228 réponses à ce sujet

[Everwarden]

Persephone wrote...

The title was so nice and melodramatic.

The article itself was not nearly as interesting. Lotsa theories, no hard evidence. 

You wouldn't admit Bioware or EA was at fault if Laidlaw was taking a bullwhip to a reviewer until he caved and gave DA2 a 10/10. 

[PlumPaul93]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Pretty much confirms what most people already know/suspect.

[Persephone]

Everwarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...

The title was so nice and melodramatic.

The article itself was not nearly as interesting. Lotsa theories, no hard evidence. 

You wouldn't admit Bioware or EA was at fault if Laidlaw was taking a bullwhip to a reviewer until he caved and gave DA2 a 10/10. 

I'd actually PAY to see that! 

[Maverick827]

mykeme wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

I find it difficult to scrounge together sympathy for people ignorant enough to complain that an arbitrary number from a preliminary review did not automatically translate into an enjoyable experience.

Think for yourself next time and we won't have this problem.

Says the guy who paid for it.

I'm not quite sure the words you have written convey the thoughts inside your head.

[Wittand25]

It is common that big publishers do not allow reviews for triple A games to come out before launch, and that some of the bigger review sites and magazines get special treatment like the privilege to publish the first review. And according to gamers.at, a very minor Austrian gaming magazine, review codes were sent out early enough for the previewers to fully rate the game.

Regarding not sending out preview material, that is common practise for years now by every publisher to avoid leaks and to get the best preview possible. Any notable publication mentions the conditions under which they previewed the game and I cannot recall a preview in the last years that mentions that they could play the game indefinitely in their own offices.

Last but not least. The title of the thread is misleading since the quoted part from the magazine does not have proof, or even just evidence that EA/Bioware had any influence on review scores other than maybe pick reviewers who were likely to give better scores. And even that is not proven but merely suggested.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

This is an expose on the video game media, not publishers. If you thought that game publishers were concerned mainly with a free and diverse debate on their products, then you were...naive.

The media are the ones who (in theory) have an interest in maintaining their credibility. Apparently, they aren't very good at it.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Not directly related to DAII, but the OP reminded me of one of the (numerous) gripes of Adam Sessler: "Publishers, let us review the **** game."  Apparently some companies have started waiting to send review copies of new titles.

I make no claims as to knowing a particular company's or reviewer's motivations, but it's hard to shake the feeling that, between heavily promoted pre-order bonuses and only a few early reviews (mostly positive)...

much effort is being put into ensuring profits by pre-release PR that could be better utilized in making an exemplary game and letting it stand on its own merits (Fable series, anyone?).  I no longer pre-order games or buy them in the first few weeks after release.

And I say that as someone who enjoyed many aspects of DAII.

Modifié par LadyJaneGrey, 20 avril 2011 - 01:59 .

[v_ware]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Not directly related to DAII, but the OP reminded me of one of the (numerous) gripes of Adam Sessler: "Publishers, let us review the **** game."  Apparently some companies have started waiting to send review copies of new titles.

I make no claims as to knowing a particular company's or reviewer's motivations, but it's hard to shake the feeling that, between heavily promoted pre-order bonuses and only a few early reviews (mostly positive)...

much effort is being put into ensuring profits by pre-release PR that could be better utilized in making an exemplary game and letting it stand on its own merits (Fable series, anyone?).  I no longer pre-order games or buy them in the first few weeks after release.

And I say that as someone who enjoyed many aspects of DAII.

Publishers who use this tactic are mentioned in the article: Activision and EA. Also they state Sega does an exemplary job in sending in it's games soon enough to be reviewed. (those games being crap or fantastic).

On another note: DA2 was my first preorder. And it shall be my last.

Modifié par v_ware, 20 avril 2011 - 02:02 .

[Cutlass Jack]

v_ware wrote...

PC Gamer gave DA2 94pct at release, so yeah. That's not exactly critical journalism. And then a month after release there is a Anti DA2 Column.
Guess which will affect sales the most. Guess which one publishers care most about.

I'd guess the second one is the one Bioware cares more about moving forward. EA will of course make the first sound more important.

I think people (meaning both 'fans' and publishers) plant too much false import on numeric scores. The actual review itself is the important part. An unbiased review covers both the good and bad points so that the readers who are on the fence can decide how important those points are to their enjoyment level. 

The numbers only seem to matter to those looking for confirmation on their opinion (either side)

But the point you overlook in this big 'scandal' is that they released a demo for DA2 weeks before release. Not only that they rewarded people for downloading it and actually playing through til the end. In plenty of time for people to cancel their pre-orders. And in all honesty that demo featured the worst segment of the game.

Not really the behavior of someone trying to hide things to make sales. Just putting it out there.

[PlumPaul93]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

v_ware wrote...

PC Gamer gave DA2 94pct at release, so yeah. That's not exactly critical journalism. And then a month after release there is a Anti DA2 Column.
Guess which will affect sales the most. Guess which one publishers care most about.

I'd guess the second one is the one Bioware cares more about moving forward. EA will of course make the first sound more important.

I think people (meaning both 'fans' and publishers) plant too much false import on numeric scores. The actual review itself is the important part. An unbiased review covers both the good and bad points so that the readers who are on the fence can decide how important those points are to their enjoyment level. 

The numbers only seem to matter to those looking for confirmation on their opinion (either side)

But the point you overlook in this big 'scandal' is that they released a demo for DA2 weeks before release. Not only that they rewarded people for downloading it and actually playing through til the end. In plenty of time for people to cancel their pre-orders. And in all honesty that demo featured the worst segment of the game.

Not really the behavior of someone trying to hide things to make sales. Just putting it out there.

I don't know about that the demo didn't show that there would be a lack of choices that actually matter in the game. All it showed was that it was going to be a button masher but Bioware said the console version was going to include auto attack (which it didn't until a month long patch). I find the demo argument very lame because there were multiple reasons to assume things were better in the actual game.

[skyrend]

The only reviews that I saw were available prior to release was The Escapist Magazine and PCGamer, at which point I thought, hey maybe Bioware managed to make a good game despite that horrible demo.  

All the not so stellar and negative reviews came rolling in afterwards.  Funny how that worked.

[Rockpopple]

People should really use their own brains and opinions when it comes to purchasing games. Rent them first, if you can, and if you can't there's usually a demo - like there was for Dragon Age II. If the demo's not your cup-of-tea, then I don't know why you'd purchase the full product. I've made purchasing decisions (or nixed purchases) because of bad demos before and I'll do it again.

Of course, if you can't rent and there's no demo, then I guess you're SOL.

And for anyone who says the Demo tricked them - you're kidding yourself. The demo featured what was the most prominent technical aspect to the game: the battle system. Fast action, new animations and exploding bodies? Check. All in the demo.

As for other existential things like "choices", no the demo didn't feature them, but not everyone agrees that there weren't choices in this game. I, for example, think there were a lot of meaningful choices in the game and that the story was very good and well told. I've already gone through them, and I won't hijack this thread with examples. A good story to you might have been a crap story to me. It's all a matter of taste, and it's purely subjective.

The only thing the demo didn't cover were the re-cycled areas, but really, if you played the demo and the battle system, new artstyle, voice acting, new graphics and atmosphere (in and out of Kirkwall), new character animation, etc weren't your thing, you had little to no reason to buy the game afterwards. That cognitive dissonance is really on the consumer at that point.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 20 avril 2011 - 02:42 .

[v_ware]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
But the point you overlook in this big 'scandal' is that they released a demo for DA2 weeks before release. Not only that they rewarded people for downloading it and actually playing through til the end. In plenty of time for people to cancel their pre-orders. And in all honesty that demo featured the worst segment of the game.

Not really the behavior of someone trying to hide things to make sales. Just putting it out there.

Not quite a good argument.
I as many people did, gave the demo the benefit of the doubt. It was one hour long, no way was it indicative of the quality of the game. It didn't reveal DA2 sub par story, it didn't reveal the endless map copying. It didn't show us our choiches didn't matter in this game and had no effect on the game world. It didn't show us the lifeless, tiny feel of Kirkwall.... Besides that: any buggs in the demo could be attributed to it being based on a BETA-version of the game.

I could go on. But I think I've made my point. All we knew from the demo was that the combat and look of the game had changed from DAO. People then listened to the first reviews to come in and tell if the rest of the game was any good. According to the first reviews it was.

[PlumPaul93]

Rockpopple wrote...

People should really use their own brains and opinions when it comes to purchasing games. Rent them first, if you can, and if you can't there's usually a demo - like there was for Dragon Age II. If the demo's not your cup-of-tea, then I don't know why you'd purchase the full product. I've made purchasing decisions (or nixed purchases) because of bad demos before and I'll do it again.

Of course, if you can't rent and there's no demo, then I guess you're SOL.

there was a lot of reason to assume things would be better in the released version of the game. I liked the combat compared to DAO so that wasn't a problem for me the problem's were reuse of maps, bugs, lack of choices, and lame story (which I'm sure are other peoples issues with the game) all of those were not shown as a problem in the demo. Also it would be nice to rent games, if you know you could actually find a place that has the game you want in a somewhat reasonable time frame.

[jnrhrt]

Honestly, I think Bioware expected exactly what they got. This game is a holding pattern for DLC and DA3.

EA is really big into metrics/biometrics, and I can guarantee you that Bioware believes that they can design DLC around our play-patterns that will redeem the game.

It's the same reason there were so many bugs. They essentially used us as their beta testers and cut their QA budget.

[Rockpopple]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

People should really use their own brains and opinions when it comes to purchasing games. Rent them first, if you can, and if you can't there's usually a demo - like there was for Dragon Age II. If the demo's not your cup-of-tea, then I don't know why you'd purchase the full product. I've made purchasing decisions (or nixed purchases) because of bad demos before and I'll do it again.

Of course, if you can't rent and there's no demo, then I guess you're SOL.

there was a lot of reason to assume things would be better in the released version of the game. I liked the combat compared to DAO so that wasn't a problem for me the problem's were reuse of maps, bugs, lack of choices, and lame story (which I'm sure are other peoples issues with the game) all of those were not shown as a problem in the demo. Also it would be nice to rent games, if you know you could actually find a place that has the game you want in a somewhat reasonable time frame.

Again, "lack of choices and lame story" is not an objective failing to the game, it's a subjective one based on your own life experiences. I thought the choices and story were good. No demo would have been able to please both of us, apparently.

The only objective problems in the game not present in the demo were, Imo, the recycled areas. So I admit, if the recycled areas were the only back-breaker for anyone, then the demo wouldn't have warned them at all.

As for bugs, pfft. What game doesn't ship with bugs these days? 

I guess I'm fortunate there are two big rental places where I live. 

[Cutlass Jack]

v_ware wrote...

Not quite a good argument.
I as many people did, gave the demo the benefit of the doubt. It was one hour long, no way was it indicative of the quality of the game. It didn't reveal DA2 sub par story, it didn't reveal the endless map copying. It didn't show us our choiches didn't matter in this game and had no effect on the game world. It didn't show us the lifeless, tiny feel of Kirkwall.... Besides that: any buggs in the demo could be attributed to it being based on a BETA-version of the game.

I could go on. But I think I've made my point. All we knew from the demo was that the combat and look of the game had changed from DAO. People then listened to the first reviews to come in and tell if the rest of the game was any good. According to the first reviews it was.

Not really a convincing counter arguement. Hands on with a game is always better than a review. If you hated the demo, its unlikely the game would change meaningfully in the next 2 weeks. Any reviewer who tested the full game prior to that likely had an even buggier copy.

If you had any doubts at all during the demo you could have easilly canceled your preorder and waited til reviews happened from the publisher you trusted most. I know I have in the past. And I nearly cancelled DA2 myself based on how little I enjoyed the demo. Ultimately I'm glad I didn't because I enjoyed the full game quite a bit.

[Miashi]

Combat's never really been something that I emphasized on RPGs. It's an aspect that I've never personally liked, so it could be strategical, button masher - if I could skip combat I would do it without a second thought. But at the same time, I've accepted combat as a part of an RPG and I deal with it the best way I can - if it's too hard for me, I scale the difficulty down - but I would definitely not go my way out to micromanage a fight.

This was a lot what the demo was; a glance at combat. What interests me is the story. Here's the deal; my initial perception about the story was skewed. I thought that the Lothering flee part was NOT the beggining of the game. As a matter of fact, I was 100% convinced that there was a game segment in Lothering, with possibly an Alistair / Morrigan / Lelianna cameo. That was my first dissapointment of the game.

Modifié par Miashi, 20 avril 2011 - 02:46 .

[Wittand25]

v_ware wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
But the point you overlook in this big 'scandal' is that they released a demo for DA2 weeks before release. Not only that they rewarded people for downloading it and actually playing through til the end. In plenty of time for people to cancel their pre-orders. And in all honesty that demo featured the worst segment of the game.

Not really the behavior of someone trying to hide things to make sales. Just putting it out there.

Not quite a good argument.
I as many people did, gave the demo the benefit of the doubt. It was one hour long, no way was it indicative of the quality of the game. It didn't reveal DA2 sub par story, it didn't reveal the endless map copying. It didn't show us our choiches didn't matter in this game and had no effect on the game world. It didn't show us the lifeless, tiny feel of Kirkwall.... Besides that: any buggs in the demo could be attributed to it being based on a BETA-version of the game.

I could go on. But I think I've made my point. All we knew from the demo was that the combat and look of the game had changed from DAO. People then listened to the first reviews to come in and tell if the rest of the game was any good. According to the first reviews it was.

Even the first reviews mentioned the copied areas, heck even some of the previews did. The story was also criticised by publications before the release, I remember that because I myself posted reviews from German magazines before launch and there were discussions what exactly copied area or not so epic story meant. Sorry if you were not capable of finding valid information before buying, I sure was (not that it mattered since I pre ordered to get the SE and am happy with it).

Modifié par Wittand25, 20 avril 2011 - 02:46 .

[rak72]

Shadowbanner wrote...


if you want links to Meristation, the most important Spanish website in the world, please, let me now and I'lll be more than obliged to post them here for everyone to read.

I'm sure others can do likewise for German, French, Dutch and so forth.

I'd like a link, sounds interesting

[Rockpopple]

All I'll say is that I didn't even buy DA II on reputation alone. I brought it based on the demo and so far, I've been quite pleased with my purchase.

The last game I brought on reputation and reviews alone was Final Fantasy XIII. I swore to God, Buddha, Allah, Santa Clause, Tep and the Giant Spaghetti Monster that I would never, ever make that mistake again.

[Kilshrek]

Rockpopple wrote...

People should really use their own brains and opinions when it comes to purchasing games. Rent them first, if you can, and if you can't there's usually a demo - like there was for Dragon Age II. If the demo's not your cup-of-tea, then I don't know why you'd purchase the full product. I've made purchasing decisions (or nixed purchases) because of bad demos before and I'll do it again.

Of course, if you can't rent and there's no demo, then I guess you're SOL.

Can't rent PC games, that my fault too? The PC demo gave players such a small slice of the game, though on reflection not entirely unrepresentative of the experience as a whole. I'm not gonna say the demo cheated me or misled me or anything like that, I made the decision to buy the game way before the demo was released. What I didn't expect was such a one-track game. Don't hate DA 2, don't love it either.

[v_ware]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Not really a convincing counter arguement. Hands on with a game is always better than a review. If you hated the demo, its unlikely the game would change meaningfully in the next 2 weeks. Any reviewer who tested the full game prior to that likely had an even buggier copy.

If you had any doubts at all during the demo you could have easilly canceled your preorder and waited til reviews happened from the publisher you trusted most. I know I have in the past. And I nearly cancelled DA2 myself based on how little I enjoyed the demo. Ultimately I'm glad I didn't because I enjoyed the full game quite a bit.

Wittand25 wrote...
Even the first reviews mentioned the copied areas, heck even some of the previews did. The story was also criticised by publications before the release, I remember that because I myself posted reviews from German magazines before launch and there were discussions what exactly copied area or not so epic story meant. Sorry if you were not capable of finding valid information before buying, I sure was (not that it mattered since I pre ordered to get the SE and am happy with it).

To both of you: If reviews range from 5/5: BEST RPG OF THIS DECADE or 94 pct; Darker, sexier, better; I (and I'm sure a lot of gamers) will asume that those mentioned problems are minor annoyances, and that the game is awesome and you misintepreted the demo. And again: an opinion of a one hour demo doesn't have as much gravitas as someones opinion of the whole game.

Honestly, who would you be more inclined to believe?

Modifié par v_ware, 20 avril 2011 - 02:58 .

[Nozybidaj]

All I would say is, anyone who thought the review industry "didn't" work like that was awfully naive.

[rak72]

The demo would have been more helpful if it wasn't released 1 week before the game, especially since you had to pre-order the SE 2 months prior. My feelings about the demo pretty much translated to the actual game.