184 réponses à ce sujet

[Serelir]

I have to agree with Geekmom on this. I felt cheated by the companions in DA2. I'm playing through DAO again, and so enjoying chatting up Alistair about what we think of all the other companions, or having a philosophical discussion with Wynne, or trading cookie recipes with Sten. Maybe some people are impatient with dialogue, but it's the more, the merrier for me.

I kind of settled for Anders, too. I do like his character, but nothing compared to how Alistair and Zevran live on in my mind. When Hawke suggests that Aveline meet up with Donnic at the Hanged Man, I was looking forward to a rousing get together with my friends. Bitter was my disappointment to find myself sitting there with Donnic not able to think of anything to say. I mean, that is just not realistic. I can start a conversation about anything.

Anders moved in, and then... stood there in my house. Whenever I wanted to drag him into the bedroom, he said we had more important things to do (maybe it was Justice talking.) I just didn't bond with the characters the way I did in DAO. At the end I figured, well, maybe it's more realistic not to like everyone or have them think you're fascinating, but it made me feel disconnected from the story.

I admit that I had a mod that let me kiss my DAO partner whenever I wanted *blushes*

[jlb524]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: But my original point remains.  While DAO romances could have been paced better, they didn't need anything removed from them.  In fact, in DA2, if there wasn't the forced pacing, I would have burned through the romance dialog I'm sure because there was so little of it.  A few more conversations would have been welcome for sure!

What exactly do you feel was removed from them, beyond the DA2 romances having less overall dialog? 

I would have liked more dialog in the DA2 romances (I always want more dialog!) but I don't feel they were any lesser in the sense that I was unable to form an emotional attachment to them b/c they didn't have as much dialog as Origins.

[ejoslin]

jlb524 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: But my original point remains.  While DAO romances could have been paced better, they didn't need anything removed from them.  In fact, in DA2, if there wasn't the forced pacing, I would have burned through the romance dialog I'm sure because there was so little of it.  A few more conversations would have been welcome for sure!

What exactly do you feel was removed from them, beyond the DA2 romances having less overall dialog? 

I would have liked more dialog in the DA2 romances (I always want more dialog!) but I don't feel they were any lesser in the sense that I was unable to form an emotional attachment to them b/c they didn't have as much dialog as Origins.

That's exactly what I mean, though. The inability to question your LI about things.  Asking Zevran about his sexual history.  Asking Alistair where the romance is going, and if he breaks up, questioning him about that.  I don't think Leliana has an equivalent conversation.  All the love interests asking you about someone else you're seeing and what it means to your relationship.  DA2 had the squee moments, but not so much the building moments.  There was a point in Fenris' romance where I could not figure out if they were together (some banters suggested they were, others suggested they were not) which did not lead to feeling very into the romance.  Though the squee moments were wonderful!  I didn't feel the same emotional investment with DA2.  When Alistair dumped my warden, I cried.  When Fenris dumped Hawke, I was like, Hmmmmmm, ok.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 avril 2011 - 09:14 .

[noxsachi]

I honestly have to say I love Izzy way better than Leliana, and I totally didn't think that would be possible since I am a huge Leliana fangirl. I can't speak for the other DAII romances however as Anders is an abomination, Merrill is a maleficar, and Fenris is a jerk.

Overall Isabela's arc was better than Leliana's, but as I think people have pointed out is that DAO had the little things. Izzy's dialogue when you click on her or have her open chests never changes. There's no little silly convos where she tries to impress you with her tales of adventure. But still the final dialogue where shes like "I finally found something worth keeping and I am not losing it." before she kisses you was amazing.

So I guess overall I much prefer Izzy's romance to Leli's, but do miss the little things that Leli's had. Lets hope we get both in DAIII.

[Avilia]

The only problem for me with DA2 romances was lack of dialogue.  The time cuts don't help and neither does the pacing of the game.

Another 2 hours added would have been nice for that.  Some conversation between "Ah flirting...I can do that." and "Nom, noms...Gah!  Panic! (or alternatively "I love you madly and must move in now!!!".) Big chunks of actual relationship missing.

Not that I think DA:O was perfect it just had more interaction - erm, unless you ran out of interaction then it was pretty silent.  But still...

I can't comment directly on the Anders/Alistair comparison - I only finished Alistair once (erm, not literally) and haven't managed a whole Anders playthrough. 

I just think DA2 is a shorter game with a different focus that doesn't have time for standing about getting to know your companions in direct dialogue.  There are flying templars to kill!  Go go go, now!  There's another one!

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, its just disappointing to those who like some time to chat first.

Modifié par Avilia, 20 avril 2011 - 09:28 .

[Serelir]

I wanted to add that my feeling with DA2 is that a lot of the action happens while I'm out of the room. My companions get together and have a blast, and no one invited me to the party - I just hear about it in banter later.

[yoshibb]

Tuilinn Celeborne wrote...

I wanted to add that my feeling with DA2 is that a lot of the action happens while I'm out of the room. My companions get together and have a blast, and no one invited me to the party - I just hear about it in banter later.

Yeah that it is kind of weird when you think about it. My companions were out playing cards, drinking, and having fun and I was... sleeping? It's nice that my companions have a life but kind of annoying that Hawke doesn't seem to have one. Outside seeing everyone die around her. Fun, Fun!

[ejoslin]

Avilia wrote...

The only problem for me with DA2 romances was lack of dialogue.  The time cuts don't help and neither does the pacing of the game.

Another 2 hours added would have been nice for that.  Some conversation between "Ah flirting...I can do that." and "Nom, noms...Gah!  Panic! (or alternatively "I love you madly and must move in now!!!".) Big chunks of actual relationship missing.

Not that I think DA:O was perfect it just had more interaction - erm, unless you ran out of interaction then it was pretty silent.  But still...

I can't comment directly on the Anders/Alistair comparison - I only finished Alistair once (erm, not literally) and haven't managed a whole Anders playthrough. 

I just think DA2 is a shorter game with a different focus that doesn't have time for standing about getting to know your companions in direct dialogue.  There are flying templars to kill!  Go go go, now!  There's another one!

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, its just disappointing to those who like some time to chat first.

Oh, I have to admit that Anders romance set off warning bells for me.  In a major way, and I am not sure that was intended.

"Don't tease me! I am still a man!"  Make out.  skip to later that night.  Sexxors!  then, well, "I love you.  Baby, ummm, I need a new place to stay. Can I move in with you?"  A full blown romance, from first kiss to asking to move in, in less than 24 hours.  And the guy needs a place to stay.

Ultimate sleazy-guy-using-a-lover conversation, yet I'm sure it was not meant to be that way at all.  Had there been more building, it would not have come across that way.

Edit: And you know, another problem is, if you take Anders the way it came off to me, even if you break up with him, you've locked out the other male love interest for the rest of the game.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 avril 2011 - 09:59 .

[hoorayforicecream]

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, I have to admit that Anders romance set off warning bells for me.  In a major way, and I am not sure that was intended.

"Don't tease me! I am still a man!"  Make out.  skip to later that night.  Sexxors!  then, well, "I love you.  Baby, ummm, I need a new place to stay. Can I move in with you?"  A full blown romance, from first kiss to asking to move in, in less than 24 hours.  And the guy needs a place to stay.

Ultimate sleazy-guy-using-a-lover conversation, yet I'm sure it was not meant to be that way at all.  Had there been more building, it would not have come across that way.

Edit: And you know, another problem is, if you take Anders the way it came off to me, even if you break up with him, you've locked out the other male love interest for the rest of the game.

You know, I actually thought that it *was* intended that he was trying to pull a fast one on Hawke. Anders has got the whole tortured emotional rebel thing going on, but I kept thinking that maybe he was playing me the whole time, and later the feelings turned real.

[Avilia]

ejoslin wrote...

[snipped]

Oh, I have to admit that Anders romance set off warning bells for me.  In a major way, and I am not sure that was intended.

"Don't tease me! I am still a man!"  Make out.  skip to later that night.  Sexxors!  then, well, "I love you.  Baby, ummm, I need a new place to stay. Can I move in with you?"  A full blown romance, from first kiss to asking to move in, in less than 24 hours.  And the guy needs a place to stay.

Ultimate sleazy-guy-using-a-lover conversation, yet I'm sure it was not meant to be that way at all.  Had there been more building, it would not have come across that way.

Edit: And you know, another problem is, if you take Anders the way it came off to me, even if you break up with him, you've locked out the other male love interest for the rest of the game.

Intended or not, I got exactly the same feeling from it.  I found it more than a bit creepy actually.  It rang my "danger Will Robinson" bell.  This guy is looking for a place to lay low and, hey, here is Hawke all sexed up and convenient.  And that's not something that attracts me.

It is annoying that Anders (and Merrill I think?) both lock out the other LI's even if you decide its just a fling.  Makes me wonder if that's a mistake or deliberate.

Modifié par Avilia, 20 avril 2011 - 10:07 .

[Deified Data]

Agreeing, for the most part, with one exception: of all the romantic interests in the game, Anders was easily the least like Alistair. Intense, uber-serious, willing to do anything or kill anyone to get his way - Alistair would be aghast.

[ejoslin]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, I have to admit that Anders romance set off warning bells for me.  In a major way, and I am not sure that was intended.

"Don't tease me! I am still a man!"  Make out.  skip to later that night.  Sexxors!  then, well, "I love you.  Baby, ummm, I need a new place to stay. Can I move in with you?"  A full blown romance, from first kiss to asking to move in, in less than 24 hours.  And the guy needs a place to stay.

Ultimate sleazy-guy-using-a-lover conversation, yet I'm sure it was not meant to be that way at all.  Had there been more building, it would not have come across that way.

Edit: And you know, another problem is, if you take Anders the way it came off to me, even if you break up with him, you've locked out the other male love interest for the rest of the game.

You know, I actually thought that it *was* intended that he was trying to pull a fast one on Hawke. Anders has got the whole tortured emotional rebel thing going on, but I kept thinking that maybe he was playing me the whole time, and later the feelings turned real.

But there's no indication that his feelings turn real if that actually IS what it's about.  I did Anders romance once, and all my feelings about that scene were confirmed in Act 3 when you have him actively manipulating Hawke, the whole, "my love" and "If you love me you'll do this," crap.

But I find it hard to believe that a romance would be written that was just Hawke being used by Anders.  I think (though I have nothing to base this on) that Anders was supposed to love Hawke, but as Justice grew stronger, Anders was disappearing (if that makes sense).

Edit: I suppose there are things after he moves in that indicate caring.  It's just the whole initial things getting serious left such a bad taste in my mouth. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 avril 2011 - 10:40 .

[lizzbee]

What's even sadder to me than geekmom's disappointment is that, for the most part, I enjoy DA2's characters much more than DA:O's.  Fenris still hasn't unseated Zev in my heart, but given time, and enough dialog, it might easily happen.  I adore Anders far more than Alistair, even though they're both whiny as all hell.  Unfortunately, the voiced protagonist and the horrific Wheel of Hell have reduced character interaction to virtually zero.  Given the depth of all of the romances in DA:O, it's a travesty that the  more interesting characters are so short-sold in DA2, especially with the kind of time-span the game is supposed to cover.  Even a couple of non-voiced interstitial cut-scenes indicating some kind of intimacy or friendship might have eased some of the wham-bam romance feeling.

[Halo Quea]

I did eventually romance Anders with my Fem-Hawke. I don't know how you ladies feel, but everything about the relationship felt like a total manipulation. Too often it came off like "Either you're with me or against me" from Anders.

[Julilla]

I think DAO romances were better done. OK, at least Alistair was amazing. I was very upset and had to immediately re-play as a human when he dumped my Dalish elf. I couldn't believe it. It actually hurt my feelings! lol

Hawke's story is full of crazy emotional dysfunction. That said, the romance with Anders *and* Fenris could have been a glorious rollercoaster, but there wasn't *enough* of it to have quite the same impact that I thought the DAO Alistair romance had. What was there was really great...but the emotional click was not as solid for me in this game. A lot of times I felt like I learned more about my companions through their random conversations with each other during travel than I could have with them one on one. And honestly, if this game was going to span that kind of time period, there seems little excuse not to really put effort into the depth of relationships and character backstory with *all* of the companions, not just the LI. It just shouldn't be that I am wondering why Anders suddenly wants to move in. I should have had enough conversation with him to sense whether I was being played or not. And I should have a sense that Fenris really does want to be with me so that I can stick out three years of bupkis without feeling like I have no self esteem for chasing after him. You know? Just...more. That's what I needed. And not in a bloody codex entry. Seriously.

[hoorayforicecream]

Halo Quea wrote...

I did eventually romance Anders with my Fem-Hawke. I don't know how you ladies feel, but everything about the relationship felt like a total manipulation. Too often it came off like "Either you're with me or against me" from Anders.

It does keep perfectly with his character though... he's really, really into that whole thing, and it doesn't necessarily manifest in healthy ways. I am actually really impressed by Jennifer Hepler's (Anders' writer) comment a while back about how she viewed Anders as a person who is mentally ill. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it with that perspective.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Avilia wrote...

It is annoying that Anders (and Merrill I think?) both lock out the other LI's even if you decide its just a fling.  Makes me wonder if that's a mistake or deliberate.

It's deliberate (devs confirmed). Certain romances were programmed to supersede other romances. :/

No option to talk to the LIs afterwards, nothing...

Honestly, the romances were...nice, but I didn't feel as emotionally invested in them as I did for DAO. There simply wasn't enough in DA2 for me to really get to know my friends and develop feelings of attachment. I appreciated the fact that this time around DA had companions recognising 'tragic loss' and talking to the PC about it, but I really really miss the camaraderie of DAO. It's a problem I had with Awakening as well...I just wish the conversation system was fleshed out more, or had opportunities to talk outside of triggers and quest events. :/

[Maria Caliban]

jlb524 wrote...

Oh, and I romanced her as a FemWarden and got absolutely zero party banter about the romance. That kinda sucked too.

I wouldn't be surprised if a someone who played a FemWarden who romanced Alistiar finds DA 2 lacking compared to someone who played a FamWarden who romanced Leliana. I loved Leliana, but Alistiar was obviously an important part of the plot, and there was an entire drama built around him being king (or not) and the PC being queen or dumped at the end. Plus you could flirt with Zevran and he'd react and there were several banters about your relationship.

While I think all the love interests in DA:O were good, the straight only romances felt more important and seemed to have more content.

In DA II, when I'm facing the Arishok and Isabela burst through the door with the Tome of Kuslin, it feels all sorts of romantic and important. I find it strange that the first time I get an 'Oh! My knight in shinning armor!' moment in fiction is with... Isabela.

[Asdara]

I don't like that certain romances seal off others - I think the dynamic that was present in DA:O where a confrontation arises from one party or the other eventually, at a point when things could be considered to be getting serious was far more engaging and allowed for a greater spectrum of experience with companions in a single gameplay, while still giving motivation to repeat.

I think the reason we 'lost' that is because they do the time-skip with the Hawke story, but I don't think it needed to be so complete... or hell, give us some fill-epilog more than it applies strictly to the main plot. Varric can give us some flavor text about "the Champion and so-and-so grew closer" or "things were rocky between the two opposites, but they seemed to work" ... eh, we'd probably hate that too actually.

Still. More, more, more, and more casual contact and pacing for companion relationships. It's the strongest draw of the series for me - not the only draw, but top of the list with a star next to it.

Btw... someone above said it: the Alistair break up for a unspoiled run with an elf anything is Brutal. I felt it, I freaked, I replayed every which way from previous saves and finally I looked it up... and then swapped my life for the death of the Archdemon to end my misery. Another time I loved Zevran, and wondered why my other character even bothered with the whiny princeling. Back and forth, good times. Doing the same with Anders and Fenris now, but it feel more... I don't know "limited" is maybe what I am looking for, more obviously so rather - because all things are limited - not being able to converse whenever is paired so badly with having to make a trip to specific location to converse. You have to think about it from a player perspective to execute and it just doesn't feel as natural.

[Nyreen]

 I agree with the author of the article, but especially the part where she describes how WE CAN'T EVEN HAVE CASUAL CONVERSATION WITH COMPANIONS ANYMORE. <_<

[ejoslin]

You know, the biggest issue I have about being locked out of Fenris' romance if you have sex with Anders is... it doesn't make sense. You have a 3 year period of being single -- what difference should it make if you have a one night stand with Anders and break up with him immediately?

[Nyreen]

Halo Quea wrote...

I did eventually romance Anders with my Fem-Hawke. I don't know how you ladies feel, but everything about the relationship felt like a total manipulation. Too often it came off like "Either you're with me or against me" from Anders.

To be fair…Anders did warn you about a dozen times that he was doomed, before the relationship became serious. That doesn't excuse his manipulative behavior, but there were "warning signs". Hallucinations, voices in his head, violent tendencies, mood swings. You were just too far in love.

You should have realizd you were in an abusive relationship and sought professional help.  

[Viyu]

yoshibb wrote...

Funny I felt I knew Alistair more in 6 months than I did 7 years with Fenris. I liked the companion quests but I think I like just talking about random things at the campsite more.

I did too. Do you want to know why? Because it gave the characters dimension, it made them feel like they had something more on their mind than the blight 24/7. Pretty much all party banter in DA2 is politically charged pro-mage v.s. pro-chantry campaign. The characters seem incredibly 1 dimensional and one track minded, with the exception of Isabella and Varric. Because that's ALL they can seem to talk about. <_<

[Addai]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

I did eventually romance Anders with my Fem-Hawke. I don't know how you ladies feel, but everything about the relationship felt like a total manipulation. Too often it came off like "Either you're with me or against me" from Anders.

It does keep perfectly with his character though... he's really, really into that whole thing, and it doesn't necessarily manifest in healthy ways. I am actually really impressed by Jennifer Hepler's (Anders' writer) comment a while back about how she viewed Anders as a person who is mentally ill. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it with that perspective.

Why would you ever get involved with someone like that, when you go into it knowingly?  That's the question I can't answer.  I've only gotten past the "can I move in can I" scene and had to abandon the character.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 avril 2011 - 01:01 .

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

Why would you ever get involved with someone like that, when you go into it knowingly?

You could ask that of every, last BioWare love interest.