[quote]
Secondly, calling Harrowmont an incompetent idiot seems like a very visceral reaction. There are some very obvious downsides to picking him, but doing so doesn't doom Orzammar to extinction, it doesn't mean social reform is impossible, and it doesn't mean they will totally cut off from the surface (all of this supported from the epilogue slides).[/quote]
A- HArrowmont fails to live up to the pressure, dies, and a crisis starts all over again. Whatever miracle happens later is compeltely irrelevent to Harrowmont's performance as a king. Infact you're betting on him failing.
B- OR HArrowmont establishes his power, reduces trade, restricts the castes, bans the casteless from the commons, and then sends the golems that should be fighting darkspawn to massacre them.
So yes, he's a complete and utter incompetent imbecile and so are those who defend him.
[quote]
Lastly, people have died for my "empty and misguided" ideals. People have died in the name of fairness and honor, and while that may not be the most practical of choices, living without these traits is a fate worse than death. Maybe one day you'll learn that.
[/quote]
Those are not the ones who changed history. They were not the leaders. Let alone the leaders of a species that is in a mortal decline.
I have nothign to learn from someone whose knowldge of history is clearly superficial, if even existent.
#182
Posté 27 février 2013 - 08:42
tklivory
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I would also like to say that most people - the *vast* majority of people that have ever lived - lived in countries and under governments without 'fairness and honor'. And many people alive in the 'free world' today live without 'fairness and honor' because they are ignored by the very systems that claim to give them 'fairness and honor'. Look under the surface of history, and you will learn that 'fairness and honor' and cries of 'Liberte' are but tools of rulers and governments, and often poorly wielded at that. There is no glory in death in battle, EVER, whatever cause you fight for. Cailan should have taught you that.
If you asked those people who have lived without 'fairness and honor' if they would prefer life *without* fairness and honor to death *with* it, I'm extraordinarily confident that the vast majority would call your over-the-top hyperbolic statement what it is and choose life, and survive no matter what.
So please, leave that hyperbole at the door in a serious discussion of politics, or I shall be forced to dispatch my forces of peanut butter and honey to your doorstep. And I will have a knife.
If you asked those people who have lived without 'fairness and honor' if they would prefer life *without* fairness and honor to death *with* it, I'm extraordinarily confident that the vast majority would call your over-the-top hyperbolic statement what it is and choose life, and survive no matter what.
So please, leave that hyperbole at the door in a serious discussion of politics, or I shall be forced to dispatch my forces of peanut butter and honey to your doorstep. And I will have a knife.
#183
Posté 27 février 2013 - 08:48
KnightofPhoenix
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And what I find hilarious, is even in his ideals, he has them completely distorted.
He supports a system that considers a substantial number of people *non-persons*, with no rights whatsoever, who are considered as trash literally. He supports a system that forbids almost any form of social mobility barring extraordinary feats that the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to pull off.
He supports a man who, if given the power, massacres his own people instead of sending the golems to fight the darkspawn in the frontlines.
And yet he has the audacity to still spew "honor and fairness" (you know, the higher ideals nobility always liked to claim as they screw everyone else over)?
And then expects me to show him any kind of respect or to take him seriously in a political discussion, just as he resorts to a godwin without 0 knowledge of what he is actually talking about?
He supports a system that considers a substantial number of people *non-persons*, with no rights whatsoever, who are considered as trash literally. He supports a system that forbids almost any form of social mobility barring extraordinary feats that the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to pull off.
He supports a man who, if given the power, massacres his own people instead of sending the golems to fight the darkspawn in the frontlines.
And yet he has the audacity to still spew "honor and fairness" (you know, the higher ideals nobility always liked to claim as they screw everyone else over)?
And then expects me to show him any kind of respect or to take him seriously in a political discussion, just as he resorts to a godwin without 0 knowledge of what he is actually talking about?
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 février 2013 - 08:49 .
#184
Posté 27 février 2013 - 08:50
TEWR
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Trian was an imbecile and so was Endrin
I don't know that they're imbeciles, but they're certainly far too traditional given how they handle certain things -- like Endrin's comments on Kal-Sharok.
That can be considered imbecilic, but they're not fools when it comes to other things. Endrin did convince his elder brother to fight in a Proving that got him killed, thus elevating Endrin's position as heir to the throne. And Trian does know that he isn't loved by the people, which indicates that he has his own network in Orzammar.
Related to Trian, I think Trian's hurt if the Dwarf Noble was actually going to go through with killing him, given his dialogue. Certainly, he struck me as loving his family a great deal even if he always was an **** to them. Shame Bhelen manipulated Trian for so long. If only Trian had seen that Bhelen was trying to eliminate the both of them in one fell swoop, like my DN had seen.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 février 2013 - 08:53 .
#185
Posté 27 février 2013 - 08:55
TEWR
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tklivory wrote...
So please, leave that hyperbole at the door in a serious discussion of politics, or I shall be forced to dispatch my forces of peanut butter and honey to your doorstep. And I will have a knife.
Yay!
So what you're saying is that because Bhelen has the forces of peanut butter and honey, he shall be triumphant over the village?
Indeed. He knows the perfect ratio of peanut butter to jelly to use for the assault on Toast, and as KoP said understands that a knife is a necessity.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 février 2013 - 09:12 .
#186
Posté 27 février 2013 - 09:25
shepard1038
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I always chose Bhelen, because he is a stronger leader than Harrowmont. And he gives more rights to the lower caste and allows them to fight the darkspawn. He increases trade with the surface which boost Orzammar economy and stregthens surface trade. So now you have better relations with the surface, a better economy, a bigger army to fight the darkspawn and the lower caste has more right which in turn allows the dwarves to reclaim more thaigs and are better armed and prepared to fight the darkspawn.
#187
Posté 27 février 2013 - 10:18
TEWR
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Hey KoP, do you think the Kal'Hirol epilogue where Lady Helmi leads her House's personal forces to reclaim the thaig contradicts Bhelen's disbanding of the Assembly and his talks of having the army of Orzammar answer to the king -- as Eithnar Bemot decreed was supposed to happen in times of war, which is what the Dwarves are in with the Darkspawn?
#188
Posté 27 février 2013 - 05:27
KnightofPhoenix
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Yea, because bioware naturally doesn't care.
But I guess one could make the argument that House Helmi became strong allies of Bhelen, who in turn appointed them to lead this expedition in his name. De jure at least, they wouldn't be acting as if it's their personal force.
But I guess one could make the argument that House Helmi became strong allies of Bhelen, who in turn appointed them to lead this expedition in his name. De jure at least, they wouldn't be acting as if it's their personal force.
#189
Posté 27 février 2013 - 08:44
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
ChainsawNinjaZX wrote...
Premise two: Bhelen killed your brother and got you exiled
in order to obtain power, and possibly killed your father.
Cry me a river. Trian was an imbecile and so was Endrin.
Bhelen wouldn't be the first to gain power in such a way and wwon't be the last. Completely irrelevent to the results.
I would not say it's completely irrelevant. I would say that it needs good results to justify it, though since Bhelen certainly manages that...
#190
Posté 27 février 2013 - 09:19
Warden Commander David
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I choose who I choose based on the impression of the two during those mission...epilogue be damned. I NEVER metagame.
Anyways...Orzammar can't settle this...and it takes an outsider just a few hours to crown a new king. Orzammar has more problems than just the difference between Harrowmont's rule and Bhelen's rule.
They are the only people with a problem that I really only care to solve just because I need their aid during the blight.
I help everyone else because I want to help them.
Anyways...Orzammar can't settle this...and it takes an outsider just a few hours to crown a new king. Orzammar has more problems than just the difference between Harrowmont's rule and Bhelen's rule.
They are the only people with a problem that I really only care to solve just because I need their aid during the blight.
I help everyone else because I want to help them.
Modifié par Warden Commander David, 27 février 2013 - 09:22 .
- DeathScepter aime ceci
#191
Posté 27 février 2013 - 09:31
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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Warden Commander David wrote...
I choose who I choose based on the impression of the two during those mission...epilogue be damned. I NEVER metagame.
If you come in with Zevran, or if you have a DC or a particularly forgiving DN, you can justify it on RP grounds. On the other hand, that only accounts for half of the Wardens I sided with Bhelen as.
Anyways...Orzammar can't settle this...and it takes an outsider just a few hours to crown a new king. Orzammar has more problems than just the difference between Harrowmont's rule and Bhelen's rule.
Yes and no. Essentially what this is is a symptom of everything else. Orzammar made them.
Edit: Also, I was under the impression that the Warden is supposed to have spent more than a few hours in the Deep Roads, according to in-game time which is admittedly quite difficult to perceive.
They are the only people with a problem that I really only care to solve just because I need their aid during the blight.
I help everyone else because I want to help them.
I understand perfectly.
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 février 2013 - 09:46 .
#192
Posté 27 février 2013 - 09:45
TEWR
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yea, because bioware naturally doesn't care.
But I guess one could make the argument that House Helmi became strong allies of Bhelen, who in turn appointed them to lead this expedition in his name. De jure at least, they wouldn't be acting as if it's their personal force.
That's what I thought. It was going to be the next segment of my Worlds in the Deep thread, but I wasn't sure if it was a valid thingy.
#193
Posté 27 février 2013 - 09:46
KnightofPhoenix
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Warden Commander David wrote...
I choose who I choose based on the impression of the two during those mission...epilogue be damned. I NEVER metagame.
Indeed, neither do I.
I can understand why someone would pick HArrowmont without metagaming. There are some compelling reasons.
What I take severe issue with however is claiming Harrowmont is the better option while taking the epilogues into account.
- mousestalker aime ceci
#194
Posté 21 juillet 2014 - 09:15
LeeAmnesia
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Just thought I would clarify what deus ex machina actually means, because clearly the author of this post was confused. Deus Ex Machina is a plot device in which a particularly problematic situation is suddenly and unexpectedly solved by some unforeseen outside force.
#195
Posté 21 juillet 2014 - 10:03
Alehazar
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As a DC I only side with Bhelen for Rica (it's actually a dialogue option somewhere); to my PC Rica is the only person in Orzammar she cares about. (Leske was another, but that changed somehow -I wonder.)
During the Origin she does not back down because she is Casteless, but she also refuses to let her decisions be forced by the -legal and religious- restrictions that are implied by being Casteless. But back then she never cared about Orzammar politics, just on how to make ends meet for her family.
When she finally returns to Orzammar for the Dwarven Treaty, she is completely devastated by the bile and derision all dwarves spit into her face. Now she knows why she left her home -and why she will never want to return to it again. When the throne is settled, she says her final farewells to Orzammar. And the Ultimate Sacrifice she makes, is greatly motivated by the fact she never felt she belonged anywhere: not in Orzammar, not on the surface.
She realises that the same fascist tactics of the Dwarven Realm are also present on the surface, especially during the coming of the fifth Blight.
So, not caring for Orzammar's future (or her own) -only for her sister's- she chooses Bhelen over Harrowmont. It's fairly obvious Bhelen only cares for power -when he dissolves the Assembly, his plans will meet no opposition; contrary to Harrowmont, who finds his every move thwarted by the Assembly. And it is also evident he does not care for the Casteless; just take note of his comments before and after you go to find Jarvia.
Bhelen is a power hungry tyrant whose sole interest in life is Bhelen -as well as his wellbeing.
Had I been a DN -either PC or member of some Noble House- I would never lend my support to him.
As a DN I never side with Bhelen. Since he had Trian killed, tried to have me killed while I searched for the shield of Aeducan. But most of all, the fact that my name and reputation will never be cleansed of the taint that Bhelen spread. Even after his death, his followers hound me and the Assembly remains bitterly divided. The blind devotion of some -like the cousin in the Provings when my DN is alreadyd a GW- is both unnerving and deeply saddening. I would have hoped that my DN would receive some form of redemption in life, but no. Seeing how Bhelen's death does not change anything -even worse, the Aeducan name is tainted for good, Trian's death may be avenged, but what does it amount to- my DC feels the shame can never be undone. So, Ultimate Sacrifice; maybe the humans will be more appreciative of her actions. (And I really wished there would have been option, that either Gorim or Alistair would have kept her body from being sent back to Orzammar after her death. And while the Assembly posthumously declared her Paragon, the title was officially rejected by the human King and some surface dwarf).
Bhelen? I can only hope that the Shaperate will completely destroy any reference to him and any future acknowledgement of his existence -verbal or otherwise- will be met by swift and harsh repercussions.
#197
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 04:50
Elite Midget
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Bhelen wanted the throne and he did anything to get it, the DN is portrayed a naive brother/sister who refused to see Bhelen's ambition or to act against it. After all, they're blood. Furthermore Bhelen is very progressive for his station, as shown with how he gets with the sister of the DC, and that he doesn't care much for ancient and outdated traditions. Which is reinforced with how he brings about a new and better age for Dwarves and Dwarf/Surface Dweller relations in the ending. Furthermore, Bhelen is more open to accepting the aid of the Caste-less and the Surface Dwellers.
Not to mention that the Assembly that's run by rivals stabbing each other in the back and held by outdated views severely hold back anything from being accomplished.
#198
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 07:22
TEWR
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The DN being portrayed as they were in-game, naive and a total dipshit to things unless they're clearly spelled out for you, runs completely counter to the intro sequence saying you've survived and thwarted political machinations for a long while.
#199
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 07:53
Xilizhra
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I should point out that there's no more reason to make the DN king than there is to make the DC king; both are casteless at the time, and neither has any backers in the Assembly.
I won't deny, however, that the DN origin is irksome and not fun, at least for me.
#200
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 08:36
TEWR
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I should point out that there's no more reason to make the DN king than there is to make the DC king; both are casteless at the time, and neither has any backers in the Assembly.
I won't deny, however, that the DN origin is irksome and not fun, at least for me.
Actually no, if you review the lore and history of Orzammar a DN can in fact become king. Or should, at any rate, but Bioware didn't implement that for whatever reason.
