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[Cutlass Jack]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I found Merrill and Isabela's romances comparable to Leliana's. I even liked the feeling in Isabela's that the character grew and changed over the years, which I didn't notice in DA:O.

Yeah thats why I really loved Isabela the best overall. Even her actually falling in love with Hawke wasn't an 'out of the blue' sort of thing. It was very gradual and you could catch lots of snippets of it during banter she had with other characters (particularly with Merril) She had to overcome a lifetime of being forced to look out only for herself.

Still haven't done the Merril one yet. Its targeted for my next playthrough though.

[TheAwesomologist]

I really enjoyed the romance story with Morrigan in DA:O. Leliana's was nice, but once she and the Warden had the convo about shoes I found myself tuning out and becoming disinterested. Which really is par for the course.

I like the DA2 characters over all. Yes there's less camp scene dialog but they also have more involved side quests. So while I didn't talk to Merrill 8 times at camp I instead talked to her in 4-5 short quests in her house (and Hawkes) but then also had her for her two quests and her commentary through out since she's almost always in my party (for a sweet little thing she's awfully deadly...).

I agree with others that there's a lack of intimacy, but I don't think DA:O had that pinned down either. Sure getting a kiss or "lets get to bed" line is a ham fisted way of showing intimacy, but romance and intimacy can play out in scenes since thats the more cinematic direction games are going in anyways. For example, there are plenty of times in DA2 where a quest or scene implies that time has to pass before you do the next step ("Go see Bob at night in Darktown" or "We need to gather these people, meet me here later"), those moments can easily show Hawke and LI heading off to home/Hanged Man/LI's place, holding a hand or just talking. I'm saying about 2-5 seconds of animation that simply says "these two characters are in a relationship."
A more specific example would be during the conversation between Gamlen and Hawke after Leandra has died. While the LI's get their own scene this was a missed opportunity to have the LI (especially if Anders or Merrill have moved in by then) there sitting with Hawke. They don't have to be a part of the conversation either, letting the writers focus on Gamlen and Hawke possibly being the last of the Amells and so on. The LI convo afterwards is fine, if a bit short, but they all seem to focus on the awkwardness of the moment. All of them express not knowing what to say and thats about it.
(Another problem there is that if Bethany or Carver are still in Kirkwall Hawke doesn't go see them himself. Love shouldn't only be limited to romances. A missed opportunity to show a sense of family.)

Intimacy and Romance can both be shown within the context of the game without having to be a button press or dialog choice to get a kiss and go to bed. How video game writers choose to explore this in future games we'll just have to wait and see. A good love story isn't easy to tell to begin with, and making romances optional and varied doesn't help.

[Mr.House]

I prefer the romances in DA2

Tho I couldn't stand Alistair one bit so I might be bias in this Anders vs Alistair thing

[Cutlass Jack]

TheAwesomologist wrote...
I really enjoyed the romance story with Morrigan in DA:O. Leliana's was nice, but once she and the Warden had the convo about shoes I found myself tuning out and becoming disinterested. Which really is par for the course.

Funny I had the opposite reaction on these two. Morrigan completely lost my interest once she delivered that truly terrible "cold in my tent all alllooooone" line. I just couldn't take her seriously in romance after that. But going friendhip route with her was quite satisfying. Especially since the concept of being in a non-sexual relationship with a man is completely alien to her. And once she has it, she treasures it. I love challeinging her worldview.

Of course she completely ruins it in the endgame by trying to force the whole Dark Ritual thing. Shame really.

Conversely (or is that perversely) I found the Shoe conversation with Leliana to be adorable. Espeically playing along with it. Funny stuff. She can regale me with tales of Caramel pudding anytime.

[Wulfram]

I preferred the way DA:O did it. There was more sense of an existing, evolving relationship, at least as long as you paced yourself with gifts and dialogue.

[Mr.House]

Wulfram wrote...

I preferred the way DA:O did it. There was more sense of an existing, evolving relationship, at least as long as you paced yourself with gifts and dialogue.

You see, in DAO I didn't have that sense. I love Leli to bits but the pacing was terrible. Zevs pacing was good but you had a huge gap in no dialog. I don't like Morrigans romance at all and Alistair is just so I might be bias on those two

[TheAwesomologist]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...
I really enjoyed the romance story with Morrigan in DA:O. Leliana's was nice, but once she and the Warden had the convo about shoes I found myself tuning out and becoming disinterested. Which really is par for the course.

Funny I had the opposite reaction on these two. Morrigan completely lost my interest once she delivered that truly terrible "cold in my tent all alllooooone" line. I just couldn't take her seriously in romance after that. But going friendhip route with her was quite satisfying. Especially since the concept of being in a non-sexual relationship with a man is completely alien to her. And once she has it, she treasures it. I love challeinging her worldview.

Of course she completely ruins it in the endgame by trying to force the whole Dark Ritual thing. Shame really.

Conversely (or is that perversely) I found the Shoe conversation with Leliana to be adorable. Espeically playing along with it. Funny stuff. She can regale me with tales of Caramel pudding anytime.

Morrigan is just one of my favorite characters period. I agree that her friendship route is also worth while. Her character alone turned DA:O from being a LotR-generic fantasy to a generic fantasy with a bit of Taming of the Shrew. Thats a complement, really. And thats not to take anything away from Leliana who I thought was well written and well voiced, but if I want to hear a girl talk about shoes I can just call one.
On a side note, I liked "hardening" Leliana and Alistair. Not only because it changes some dialog but it also affects choices outside of romance/friendship. The Friendship-Rivalry system doesn't seem to do that as well. Sure I like the rivalry romance scene with Merrill but it only seems to affect a few conversations and nothing else.

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...
You see, in DAO I didn't have that sense. I love Leli to bits but the pacing was terrible.

I was dissapointed with the romance portion of DA:O after my first pt b/c of this pacing.  I guess I rushed through the Leliana romance too quickly, completing it (i.e., sleeping with her) before the half-way mark.  After that...nothing...it didn't exist anymore.

I FELT SO USED!!!!!!!!!  (or, my Warden did...yeah).  Anyway, I didn't have this same issue with my DA2 romance first time through and I was quite pleased with how that one went.

[tek427]

I can agree with the OP (even though I'm a guy). I really like Alistair as a person. He made for a great friend with my male Wardens and he made for a great future husband for my female human rogue. The romance between Alistair and my human rogue seemed like a fairy tale with a happily-ever-after. I felt the same way with Leliana. I felt that it was worth persuing a romance with her.

Howevver, I didn't feel much when I romanced Merrill. Aside from a few dialogue differences, you probably wouldn't know Hawke and Merrill were in love. Merrill uses the same banter dialogue when you click on her as if you aren't romancing her. Plus the fact that you can't have discussions without a quest really hurt the intimacy.

I still like Merrill as a person, but I wish we had more dialogue opportunities. Perhaps I'll consider this a learning experience for Bioware for the next DA installment.

[ejoslin]

I agree that in DAO the pacing could have been better. This could have been easily fixed by requiring x number of treaty quests be done before certain dialogs appeared. But then again, I was good about pacing my conversations as I didn't want things to dry up so I never had that issue.

[Mr.House]

ejoslin wrote...

I agree that in DAO the pacing could have been better. This could have been easily fixed by requiring x number of treaty quests be done before certain dialogs appeared. But then again, I was good about pacing my conversations as I didn't want things to dry up so I never had that issue.

Not on the first pt, I was very disapointed in my first pt. Everytime I talked to Leli it was all "i'm here for you!" and nothing else.

:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

[ejoslin]

Mr.House wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I agree that in DAO the pacing could have been better. This could have been easily fixed by requiring x number of treaty quests be done before certain dialogs appeared. But then again, I was good about pacing my conversations as I didn't want things to dry up so I never had that issue.

Not on the first pt, I was very disapointed in my first pt. Everytime I talked to Leli it was all "i'm here for you!" and nothing else.

:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

Did you get her bug where you can never do her personal quest?  Oh, that is a terrible bug, which would explain why you like the DA2 romance better.  You didn't see ANY of her romance dialog aside from the initial flirt.

Edit: Leliana's entire romance was bugged if you started it at the first opportunity.  A few mods fix this (including mine) but console users had to play all sorts of games with feastday gifts to get her personal quest.

She also was bugged when you did her personal quest, the follow up conversation about Marjolaine pretty much guaranteed the romance starting.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 avril 2011 - 08:50 .

[Mr.House]

ejoslin wrote...

Did you get her bug where you can never do her personal quest?  Oh, that is a terrible bug, which would explain why you like the DA2 romance better.  You didn't see ANY of her romance dialog aside from the initial flirt.

No, I finshed her romance way before I even healed the arl and finished my last treaty quest.. SO ya, I had a huge gap of nothing, that's why I prefer the DA2 pacing.

[jlb524]

I didn't get the bug the first pt and completed the full romance.

I do like Leliana's romance a lot, though it took another playthrough with better pacing for me to really come to like it as much as I do now.

Oh, and I romanced her as a FemWarden and got absolutely zero party banter about the romance. That kinda sucked too.

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

I didn't get the bug the first pt and completed the full romance.

I do like Leliana's romance a lot, though it took another playthrough with better pacing for me to really come to like it as much as I do now.

Oh, and I romanced her as a FemWarden and got absolutely zero party banter about the romance. That kinda sucked too.

This, at least in DA2, no matter your gender people talk about your romance, in DAO if your female, no banter with Leli. It sucked.

[ejoslin]

Mr.House wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Did you get her bug where you can never do her personal quest?  Oh, that is a terrible bug, which would explain why you like the DA2 romance better.  You didn't see ANY of her romance dialog aside from the initial flirt.

No, I finshed her romance way before I even healed the arl and finished my last treaty quest.. SO ya, I had a huge gap of nothing, that's why I prefer the DA2 pacing.

Ah, see, DAO  could have paced their conversations like that.  I really didn't see a need as it takes away from personal choice, but it would be reasonably trivial to implement as well.  They didn't need to remove so much of the dialog and have you only able to talk to them at certain times in order to have pacing to the romances there.

[Wulfram]

"I'm here for you" is better than "You know, I'm starting to think Sandal is watching me".

[ejoslin]

You know, that's not leliana's greeting if she's in love, which is why I wondered if the romance hadn't been completed. If Lel is in love, she greets the warden, "Well, aren't you sweet and attentive?" If you're getting, "I'm here for you," the romance has not been completed.  There's more to it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 avril 2011 - 08:57 .

[jlb524]

I kept hearing "Well, aren't you sweet and attentive?" for the last 35 hours of my first DA:O pt.

[Mr.House]

ejoslin wrote...

You know, that's not leliana's greeting if she's in love, which is why I wondered if the romance hadn't been completed. If Lel is in love, she greets the warden, "Well, aren't you sweet and attentive?" If you're getting, "I'm here for you," the romance has not been completed.  There's more to it.

I'm going by rough memory since I have been playing alot of DA2, the point that I can't even remember what she says says alot.

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

I kept hearing "Well, aren't you sweet and attentive?" for the last 35 hours of my first DA:O pt.

And it all leads up to a couple of small conversations in the end with no kiss

[ejoslin]

jlb524 wrote...

I kept hearing "Well, aren't you sweet and attentive?" for the last 35 hours of my first DA:O pt.

Yeh, you weren't the person I initially asked and who made me wonder if he had hit the bug.

However, I do think the romances could have been paced by having certain dialogs only possible after x number of treaties.

[ejoslin]

Mr.House wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I kept hearing "Well, aren't you sweet and attentive?" for the last 35 hours of my first DA:O pt.

And it all leads up to a couple of small conversations in the end with no kiss

Well, it DOES lead to sex provided you didn't hit her other bug where her declaration/proposition doesn't trigger (though you can still have sex with her and kiss her at camp).

Just an FYI, the love interests (with the possible exception of Leliana) are supposed to kiss their LI at the Denerim city gates.  It's in the scripting comments, but they weren't put in for whatever reason.  Every one of Zevran's responses says, "prelude to a kiss."  It's a shame they weren't put in. Several (though not all) of Alistair's are supposed to, as are both of Morrigan's "in love" dialog trees.  There's no note in there about a kiss for Leliana, but that may be because her last line goes to both friends and lovers.

Edit: But my original point remains.  While DAO romances could have been paced better, they didn't need anything removed from them.  In fact, in DA2, if there wasn't the forced pacing, I would have burned through the romance dialog I'm sure because there was so little of it.  A few more conversations would have been welcome for sure!

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 avril 2011 - 09:04 .

[Mr.House]

Ya which leads to a terrible awkward scene that you can only get rid of for something better if you have a PC.

[ejoslin]

Oh, I wasn't crazy about the underweartastic sex for sure. I do like the way they were handled in DA2 better. But that's not a weakness with the romance dialog.