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[Fruit of the Doom]

i.e. return to their normal human/elven/etc appearance instead of always looking like a walking tumor

Or are only Pride Abominations like Uldred and Grace capable of it?

[Abispa]

I get the feeling from the game that once a demon gets "settled in" the abomination can resume a human appearance. All of the grotesque ones we've seen were early in their transformation. Abominations like Anders, Flemeth, Grace and Uldred all seem to hold a human appearance very well, and in the case of Flemeth, many different forms. Another explanation could probably depend on the power of the mage and the mage's willingness to merge with the spirit in the first place.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Just a note:

Flemeth is not an abomination.

Morrigan clearly stated it in Witch Hunt.  Fenris says it if you ask him about her in DA2.

Her codex is just the old myth about her.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 20 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[Abispa]

According to Morrigan's fire-side chats, Flemeth is an abomination.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Abispa wrote...

According to Morrigan's fire-side chats, Flemeth is an abomination.

Play Witch Hunt.

Morrigan: "I thought I knew what Flemeth planned.  I thought what she craved was immortality.  And yet I was wrong.  So very wrong.  She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human.  The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."


Alternatively, you can just bring Fenris with you when you revive her at Sundermount.  If you ask what he thinks, he will say something very similar.

Fenris: "I have seen powerful mages, spirits, and abominations. But you are none of those things. What are you?"

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 20 avril 2011 - 04:13 .

[Abispa]

Just as an abomination is no longer human due to it's transformation, I've always seen Flemeth as an abomination who continues to explore ways to evolve. While it could turn out that her history was a complete lie, there has been nothing to indicate that she didn't START as an abomination and didn't continue to recreate herself.

[Abispa]

Also, Fenris is NOT an expert. He didn't know Anders was an abomination until AFTER he told him.

[Cutlass Jack]

Abispa wrote...

Just as an abomination is no longer human due to it's transformation, I've always seen Flemeth as an abomination who continues to explore ways to evolve. While it could turn out that her history was a complete lie, there has been nothing to indicate that she didn't START as an abomination and didn't continue to recreate herself.

Yeah I took it as more 'no longer an abomination.' or at least what we classify as such. Its obvious she has a full personality and isn't restricting herself to a single concept like 'pride' 'justice' or whatever.

And I still fully believe that she was playing Morrigan all along to trick her into making a body that wouldn't need replacing like her previous ones. And seems to have a plan beyond that as well.

[Fruit of the Doom]

That's nice, but I think both Morrigan and Fenris know more than you.

Even if you don't think Fenris would know, you have no way of explaining why Morrigan would explicitly state "She is no blood mage, no abomination..."

I'm going to take her at her word.

The whole "she's a long-term abomination" has nothing to back it up other than idle speculation and it directly contradicts what is stated.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 20 avril 2011 - 04:26 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

Still, some clarification from one of Bioware's writers would be nice...

*looks up in the sky for signs of Gaider swooping in*

[spacepopeadventures]

Abispa wrote...

Just as an abomination is no longer human due to it's transformation, I've always seen Flemeth as an abomination who continues to explore ways to evolve. While it could turn out that her history was a complete lie, there has been nothing to indicate that she didn't START as an abomination and didn't continue to recreate herself.

I think Morrigan knows a little better than we do (since the devs put the words in her mouth). It would be a huge let-down to discover that by "not an abomination, not even really human" she just meant "a super abomination who keeps learning". I mean, come on.

If that's not enough, think of the whole amulet thing in DA2. An abomination is a demon with a human vessel. Clearly, Flemeth has/is no vessel. She's will made flesh.

Basically,  all signs point to Flemeth being something like an Old God. This has been telegraphed (and discussed) since DA:O. So no, I don't think Flemeth is relevant to a discussion about abominations.

Edit: Whoops, ninjaed.

Modifié par spacepopeadventures, 20 avril 2011 - 04:31 .

[Abispa]

My girlfriend has a theory that she's going to turn out to be Andraste herself, thanks to that book you find in Orzamar. In reality, I think Flemeth is the Bioware's equivalent to DC Comic's The Phantom Stranger. Nobody, not even the writers "knows" what she is because they're making it up as they go along. So until there is absolute confirmation that she is not and has never been an abomination, I still say it's a possibility.

Which, despite spacepopeadentures' assertions, would not be a "huge let-down" unless it were handled badly. And if the final reveal is handled badly, not even her being an Old God or Andraste herself would be cool.

Also, given that Morrigan herself has given you multiple stories about what Flemeth is, she is either a liar or not omniscient, either of which means that whatever she says cannot be taken as gospel. Personally, I think Morrigan, like Flemeth, are both creatures that Bioware is still undecided about who and what they are.

[Camenae]

I would think abominations can hide their true form. Since I remember when you kill Grace's body, a Pride Abomination pops up. I remember that happening with other abominations as well, such as the three mages you have to go and kill in The Bounty Hunter. I think Danzig in Act I was like that too?

[Maria Caliban]

My personal theory is that the more powerful and experienced the demon, the more likely it is to know how to control its new body, understand the benefits of doing so, and not completely smash its host's mind into goo.

The average demon doesn't understand the difference between a living host, a corpse, or an inanimate object. They don't understand why the mortal world doesn't bend to their every whim like the Fade does. I'm guessing it takes them awhile to realize that the massive, fleshy transformation makes them a target.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 20 avril 2011 - 05:02 .

[spacepopeadventures]

@Abispa: Well, fair enough, I guess. But it would have to be very well-handled, since on the face of it it's the dullest possibility. (And there'd have to be a great reason for choosing it, too.)

In any case, the uncertainty means Flemeth is still not a very useful test case in a discussion of what abominations are capable of.

Modifié par spacepopeadventures, 20 avril 2011 - 05:16 .

[spacepopeadventures]

Re: Grace, Uldred, etc., the problem is that we never see them go back from meat blob form to human form. It could just be that the demons were lying low before that point.

[Lord Gremlin]

As far as I understood having played both games and having read the Calling, demon can control abomination appearance and change it at will. They turn human when they wish to be inconspicuous.

[FaeQueenCory]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Abispa wrote...

According to Morrigan's fire-side chats, Flemeth is an abomination.

Play Witch Hunt.

Morrigan: "I thought I knew what Flemeth planned.  I thought what she craved was immortality.  And yet I was wrong.  So very wrong.  She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human.  The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."


Alternatively, you can just bring Fenris with you when you revive her at Sundermount.  If you ask what he thinks, he will say something very similar.

Fenris: "I have seen powerful mages, spirits, and abominations. But you are none of those things. What are you?"

There should be an "anymore" somewhere in Morrigan's speech at the end of Witch Hunt. Flemeth WAS a human. She WAS an abomination (by definition... but then, so is Wynne). But now she is that no longer. Just as she ceased to be human when she became an abomination... she is now no longer even that. She is something bigger.
And don't say something like "but because she's not that now, there is no proof to her being that before." Because using that logic: You and I must have always been however we are now and were never birthed nor were we babies.

And Fenris knows jack. Anders comments on how she is like an abomination... but something more.... and considering Anders has a SPIRIT inside of him, I think ,given that like calls to like, Justice knows a wee bit more that stupid Fenris.

People like to disregard the fact that Flemeth was a human and an abomination before the players meet her... mainly because it removes the giant gaping hole in the Flemeth = Fen'Harel or Old God theory.
By disregarding those facts that are inconvenient to them, they can sleep soundly with their pet hypothesis.
Even though those explanations are severly lacking in coherence to the known facts.

And as Maria Caliban pointed out: If you're big and powerful, you can appear human.
I also think that it is for the same reason that a human appears in the fade as themselves is the same reason demons warp their hosts forms: It is a form closer to what they identify with as themselves.

[Rifneno]

*sigh*  Look, it doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread.  We cannot know conclusively that she was an abomination, therefor she is irrelevant to the question of how abominations' forms are handled. 

[Fruit of the Doom]

FaeQueenCory wrote...

There should be an "anymore" somewhere in Morrigan's speech at the end of Witch Hunt.

Except there isn't, so your point is invalid.

You lose, good day sir.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 20 avril 2011 - 05:47 .

[Blacklash93]

Abispa wrote...

Also, Fenris is NOT an expert. He didn't know Anders was an abomination until AFTER he told him.

The writers wouldn't have made him say it if it weren't true.

On another note, what causes an abomination to turn into the fleshy, hunched mass they tend to be? What causes that transformation?

[David Gaider]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...
i.e. return to their normal human/elven/etc appearance instead of always looking like a walking tumor

Or are only Pride Abominations like Uldred and Grace capable of it?

It depends on the spirit and how crazy they are. Some people like hard rules, but spirits and demons do not all work the same... either that or there is a pattern that none of you have nobody has discerned yet.

[Rifneno]

David Gaider wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...
i.e. return to their normal human/elven/etc appearance instead of always looking like a walking tumor

Or are only Pride Abominations like Uldred and Grace capable of it?

It depends on the spirit and how crazy they are. Some people like hard rules, but spirits and demons do not all work the same... either that or there is a pattern that none of you have nobody has discerned yet.

You're a sadistic man, you know that?  

[Spartansfan8888]

David Gaider wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...
i.e. return to their normal human/elven/etc appearance instead of always looking like a walking tumor

Or are only Pride Abominations like Uldred and Grace capable of it?

It depends on the spirit and how crazy they are. Some people like hard rules, but spirits and demons do not all work the same... either that or there is a pattern that none of you have nobody has discerned yet.

Is it the Atkins diet? Because they could shed all that bloating and lose 10-15 lbs. of water weight in 2 weeks or less!

[_Aine_]

i just figured the appearance change of the abomination's reveal is much like a cobra looks much like a snake most of the time but can stand up, flatten parts into a hood....all to be more terrifying to its opponent.

The strongest abominations would never reveal themselves as such, was my thinking. The greatest danger the one who looks completely human and never shows its hand, always remaining exceptionally human, and even helpful. I guess motivation plays a big part too. Are they trying to deceive or does that even fit their needs?

I always figured they revealed simply because the gig was up and you were about to fight them anyway. lol Seemed that way anyway.