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[Xilizhra]

Actually no, if you review the lore and history of Orzammar a DN can in fact become king. Or should, at any rate, but Bioware didn't implement that for whatever reason.

If your caste was restored, maybe, but that would involve diverting the Assembly from its current work of trying to decide who the king is, to decide whether or not to elevate one of the Grey Wardens whom everyone desperately wants to solve the succession crisis, not make it even more complicated. Absolutely no one would be pleased by this, and if you wanted any chance in hell of being elected by the Assembly, you'd have to dive back into dwarven politics--this again as a Grey Warden, now going way out of your mandate of stopping the Blight--and somehow convince a majority to vote for you, which quite frankly wouldn't happen. It's a grandly futile effort that would never go anywhere.

 

Now, if you want to elect Harrowmont and then hang around in the background waiting for the Assembly to pick you after Harrowmont dies, the Blight is over and your caste is restored, that would seem much more doable, and I'd agree that in-universe, the PC should be able to do that. But trying to muscle in on the succession crisis during the Blight is insanity.

[Elite Midget]

DN cannot be King as long as they're a Grey Warden and being the Hero of the story means that everyone knows he's a Grey Warden. Alistair had to spread lies to make him having been a Grey Warden a rumor.

 

Alistair doesn't need to be known as a Grey Warden for the tales to work, the Player does though.

 

The DN being portrayed as they were in-game, naive and a total dipshit to things unless they're clearly spelled out for you, runs completely counter to the intro sequence saying you've survived and thwarted political machinations for a long while.

DN's father favored him thus had an invested interest in keeping DN alive and protected. It took much planning, and exploiting his father's old age and later health, to finally on up both his siblings.

 

It makes sense that the favored child would be spoiled and would be shielded from shady stuff. Bhelen on the other hand wasn't favored, was seen as weak and generally ignored which allowed him to plot and the such. 

 

Bhelen's perceived weakness meant that more are willing to work with him as they benefit the most from seeing him succeed while very few would dare try and go to the DN, whose favored, because the DN doesn't need them as much as Bhelen does.

[TEWR]

DN cannot be King as long as they're a Grey Warden and being the Hero of the story means that everyone knows he's a Grey Warden. Alistair had to spread lies to make him having been a Grey Warden a rumor.

 

Alistair doesn't need to be known as a Grey Warden for the tales to work, the Player does though.

 

Alistair... didn't have to spread lies. He's very much known as being a Warden. And trust me, I've argued this topic to death. The DN has the entire lore and history of Orzammar society to back up their claim.

 

If your caste was restored, maybe, but that would involve diverting the Assembly from its current work of trying to decide who the king is, to decide whether or not to elevate one of the Grey Wardens whom everyone desperately wants to solve the succession crisis, not make it even more complicated. Absolutely no one would be pleased by this, and if you wanted any chance in hell of being elected by the Assembly, you'd have to dive back into dwarven politics--this again as a Grey Warden, now going way out of your mandate of stopping the Blight--and somehow convince a majority to vote for you, which quite frankly wouldn't happen. It's a grandly futile effort that would never go anywhere.

 

Now, if you want to elect Harrowmont and then hang around in the background waiting for the Assembly to pick you after Harrowmont dies, the Blight is over and your caste is restored, that would seem much more doable, and I'd agree that in-universe, the PC should be able to do that. But trying to muscle in on the succession crisis during the Blight is insanity.

 

Yet we do the exact same thing for Alistair, muscling our way in to the political scene to put him on the throne.

 

I don't particularly see how this is so crazy. The Assembly is deadlocked and they have no candidate they can unite behind. Many nobles are in fact suspicious of Bhelen's rise to power and it was known that the Assembly favored the DN over Trian and Bhelen. There's a codex entry of a servant who was made casteless for a false accusation and he died not long after. His son challenged the lord they once served and who had accused them of it to an Honor Proving -- a match where one can fight another and the Ancestors decide who was in the right. The lord accepted, but he lost, and the caste was restored.

 

One of the Ivo children did the same thing when he was accused of fratricide.

 

To say nothing of how the Provings exist to show whom the Ancestors favor and the Glory Proving held in Endrin's honor is being used to decide who should be the king. The Warden can enter independently, under no banner at all. Thus a DN winning would be able to show that the Ancestors favor them, an exile.

 

You can find proof that Bhelen was the real person who killed Trian (if you didn't kill him).

 

And finally, the crown you receive is given to you with clear instructions: Give it to whomever you wish. Even Steward Bandelor is willing to accept such a statement at face value because of how long they've been arguing. Though IIRC, what we see pales in comparison to what the Dwarves have said usually ends up happening down the line.

 

There's more lore for me to add, but computer's lagging. Does that far too much lately.

[Xilizhra]

Yet we do the exact same thing for Alistair, muscling our way in to the political scene to put him on the throne.

 

I don't particularly see how this is so crazy. The Assembly is deadlocked and they have no candidate they can unite behind. Many nobles are in fact suspicious of Bhelen's rise to power and it was known that the Assembly favored the DN over Trian and Bhelen. There's a codex entry of a servant who was made casteless for a false accusation and he died not long after. His son challenged the lord they once served and who had accused them of it to an Honor Proving -- a match where one can fight another and the Ancestors decide who was in the right. The lord accepted, but he lost, and the caste was restored.

 

One of the Ivo children did the same thing when he was accused of fratricide.

 

To say nothing of how the Provings exist to show whom the Ancestors favor and the Glory Proving held in Endrin's honor is being used to decide who should be the king. The Warden can enter independently, under no banner at all. Thus a DN winning would be able to show that the Ancestors favor them, an exile.

 

You can find proof that Bhelen was the real person who killed Trian (if you didn't kill him).

 

And finally, the crown you receive is given to you with clear instructions: Give it to whomever you wish. Even Steward Bandelor is willing to accept such a statement at face value because of how long they've been arguing. Though IIRC, what we see pales in comparison to what the Dwarves have said usually ends up happening down the line.

 

There's more lore for me to add, but computer's lagging. Does that far too much lately.

I thought casteless were banned from Provings? That's what it says in the DC origin.

[TEWR]

*shrugs* all I know is that the Proving codex entry says that a servant was accused of stealing from House Dace, stripped of his position, and he and his family were thrown to the streets. He died not long after and his son called for an Honor Proving to show the Ancestors knew of his father's innocence, and won. And as a result, they were brought back to their caste and place in the Dace household.

 

So it seems that born Casteless can't call or enter Provings, but if you were made Casteless and believe it to have been unjust you can do so.

[Tremere]

"This must be the one thing about Dragon Age and its fan base that even comes close to annoying me. I make it a point of not allowing anything in or caused by a fictional reality to affect me emotionally in any real way, but this whole schtick with Bhelen and Harrowmont is the one thing in years that has managed to break this impassiveness record, mostly because of the incredibly undersized mental boxes that Bhelen worshippers have built around their brains and used countless times to try and bash/flame other people on the internet (scroll down to Wilfully Blind).

I will be blunt and, in some places, I will even, quite deliberately, veer close to the asinine attitudes of certain forumers that are either severely deluded or frustrated (or both) and, thus, display the most ridiculous brand of arrogance one could possibly encounter in a (supposedly) human being."

 

"Of course, since I have no real experience in being a pompous ass, I might not make a very good imitation."

*laughs & laughs & laughs* Don't underestimate yourself. Own your talent!

[Elite Midget]

Play DA2. Alistair, if he's King, doesn't acknowledge that he was ever a Grey Warden. When Anders and him talk they mention that them being a Grey Warden is the "rumor" and leave it at that.

 

Bethany and Carver's experiences over the years as a Grey Warden are much different than the Grey Warden's for sure. The life of an average Grey Warden, when a Blight isn't going on, is often viewed with suspicion, fear, distrust and in some cases outright hatred. Especially for Bethany whose also a Mage during a time when Mage/Templar relations are reaching the breaking point.

 

What happens between the games and the Codex entries makes it clear that this discrimination is pretty wide reaching and Warden's have to deal with being treated like trash for what they are. People are quite fickle, they love the Grey Wardens when they need them but when they don't they cast them aside and treat them as outcasts once more.

[TEWR]

That seemed more like playful banter then anything else. I mean, it's going to be kinda hard to just sweep that under the rug and Anders doesn't have any reason to say "That's the rumor". Alistair was known as a Grey Warden by a lot of people. Granted, some of them would have a vested interest in covering it up (Eamon, Teagan) and others can be killed (Loghain, Cauthrien) but it's known that there were only two Grey Wardens to make it out of Ostagar. Loghain put out a bounty on them. There were posters with their appearance up around Denerim.

 

In fact, that's what's stated clearly in a DAII codex about DAO's events. Two Wardens made it out.

 

And if you a HNF, your Wardenness isn't swept under the rug at all if you're his Queen. Same deal if you're Prince-Consort or Alistair's Mistress or whatever and you take on political roles like Chancellor.

[Elite Midget]

There's no need for playful banter, Anders and Alistair say it's only a rumor while they're out in public. Heck, Anders is only rumored to be a Grey Warden and gets it a secret, Varric wasn't even sure if he was actually a Grey Warden or not when he suggested you go looking for the supposed Grey Warden.

 

Alistair wasn't known as a Grey Warden by the people, he wasn't even know to be a Prince by the people. 

 

Being King and a Grey Warden has implications and complications to it, Alistair is right to keep it as a mere rumor with no merit to its backing due to how much being a Grey Warden would affect his ability to rule due to the discrimination against Grey Wardens.

 

Alistair couldn't even free the Circle, bring Elf/Human peace in Denerim, or keep the Dalish Clans in Ferelden even if he promises to do as such due to the huge bias, fear and discrimination against those Mages and Elves.

 

One of you has to be a Warden, furthermore you're lauded as the "Hero of Ferelden" and the such. Alistair was there for the ride as were your other companions hence why they don't get much recognition if any at all for having helped stopped the Blight. Ohgren in particular is treated like an annoyance, despite the role he played, and as no one worth mentioning when Awakening starts.

 

The people love their Stories and it's far more romantic to amp up the Hero of Ferelden's importance over everyone else. 

 

Two Wardens made it out, yes, but the people only know that the Hero of Ferelden was one of them while it's only rumored that Alistair was a Grey Warden. For all they know the other Grey Warden died, after all there's only 1 person who carries the titles "Hero of Ferelden" and that's the Player.

 

So it makes sense for Alistair to change truth to rumor, all things considered.

[TEWR]

There's no need for playful banter, Anders and Alistair say it's only a rumor while they're out in public. Heck, Anders is only rumored to be a Grey Warden and gets it a secret, Varric wasn't even sure if he was actually a Grey Warden or not when he suggested you go looking for the supposed Grey Warden.

 

Alistair wasn't known as a Grey Warden by the people, he wasn't even know to be a Prince by the people. 

 

Being King and a Grey Warden has implications and complications to it, Alistair is right to keep it as a mere rumor with no merit to its backing due to how much being a Grey Warden would affect his ability to rule due to the discrimination against Grey Wardens.

 

Alistair couldn't even free the Circle, bring Elf/Human peace in Denerim, or keep the Dalish Clans in Ferelden even if he promises to do as such due to the huge bias, fear and discrimination against those Mages and Elves.

 

One of you has to be a Warden, furthermore you're lauded as the "Hero of Ferelden" and the such. Alistair was there for the ride as were your other companions hence why they don't get much recognition if any at all for having helped stopped the Blight. Ohgren in particular is treated like an annoyance, despite the role he played, and as no one worth mentioning when Awakening starts.

 

The people love their Stories and it's far more romantic to amp up the Hero of Ferelden's importance over everyone else. 

 

Two Wardens made it out, yes, but the people only know that the Hero of Ferelden was one of them while it's only rumored that Alistair was a Grey Warden. For all they know the other Grey Warden died, after all there's only 1 person who carries the titles "Hero of Ferelden" and that's the Player.

 

So it makes sense for Alistair to change truth to rumor, all things considered.

 

Thing is, Alistair's codex entry for DAII makes it clear that people know he's a Grey Warden. So there's no "secrecy" about who he is. People know. People love him for his part.

 

It was just playful banter between the two of them.

 

And this is all irrelevant to the fact a DN can and should be able to become king/queen.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

People who put Bhelen on the thrown have a lot in common with people who voted for McCain in 2008. Basically, they're wrong.

There's actual arguments for putting Obama in the White House. If you want me to concede the point on Harrowmont, you'll need to make actual arguments instead of making analogies with no justification of them. (Also, we're really not supposed to bring real life politics into this, so cut that out.)